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Samsung HLS-5679W LED DLP Owners Thread (*NO PRICE TALK) - Page 7

post #181 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Hester View Post

I have closed the Aperture and made various setting changes in the SP Actuator Sub Menu but the black level still remains quite high when viewing the set in a dark room.

Any ideas welcomed.


Hopefully, someone with a 5679 can get a professional calibration soon and then comment here on if the black levels were improved or one of the calibrators here can give a free tip. ;-)
post #182 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Hester View Post

I have closed the Aperture and made various setting changes in the SP Actuator Sub Menu but the black level still remains quite high when viewing the set in a dark room.

Any ideas welcomed.

I have not looked at this model, but I would assume it is very similar to my HL-S6188W. Quite high to me is an overstatement if you have closed the iris and set brightness correctly, but black levels are definitely noticeable on all micro-panel displays in a dark room. It is generally best to have a small amount of room lighting to offset this with an RPTV. You may also find the display is too dim for daytime viewing if you reduce the iris to minimum.

The human eye is a very sensitive device and will respond to very few photons. The contrast ratio I see with the best micro panel display devices rivals film, but it will not go to true black like some CRT displays that can turn off. However, CRT does have severe linearity problems when this is attempted. Anyone who desires the darkest black levels along with changing room light levels should consider a display with a more advanced iris capability.
post #183 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Hester View Post

I have closed the Aperture and made various setting changes in the SP Actuator Sub Menu but the black level still remains quite high when viewing the set in a dark room.

Any ideas welcomed.

Wesley, are you sure the 5679 even has an aperture? I am not sure it does. The light engine on the LED is completly different from the 87/88 series. The setting may be in the service menu, but not actually do anything. That would acount for the 5679 having a contrast rated at 4000:1 while the 87/88 series is 10000:1. Do you see any change in black level when you change the DB setting?
post #184 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

Wesley, are you sure the 5679 even has an aperture? I am not sure it does. The light engine on the LED is completly different from the 87/88 series. The setting may be in the service menu, but not actually do anything. That would acount for the 5679 having a contrast rated at 4000:1 while the 87/88 series is 10000:1. Do you see any change in black level when you change the DB setting?

If that is true it is a huge problem. My HL-S6188W is far too bright without iris control. I would struggle recommending any micro-panel display that does not have some degree of iris control.
post #185 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

If that is true it is a huge problem. My HL-S6188W is far too bright without iris control. I would struggle recommending any micro-panel display that does not have some degree of iris control.

I agree. I have an HLP4674, and my only issue with it is the inability to control the light output with an iris. It looks great when there is a high level of ambient light, but I cannot watch the set in low light levels. It is to bright, and the black level is poor. The only Sammy DLP sets that for sure have an iris (Dynamic Black in TI speak) are the HLR and HLS 1080P lamp based sets. The only reason I can think the CR on the 5679 is rated so much lower than the lamp based models is the lack of the DB/iris.
post #186 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

If that is true it is a huge problem. My HL-S6188W is far too bright without iris control. I would struggle recommending any micro-panel display that does not have some degree of iris control.

umr, is it possible in the SM on the 87/88 series to 'fix' the iris to a user selected position? i.e. can the user set it to 73% closed or 25% closed? Also does it allow the user to change how agressive the iris is when it is in dynamic mode?
post #187 of 2935
I don't see why an led set would need an iris. Just turn down the output of the leds. The iris is to control the light output from a fixed source. What am I missing?
post #188 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

umr, is it possible in the SM on the 87/88 series to 'fix' the iris to a user selected position? i.e. can the user set it to 73% closed or 25% closed? Also does it allow the user to change how agressive the iris is when it is in dynamic mode?

Yes. Those are all possible to some extent. I believe this is a required adjustment for these displays to yield a quality image in low light situations.
post #189 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejackaz View Post

I don't see why an led set would need an iris. Just turn down the output of the leds. The iris is to control the light output from a fixed source. What am I missing?

This would only work if they designed the power supply to work that way. It would be great if they did, but I would be surprised this will be found in a first generation display.
post #190 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejackaz View Post

I don't see why an led set would need an iris. Just turn down the output of the leds. The iris is to control the light output from a fixed source. What am I missing?

As I recall, the TI DLP white paper that describes the LED powered light engine specifically mentions using variable output from the LED's to achive high contrast with the need for an electro-mechanical device (i.e. iris). But as umr points out, it is doubtful that made it in to a first generation LED product.
post #191 of 2935
umr:

I have been considering some type of room lighting in front of the set, behind the seating area so that the room isn't completely dark but not bright either. Also, some type of light that will not compete with the TV either. Any suggestions or recommendations?

