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SpyderTV Pro reviews. - Page 2

post #31 of 322
Sounds good Wayne.... I've been delaying using mine until the weekend because I thought it may take me a good while to do... by the sounds of things, its relatively quick. I'll try playing with it tonight.
post #32 of 322
I understand all to well Wayne. That's exactly what I did after spending so much time calibrating - once you get a great image you just want to use it! Enjoy!

Mike
post #33 of 322
Hi Wayne, looking at your PDF file for Calman, I believe you have Red running out too much on 80% and above. Without filter if you are using Calman, you might need to pull down green and blue to match you red. My understanding after playing with Calman for pass 2 weeks is RGB is relative to each other. For example, if you know that Red is the limited color, you can always set Red at max and only adjust Green and Blue Contrast or Gain to Red level.

Another suggestion is you can try out Hoya 81c or CC20R to get a flatter greyscale and color temperature. I try this on my PE7700 DLP projector and managed to get deltaE below 2 from 20% to 100%.

If you have time, why not using Calman and just do a 0% to 100% greyscale with your current Spyder2TV Pro settings and take a look at the graph.

As mention earlier, Calman really need some skillset at reading and interpreting the data to understand how to tune in your display.
post #34 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by mystery View Post

Mike,

The H78 has Film, Video, and TV image modes. Also, Cinema, Normal and Vivid pre-set picture modes and Gamma 1 - 5. Most professional reviews recommend using Cinema-TV-1. I don't seem to be missing any detail. Brightness has been confirmed through AVIA and no changes were warranted.

Right now, comparing my recent results with Calman isn't a top priority because I'm extremely happy with my projector for the first time since I bought it over two months ago, and I've been on my foot too much playing with these calibration toys when it should have been up in the air and I'm paying for it now.

All I know is, I've been very frustrated with this projector because my H57 displayed better images than I've had with the H78 and this just ought not to have been. Finally, I have some peace and can actually sit down and watch a movie without missing the dialogue because I'm fretting about someone's cheeks being too red. I might even stop tweaking for a while.

Johnla,

That information I posted is taken straight from a document that I found pertaining to the Pro version. I'm unable to attach it because it's too large a file. The section of the document pertaining to the upgrade reads exactly as I wrote it. The file is called 'The SpyderTVPro Reviewer's Guide Final'.

Wayne

Thanks for your review. Did you only change the user settings on your H78 or did you change any of the internal/system setup settings? I also have an Optoma projector. Thanks!
post #35 of 322
rjyap,

Thanks for your suggestions. You're right about the reds as they appeared in that pdf. This seems to be a problem with the H7x series of Optoma projectors. I don't really want to fuss with an external lens filter. I did that with my H57 when I had an ND2 filter to reduce the lumens.

I have read that some other Optoma H78 owners have had success by raising their R Contrast level quite high. It might be something to play with out of curiosity through Calman.

I intend to compare my current settings obtained through SpyderTVPro by running them through a Calman session. But you know, I've been closely studying good and bad DVD transfers for several years now and even if my present numbers don't look good in Calman, I don't think I'd be too tempted to screw around with them. The images I'm seeing now are just too good to mess with if you know what I mean. But it would be interesting to compare. Maybe there won't be much difference.

Gino,

I'm looking forward to your opinion/impressions of the product. It's kind of lonely being the only one right now.
Give us the lowdown as soon as you can.

SJHT,

I didn't go into the service menu at all. Thankfully, the H78 has adjustable RGB Contrast and Brightness controls in the user menu.

Maybe someday I'll spring for an ISF calibration because I still haven't nailed HDTV yet from my Scientific Atlanta 8300HD PVR.

Somebody ought to start a Calibration Network that feeds test patterns all day or whereby you can order up on demand any pattern you like. I'd subscribe to that in a minute.

Wayne
post #36 of 322
I just recieved a SpyderTVPro package yesterday.
I've used a SpyderPro package extensively before, so I'm quite familiar with the basic procedures...

All the wizard measurements that the software does seems to work just fine, but when I come to measuring and adjusting bias/gain something strange happens:

First of all, regardless of which TV I'm measuring (CRT or plasma) it allways tells me to increase blue gain. Even when the grey window pattern is extremely purple/blue in color it still tells me to increase blue.
Second, one is supposed to get bars that shows you graphically which color needs to go down and which to raise, these bars never show up!

I have installed and tried the software on two different computers and using two different Spyder sensors and on one plasma and on one CRT monitor but it acts the same strange way all the time.

Have there been any updates from version 1.0? Because my auto update software in the application states that I have the current version... Somehow I doubt it.
Any advice?
post #37 of 322
arioch,

That doesn't sound right. When I'm doing Cuts/Gains, the Gray boxes don't change color at all that I can recall. They're just put there on screen to remind you which graphic the colorimeter is using to take the measurement.

