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Which Video Processor (No Head To Head Comparisons In This Forum)  

post #1 of 73
8/10/06 at 10:28am
Thread Starter 
I’m having a hard time nailing down a Video Processor to seriously look at due to the fact there is no way for me to complete head to head comparisons. And it looks like I’m not the only one in that boat as I can’t find very many head to head comparisons on the Video Processor Forum in general. Guess it’s a bit of a niche market. So I find myself looking for the trusted AVS Forum member opinions.....

I’m looking at purchasing the 40†Sony XBR2 or XBR3 for my living room. And because I’m an electronics geek (So My Wife Says) I’m thinking about purchasing a Video Processor too. Now from what I’ve seen & read most of the processors mentioned in this forum are of what I would consider the higher end of the spectrum for home theater use at least. Meaning that they can handle 1920 x 1080p @ 60Hz and offer some very nice improvements to the signal / picture. 1920 x 1080p @ 60Hz is a must for me because that’s the native resolution of the soon to be mine XBR2 & XBR3. I’m only looking at hooking 2 things up to the LCD panel via the HDMI inputs. 1) My HD STB, and 2) a Blu-Ray or HD DVD player (This May Be The PS3 Depending On, Well A Bunch Of Factors).

So my question is what should I be looking at…

1) Algolith Dragonfly
2) Algolith Mosquito
3) Lumagen VisionPro HDP
4) DVDO iScan VP30
5) Calibre Vantage HD
6) NEC TheaterSync
7) Crystalio 2
8) Faroudja DVP-1080 HD

I’m not wanting to spend a arm & a leg or perhaps sell a kidney, on a video processor so I’m thinking 7 & 8 are out of the question as well as a 1 & 2 combination. The rest seem to be in that $2,000 - $3,000 range (Correct me if I’m wrong). So my question is what would be the best one to seriously consider. I’m looking for the following…

1) Future Friendly Hardware & Software (If I’m spending $2K - $3K on this thing I want it to be around for a little while)
2) Bang For Your Buck (Significant visual enhancement with limit financial outflow)
3) A Good Name (I want it to be a reputable company (Hence why I picked the Sony XBR))
4) I need my wife to fall in love with it! (This may be the hardest to fulfill)

All your thoughts, suggestions, and inputs are greatly appreciated!

Thanks In Advance!
Marcus

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post #2 of 73
8/10/06 at 10:51am
These threads include quite a few comparisons.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=649108

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=698891

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=704674
post #3 of 73
8/10/06 at 2:46pm
Marcus,

The DVDO VP30 doesn't do proper HD processing - 1080i is effectively scaled rather than deinterlaced to 1080p. It's trump card is the ABT102 card option, which takes it to the top of the class for SD processing.

The Algolith Mosquito is the best video noise reducer yet, but doesn't do de-interlacing on it's own.

The Lumagens don't have as good VIDEO de-interlacing as the others, nor audio switching/time delay, but they are the best value for HD processing, and have good scaling.

The NEC doesn't accept 576i over HDMI.

BR, Nick
post #4 of 73
8/11/06 at 12:30am
Nick's touched on what makes this such a personal decision.
They are all compromised in different ways. It's very difficult to put one out in the lead, all we can do is point out what the compromises are with each processor. That information is available in many threads.

All sorts of different compromises are present - lack of calibration options, lack of efficient jaggy removal, lack of inputs, lack of proper HD deinterlacing, etc, etc.
Some feature a bias towards film-based material, others - video.

If it was me (with my viewing habits and my wants/desires), I'd either be going for the Lumagen HDP/HDQ or the Crystalio II. Where the CII is less compromised IMO but more money.
post #5 of 73
8/11/06 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick
Marcus,

The DVDO VP30 doesn't do proper HD processing - 1080i is effectively scaled rather than deinterlaced to 1080p. It's trump card is the ABT102 card option, which takes it to the top of the class for SD processing.
Just in case you haven't read the review of Dragonfly in Secrets, Ofer opines that Dragonfly (HQV) performs slightly better SD deinterlacing than ABT-102.