Unfortunately, the 5679 doesn't have a dynamic iris and from what I have observed so far, that is NOT a good thing.


f300v10:

I believe the 5679 doesn't have an aperture to close too because the settings, even though they appear to 'work' in the Service Menu, do not seem to produce any significant changes in overall black level to the screen. The SB (or 'Source Black' <-I'm guessing here) does seem to control the sources black level to the screen but of course its lowest/darkest setting will only be as low/dark as the overall darkest black level output from the set.


applejackaz:

I will be going back into the Service Menu to look around for any and all things pertaining to the LEDs but I don't recall seeing anything though.
post #192 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Hester View Post

umr:

I have been considering some type of room lighting in front of the set, behind the seating area so that the room isn't completely dark but not bright either. Also, some type of light that will not compete with the TV either. Any suggestions or recommendations?

Unfortunately, the 5679 doesn't have a dynamic iris and from what I have observed so far, that is NOT a good thing.

....

You can use any light source, but I would be careful about causing reflections off the screen. I use a small light to the side of mine or a hall light.

Based on your observations it sounds like a good bet this display does not have an iris. That is a huge limitation. Most Samsungs are very bright. Without a lamp or iris control I would find it unacceptable. I would guess you are running over 100 fL on the brightest sceens.
post #193 of 2935
Wesley, the best way to improve the apparent black level is to put a light source behind the TV, i.e. backlighting. I am sure there are threads here at AVS that deal with that topic.
post #194 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

Wesley, the best way to improve the apparent black level is to put a light source behind the TV, i.e. backlighting. I am sure there are threads here at AVS that deal with that topic.

Best is probably extreme. However, many people do like backlighing. I had an Ideal-Lume lamp behind mine and found it to be less desirable than my other options. It is best to experiment with these things and find what you like best.
post #195 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

This would only work if they designed the power supply to work that way. It would be great if they did, but I would be surprised this will be found in a first generation display.

Could you elaborate on that? They just need to change the duty cycle (on/off ratio) of the flashing leds to get less light output. Is it the fact that the power supply load would be variable that bothers you?

The fact that the 5679 has an aperature menu does confirm that they are not using duty cycle modulation to control black level. Too bad. Maybe next year. I will look further at the Mits 57831.
post #196 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by LesMoss View Post

Could you elaborate on that? They just need to change the duty cycle (on/off ratio) of the flashing leds to get less light output. Is it the fact that the power supply load would be variable that bothers you?

The fact that the 5679 has an aperature menu does confirm that they are not using duty cycle modulation to control black level. Too bad. Maybe next year. I will look further at the Mits 57831.

I don't want to speculate since I have not seen the schematics or this display in action. I am sure different design options to reduce the light going to the panels are plausible, but it does not sound like this display has implemented any of them. Once Samsung issues the schematics and I have a chance to work on one I should be able to determine what the options are with this model.

Here is a link if you want to read about some of the issues here. It sounds to me that the color shift from altering the duty cycle is a potentially huge problem. Based on some of the research I have read color performance of the LED's is a potentially huge problem.

http://www.digitaltvdesignline.com/h...1503069&pgno=2
post #197 of 2935
I was talking to the company I preordered the hls5679w from and he told me that Samsung had discontinued this TV?!? Has anyone heard of this?
post #198 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by m2wing View Post

I was talking to the company I preordered the hls5679w from and he told me that Samsung had discontinued this TV?!? Has anyone heard of this?

It sounds more like a bait and switch Internet dealer.
post #199 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I don't want to speculate since I have not seen the schematics or this display in action. I am sure different design options to reduce the light going to the panels are plausible, but it does not sound like this display has implemented any of them. Once Samsung issues the schematics and I have a chance to work on one I should be able to determine what the options are with this model.

Here is a link if you want to read about some of the issues here. It sounds to me that the color shift from altering the duty cycle is a potentially huge problem. Based on some of the research I have read color performance of the LED's is a potentially huge problem.

http://www.digitaltvdesignline.com/h...1503069&pgno=2

I am overwhelmed by the technical knowhow and expertise, probably too technical for me but could you elaborate on the color banding issue, the fact that the Movie Mode does away with it completely and do you think professional calibration or tweking the other modes at home with the DVE disc could improve it.
Thank You.
post #200 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by luidoly View Post

I am overwhelmed by the technical knowhow and expertise, probably too technical for me but could you elaborate on the color banding issue, the fact that the Movie Mode does away with it completely and do you think professional calibration or tweking the other modes at home with the DVE disc could improve it.
Thank You.

Color banding can be caused by many things. I find the key factors are usually insufficient bit depth, gamma, poor gray scale tracking and color clipping. It would be next to impossible for a person armed with only DVE to fix these. Properly calibrating a Samsung DLP requires me to use a spectroradiometer with software specially modified for custom calculations, two video generators and various test and reference DVD's to verify every problem is resolved.
post #201 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Color banding can be caused by many things. I find the key factors are usually insufficient bit depth, gamma, poor gray scale tracking and color clipping. It would be next to impossible for a person armed with only DVE to fix these. Properly calibrating a Samsung DLP requires me to use a spectroradiometer with software specially modified for custom calculations, two video generators and various test and reference DVD's to verify every problem is resolved.