Also, I think you should be seeing the red, green and blue cylinders along with the tolerance level horizontal area and the 100% line.

I expect that you are using the Pal/Secam Test Pattern disc. I wonder if the NTSC disc is different?

Could it be the fact that you are calibrating a plasma and CRT monitor? I've only calibrated my projector so far. Perhaps selecting plasma or CRT monitor in the software changes how the Cut/Gains adjustment screens look? Do you have access to a projector? You might try calibrating one and see if the procedure changes.

Maybe the SpyderTVPro in Europe is a little different than the North American version?

Wayne
post #38 of 322
It is an NTSC version, the PAL isn't released yet I believe.

And I don't mean the grey windows in the PC, I of course mean the ones on the TV, that are played back from the DVD.

The software doesn't seem to measure the gain/bias correctly at all and the bars are missing.
I noticed that the support part of the Colorvision site is down (and has been since I first tried the software yesterday). I read somewhere that there is supposed to be a version 2.0 of the software and mine is 1.X... What version do You have, mystery?
post #39 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by mystery View Post

Hi Bill!,

I'll see if I can do what you asked but I'm going to need you to allow me to use my new colorimeter with the Calman software. It won't work right now because the license key only matches my old colorimeter's serial number. I've sent you an email about this.

Yup. Two different products. Both excellent for sure. And there can be a place for both in a home theater hobbyist's repertoire.

Wayne

Wayne,
You are all set, though the hardware is the same (you could use the Express with the STV Pro and the only difference is meter-to-meter variation). RJ has already covered the red runout issue (the wizard was wanting you to crash red contrast, btw). However, I'm glad that the STV Pro was able to help you improve on this.

Later,
Bill
post #40 of 322
Thanks Bill!

The new license works fine with the new colorimeter. I sort of gave up on using the wizard though. Those minimums and maximum values for RGB C and RGB B at 0 and 255 respectively aren't my projector's levels. I should have keyed in -50 and 50 all the way down the chart. But either I haven't quite gotten the hang of interpreting the wizard's recommendations or it isn't playing nicely with my H78. The last column I've understood to mean that one should move the control that number of steps either up or down. I don't think it means to actually change the value to that actual number. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong about this. So I would move the control up 10 for example or down 20 (this is just hypothetical) and the picture and graphs would get much worse so I decided to play it by ear.

Can you point out how the wizard wanted me to 'crash' my red contrast? I take it by this you mean to set it at +50?

Wayne
post #41 of 322
Wayne - The wizard is picking up the red runout correctly (it was designed using an H77 [mine] and tested with an H79 [Derek's]). The "change" column tells you that on a 0-255 scale with a current value at 137, it wants you to drop red contrast by 25 points to eliminate the runout (significant drop = crash in my vernacular). There are even more dramatic of adjustments for the other two primaries to bring them into balance. Yes, you do need to put in the appropriate start, end and current values to have this be meaningful, though. However, the wizard was definitely trying to tell you that you had a bit more work to do!

Bill
post #42 of 322
Noone who has a clue to my problem above?
post #43 of 322
Wayne,
I'm curious what your settings are (after your adjustment) for:
PICTURE Mode, Contrast, Brightness, Gamma, White Peaking, Color Temp, IMAGE Mode, R contrast, G contrast, B contrast, R brightness, G Brightness, B brightness,

I know that all proj are different, but wondered what yours is coming out to after calibration. Thanks. SJ
post #44 of 322
arioch,

When I have the Test Pattern disc on, the patterns don't have any tint to them at all. Just the different shades of gray along with the other patterns.

I have the Pal/Secam disc as well as NTSC. I thought you would as well.

I have to wonder if there's something wrong here. Either you have the wrong software or you need to report a bug. You should be seeing the RGB tubular bars.

Wayne
post #45 of 322
Bill,

Thanks for the clarification.

SJHT,

Since I use both my HTPC for watching movies and my Oppo, I'll give you my final settings for the two of them:

HTPC

PICTURE Mode Cinema (my choice-SpyderTVPro doesn't measure for this), Contrast 9, Brightness -4, Gamma 1 (my choice), White Peaking 0 (my choice), Color Temp 2, IMAGE Mode TV (my choice), R contrast 13, G contrast -3, B contrast 0, R brightness -12, G Brightness 1, B brightness 0.

Oppo

PICTURE Mode Cinema (my choice), Contrast 6, Brightness -1, Gamma 1 (my choice), White Peaking 0 (my choice), Color Temp 3, IMAGE Mode TV (my choice), R contrast 20, G contrast -3, B contrast -3, R brightness -11, G Brightness 1, B brightness 0.