In another thread, Tom Huffman prefers Vantage-HD (HQV) slightly over Optoma HD3000 (VXP).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=704674

So, you may wish to look for an HQV-based processor if PQ is your pure concern.

I'm using the HDP Pro which features and firmware update are terribly good. SD video-deinterlacing is its weakness, though. So is the DVI connections. You may wish to head for HDQ instead or wait for the Radience XS (HQV) for the best of both worlds.

Just my 2 cents.

:)

AK
post #6 of 73
8/11/06 at 3:30pm
I recently decided to go with the Lumagen HDQ as a way to relatively inexpensively bridge to the HQV-powered/HDMI 1.3 processors that are my ultimate goal. I figure such a beast is 12-18 months away, and I simply cannot survive that long without a scaler in my system (chorus of 'oooooohhhhhh').
post #7 of 73
8/12/06 at 6:44am
Don't assume that HQV is or will remain the best. Gennum has not sit still. I suspect the ABT102 will be improved as well. Things change quickly in the processing chip industry, while things change slowly in the video processor box industry.

I applaud DVDO for providing the user with the ability to change chips as they develop better ones.

I applaud Lumagen for its ability to continually and quickly add features by down loadable software to its products and solve problems that users report. They have delayed new product to make current poduct right.

I am still using my last generation Lumagen. My only real wish is for much better video deinterlacing.

To my standards, there is nothing chip wise, right now, that meets my 480i video deinterlacing wishes. Certainly not the HQV, not DCDI, which is really as good as anything out there now, hell Crystalio has the faroudja chip with DCDI and the Gennum chip in the same box, letting the user choose which one to use.

Gennum is the power house in this industry, they have the resources and talent to continually make their chips better. I really like the idea of the giving the user the ability to change chips.
post #8 of 73
8/12/06 at 6:57am
Mark,

You mean anyone buying a Gennum-based VP could have the processing chip upgraded as time flies by or the algorithms in the chip gets updated by downloadable firmware? The former, I guess, is quite unlikely ...

While DVDO's idea is great, it lacks the all important HD deinterlacing that I need. Actually, I thought about the idea of adding a VP30 in the chain and let ABT-102 do the SD video deinterlacing leaving everything else to HDP Pro. I abandoned the idea when I run of of sockets for new boxes and realised that trading the HDP Pro for Radience XS would mean roughly the same order of costs.

:)

AK
post #9 of 73
8/12/06 at 7:49am
Quote:
hell Crystalio has the faroudja chip with DCDI and the Gennum chip in the same box, letting the user choose which one to use.
Yup, and it looks GREAT! I am really having a difficult time finding any fault at all with the Crystalio 2, and I'm really looking...:)
post #10 of 73
8/12/06 at 8:44am
Yea Bob. But the fact that the F is perhaps better than what is presently in the Gennum bothers me. That level of video deinterlacing quality is not acceptable to me. However, I am sure that Gennum will make it a LOT better.
post #11 of 73
8/12/06 at 8:51am
Mark
When you're worried about the DCDi, have you seen it in action in C2? Even on Crystalio 1?
It's simply nothing like other DCDi solutions (DVD players/Projectors/etc). It's stunning.
Don't dismiss it based on other implementations - Pixel Magic have worked wonders.

If you have seen it, can you explain what artifacts you're seeing with 480i video-based material?
post #12 of 73
8/12/06 at 10:52am
Quote:
Yea Bob. But the fact that the F is perhaps better than what is presently in the Gennum bothers me.
Who said DCDi is better? I know that PMS included it as an option, but in all honesty many of us C2 owners find that the Gennum processing is better, and I think that says a lot considering how well PMS implemented DCDi. I personally don't use DCDi at all.
post #13 of 73
8/12/06 at 12:06pm
Based on what I've seen from the Vantage HD (Realta), Optoma HD3000 (Gennum), and the progressive output of the Panasonic S97 (DCDi), I think that the Gennum egdes out the DCDi, but only by a very small margin and only on film-based SD material. The Realta brings up the rear, but again by a very small margin. The differences that I see in film-based SD deinterlacing are miniscule.