Thank you, that is what I thought specifically the last three, but I'm still mystified how well the Movie Mode deals with it in all types of feeds and the fact that HD feeds don't show color banding and yet SD feeds from Direct TV HD receiver are next to impossible to watch without switching to Movie Mode. I am using only HDMI inputs to the TV, one from the DVD recorder and the other one from the Direct TV receiver 10-250.
Thanks
post #202 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by luidoly View Post

Thank you, that is what I thought specifically the last three, but I'm still mystified how well the Movie Mode deals with it in all types of feeds and the fact that HD feeds don't show color banding and yet SD feeds from Direct TV HD receiver are next to impossible to watch without switching to Movie Mode. I am using only HDMI inputs to the TV, one from the DVD recorder and the other one from the Direct TV receiver 10-250.
Thanks

Movie mode is the only one that is close without a professional calibration. The other modes have serious issues. Movie is not correct, but at least it is not an abomination.
post #203 of 2935
OT: For Wesley Hester (not sure how to attach a photo)

Here is how I solved my back light problem.
post #204 of 2935
OT: this time maybe
LL
post #205 of 2935
Well, I had (rather cleverly, I thought) convinced my wife that moving our HL-P5063 500 miles with us was a bad idea -- that just buying a new set would be less risky. And I've been waiting for this LED-based model to come out before making a decision. From what I'm reading, sticking with the bulb-based technology may be a better bet right now. Or am I misinterpreting the many comments here about the color banding issue?
post #206 of 2935
Well, I had (rather cleverly, I thought) convinced my wife that moving our HL-P5063 500 miles with us was a bad idea -- that just buying a new set would be less risky. And I've been waiting for this LED-based model to come out before making a decision. From what I'm reading, sticking with the bulb-based technology may be a better bet right now. Or am I misinterpreting the many comments here about the color banding issue?[/quote]

I'm in the same boat. My crt is going to Phoenix to replace a burned up set.
If the black level problem can't be solved, and the red push adjusted out, I have to cancel my order.
post #207 of 2935
Pexster,

From what I've read here, color banding is not a problem when using the movie mode.
post #208 of 2935
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejackaz View Post

If the black level problem can't be solved, and the red push adjusted out, I have to cancel my order.

I have to clarify before this gets out of control.

1) There is no "black level" problem. As far as I know, Wesley and myself are the only ones trying to maximum the black level. Nobody has compared the black level to the other HLS 1080p models to see how they compare - they might be the same. Probably not, due to the contrast ratio difference, but until we see some hard evidence we won't know what the actual difference is. IMO the black level is good just not excellent.

2) There is no "red push" problem. Someone mentioned that a couple of the pre-production sets as CES (that was back in January!) had some red push but another set at the show did not. There is no problem that cannot be resolved w/ a user calibration.

3) As hjw noted, the "banding" problem can be addressed by changing to Movie mode.
post #209 of 2935
Thanks klac for putting things in perspective. I am used to slight internal reflected light from the crt but being able to set the color decoder is a must for me. The one 56" bulb I saw in a store was a red mess.
post #210 of 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by klac View Post

I have to clarify before this gets out of control.

1) There is no "black level" problem. As far as I know, Wesley and myself are the only ones trying to maximum the black level. Nobody has compared the black level to the other HLS 1080p models to see how they compare - they might be the same. Probably not, due to the contrast ratio difference, but until we see some hard evidence we won't know what the actual difference is. IMO the black level is good just not excellent.

2) There is no "red push" problem. Someone mentioned that a couple of the pre-production sets as CES (that was back in January!) had some red push but another set at the show did not. There is no problem that cannot be resolved w/ a user calibration.

3) As hjw noted, the "banding" problem can be addressed by changing to Movie mode.

Same here Klac, the color banding, is an issue that I don't see with HD feeds I can use any of the other modes and it is stunning in addition the prominence of the color banding that I see is when watching Direct TV movie feeds Non HD, I don't even see it on OTA stations thru Direct TV or captured by the TV Tuner, I don't see it when playing DVD's in any mode, of course the Movie setting is ideal for those, so much of this has to do with what you feed the set. Just to remind everyone the main reasons that this set appealed to me: 1 No RBE's, 2 No lamp replament in a long time, 3 no degradation of PQ as when the lamp ages, 4 cool operation 5 no fan noise 6 almost instant start and lastly a superb PQ that in my opinion surpasses the other HLS models, and believe I saw quite a few. I am hoping Big D improves their feeds with the new upcoming receiver.
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