Those interested in getting into external video processors should really consentrate on other aspects of performance (HD deinterlacing, connectivity, and calibration features). In these areas the differences are often profound.
post #14 of 73
8/12/06 at 12:08pm
Hi Tom. We are talking video, not film based. I watch SD and HD sports, all at 1080p on my CRT FP.
post #15 of 73
8/12/06 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butt_Love
I’m looking at purchasing the 40†Sony XBR2 or XBR3 for my living room. [..]
So my question is what should I be looking at…

1) Algolith Dragonfly[..]
3) Lumagen VisionPro HDP
4) DVDO iScan VP30
5) Calibre Vantage HD
[..]

I’m not wanting to spend a arm & a leg or perhaps sell a kidney, on a video processor so I’m thinking 7 & 8 are out of the question as well as a 1 & 2 combination. The rest seem to be in that $2,000 - $3,000 range (Correct me if I’m wrong). So my question is what would be the best one to seriously consider. I’m looking for the following…

1) Future Friendly Hardware & Software (If I’m spending $2K - $3K on this thing I want it to be around for a little while)
2) Bang For Your Buck (Significant visual enhancement with limit financial outflow)[..]
Marcus - A few thoughts for you, now that I've edited your list a bit... ;)

1) Bang-for-your-buck: Few people can sriously argue that the Vision HDP (not the Pro) is the current value leader. However, being DVI-based, it is not future friendly, though Lumagen has done a phenomenal job keeping it current.

2) Future friendly: The VantageHD probably takes this since it does HD processing, and it has HDMI ports. However, it has a few detractions to it, as well. See the big thread on it for some discussion here.

3) Limiting cash outflow: ditch the Sony XBR, unless you just really like the look of it. If you are spending the money on a processor, the V2500 series will be much more budget friendly, while not giving you excess capabilities for which you will have no use.

So, now the basic question is what source material do you watch and what source units are you needing to feed into the TV? And, oh, yeah, expect this list to change in a bit over a month's time when a few eagerly anticipated models should be announced, at a minimum.

Later,
Bill
post #16 of 73
8/12/06 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich
Don't assume that HQV is or will remain the best. Gennum has not sit still. [...]

Gennum is the power house in this industry, they have the resources and talent to continually make their chips better. I really like the idea of the giving the user the ability to change chips.
Mark, do you know something about Gennum the rest of us is not knowing yet?
post #17 of 73
8/12/06 at 2:35pm
Quote:
We are talking video, not film based.
My comments apply equally for video-based sources. In fact, from what I've seen performance comparisons between Gennum, HQV, and DCDi are even harder to make here, because the HQV's SD video performance is better than its film performance, at least in the Vantage implementation.

In fact, the only processor I've seen whose SD video performance is substantially different from (and inferior to) any of these options is the Sil504 in the pre-ABT VP30 and, I believe, the current Lumagens (which I haven't actually seen).
post #18 of 73
8/12/06 at 2:48pm
The current Lumagens use the Sil 504 for 480i film and video deinterlacing even in those Lumagens installed in aircraft. :)
post #19 of 73
8/12/06 at 5:11pm
Is there any consensus on what is best for sports on cable. I am running an Panny 900 and had an old videon that just died and would really like to make the move. I was leaning toward the DVDo vp30 with the new 102 chip as a value buy but without HD processing it seems to leave much to be desired for future use. What is the consensus on the best current technology for the money for 480i to 720p? Depending on price I may go value now and wait for the ever changing technology to make my decision when everything is HD in 09. Thanks
post #20 of 73
8/12/06 at 5:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k
2) Future friendly: The VantageHD probably takes this since it does HD processing, and it has HDMI ports. However, it has a few detractions to it, as well. See the big thread on it for some discussion here.
Bill,

Mind summarising some of the detractions of Vantage-HD for the crowd here? Following the big thread is just too difficult.

Thx. in advance.

I haven't dumped the option of adding a Vantage-HD as a pure de-interlacer yet ...

:)

AK
post #21 of 73
8/12/06 at 7:02pm
What are the disadvantages in using a Gennum based prepro such as the Anthem D2 as your video processor, compared to using a dedicated video processor solution?
post #22 of 73
8/12/06 at 7:21pm
There aren't any. The D2 is an audio processor/current gen video processor, all in one box.
post #23 of 73
8/12/06 at 10:15pm
Quote:
Mind summarising some of the detractions of Vantage-HD for the crowd here?
The only downside I've seen is relatively weak SD film performance. It's not bad, just not quite as good as the Gennum or SIL504 alternatives. Otherwsie, it's a great unit. It has gray scale controls, noise reduction, test patterns (next week), and the best HD performance I've seen.

Quote:
Is there any consensus on what is best for sports on cable.
If you mean HD broadcast, I would say one of the Realta-based processors (Vantage HD or NEC Theatersync). If you mean SD broadcast, I don't really think it matters a whole lot. DVDO will update their processors in the upcoming few weeks or months, if you can wait.
post #24 of 73
8/13/06 at 3:35am
Wow, Tom - this is totally against what I'm seeing with SD.
I don't know much about the Optoma HD3000, and the Panasonic S97, but when comparing standalone scalers there is a huge difference between solutions with SD Video Sports.

Basically SiI504 is worst. So that's the Lumagen and VP30 (without the ABT102 card).
Then you get differences from implementation to implementation.

But Crystalio 1 (probably the best implementation of DCDi to date) is really really good.

The ABT102 comes in pretty high, but I haven't had the pleasure of an ideal demo yet, mainly because it's not for me due to lack of HD processing.

Then there are slight differences between HQV/VXP, so it's all about the surrounding package - which model gives you the features you need.
I think it's impossible to score these new-generation processors based on deinterlacing performace alone any more.

Unfortunately I don't know of anyone in the UK with a Dragonfly yet, so I'm yet to see one.
post #25 of 73
8/13/06 at 7:50am
The reason I said that it doesn't matter much is that the quality of the signal over SD broadcast is often so poor (as least in my market) that any differences that may exist between the performance of scalers is overwhelmed.
post #26 of 73
8/13/06 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman
The reason I said that it doesn't matter much is that the quality of the signal over SD broadcast is often so poor (as least in my market) that any differences that may exist between the performance of scalers is overwhelmed.
And I guess you were comparing 3 new-generation products too.
I guess the bigger differences are with new versus the SiI504.

It must be said that even with this drawback, the Lumagen HDP still manages to hold it's own because of the calibration and HD features that have been added over the years.

We get wildly variable transmissions too, but the BBC is consistently good over Freeview and Sky.
post #27 of 73
8/13/06 at 8:59am
Thanks for the input guys. It sounds like the quality of SD cable is so low that a chip may not make enough difference to spend $2k to improve it. I will probably try to get a VP30 with ABT102 at a decent price to last me until 09 when we go all HD, as it appears to be the best option for the money. Tom you suggested that DVDO may upgrade their processor in the next few months. I have also read that some people believe they will introduce new products at Cedia. Hopefully they will upgrade to include true HD and then they will have a purchaser. Waiting is difficult as next years model is always better, still it seems we are really getting close to having it all as in the crystalio II, still 3k is a big jump. Is there such a thing as a street price on the crystalio? I did a quick search on google and didn't find much.
post #28 of 73
8/13/06 at 9:49am
I think the C2 is so new and in short supply that there isn't much discount available, however, phoning is always going to get the best deal.
Re: DVDO - at least when you come to upgrade, there'll be a good official trade-in offer - that's how many have ended up with the VP30 in the first place.

Cedia is likely to shed some light on the next DVDO products.
post #29 of 73
8/13/06 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by uzun
What are the disadvantages in using a Gennum based prepro such as the Anthem D2 as your video processor, compared to using a dedicated video processor solution?
Price, mostly.
post #30 of 73
8/13/06 at 2:50pm
Price mostly? If you have a D1, the audio processor only, for $1700 MSRP they make it into a D2, which adds the video processor. That makes it the cheapest new generation VP around. Buy a D1 used and you can do the same thing.
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