106" Da-Lite High Power screen

Wayne
post #46 of 322
mystery>> Well, of course they are grey test windows (I am talking about what I see on the TV or from the projector, not in the PC).
But try raising blue gain to ridiculous levels (max) and lower red and green and you certainly will see a blue tint to any grey window. This is not an error...
The errors that I'm getting are:

1.
The software ALLWAYS tells me to raise blue gain and bias, whatever the measurement/visual reference. I could have a color value of x=0.280, y=0.299, and the software will still tell me to raise blue.

2.
The bars are non-existing on screen (in the PC).

And this occurs in both computers I've tried the software with, it occurs on two different displays that I've tried to calibrate and it also occurs with both the Spyders that I own.

So, yes, it must be a software error. But how come I get it and noone else? I have two completely different Windows XP installations that I've tried the software in (XP Pro and XP home). Different graphics cards, different processors... Different everything.
Surely there must be a software upgrade available from the 1.1.0.224 version I run here.

Please, can someone tell me what version you're running? I'm talking about "SpyderTV.exe". Of course it could be some dll or something that differs, but it's simply annoying when the auto updating service in the application tells me that the software is up to date when it just can't be - since it's not working as it should on two completely different PCs. Or is the auto update service non-reliable? If so - where can I get a newer version than the one I have?
post #47 of 322
thanks Mystery's report of STVPro ver.

what filter Pro comes with? what's that weighted disc for?
what the differences between STVPro and S2Pro discs?

now I just use STV to calibrate Toshiba 62HM84, plan to buy a projector in the future. $369 seems a lot to upgrade to Pro ver just b/c it can calibrate pj. what's the MSRPs of std STV vs STVPro?
anyone who owned these 2 compared the results of both? do you get same parameters suggestion?

does STVPro tell you how to enter 'service mode' of different TV brands? I just know the method to enter Tosh, what if I buy another brand TV in the future?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mystery View Post

SpyderTVPro Review

Here's what you get in the box:
1 SpyderTV Colorimeter including filter and USB cable with a weighted disc
1 SpyderTVPro software CD
1 Spyder2Pro software CD

Mike, I just found out that people with SpyderTV can upgrade to the Pro version for $369.00. For that you get a SpyderTVPro software CD, Spyder2Pro software CD, SpyderTVPro DVD (installation guide and test patterns), SpyderTVPro carrying case, and a SpyderTVPro vs. Spyder2Pro comparison sheet.

post #48 of 322
arioch,

You seem to want to try to get me to understand a point which I've understood from the beginning. You're seeing a tint to your onscreen test patterns when you increase the blue and the program always tells you to increase the blue no matter how much excessive blue is in the mix. I get that. So far I seem to be the only one who's tried to help you and I have no answers for you other than what I've offered up prior. I'm running the exact same software version as you and it always tells me that my version is up to date when I try to update it.

Tonight I calibrated my Toshiba CRT direct view set which doesn't have user controls for Gains/Cuts. Since I don't have access to the service menu on this set, I only adjusted for the controls available to me in the user menu. As a result, no red, green, or blue cylindrical bars were available.

If you do have the Cuts/Gains controls available to you then you absolutely should be seeing the cylindrical bars. I have never been concerned about how tinted the test pattern becomes when I'm adjusting Cuts/Gains because I've always started out with calibration numbers that have been very close to perfect due to my use of Calman software prior to finishing up with SpyderTVPro. So the suggestions given to me by the wizard have been relatively small with regards to any of the three colors. Indeed, the wizard has actually told me that no adjustments are needed and that the colors are within tolerance but I still see room for improvement given my propensity to perfectionism. Therefore I do still tweak a bit further probably unnecessarily. But the bars do appear and they are logical. If the red contrast bar is at 115% and looks like the Empire State building, the wizard directs me to lower the red contrast.

So you see I've never seen gray test patterns tinted to any of the three colors which is why I've been surprised that you have. Either your beginning numbers are so out of whack that you can't help but see a tint, or as I've suspected, you ought to be demanding an exchange of your entire purchase. Your colorimeter may be at fault and not just the software.

You obviously cannot properly calibrate anything with this nonsense going on. I hope you are able to get this straightened out soon.

Wayne
post #49 of 322

Ok, then I know that I don't have an out-of date software anyway.
The tint in my case, of course, appears when I have raised blue a gazillion times after the program has adviced me to... There is no apparent tint at the start.

Well... I'll just have to put my trust to the Colorvision support then, that they can help.

Thanks, mystery.
post #50 of 322
Problem solved! Evidently all settings in Windows needs to be English (I had Swedish settings of course) and then it all seems to work!
This is of course a US-version of the application so perhaps it's natural...
Well, thanks for the support anyway.
post #51 of 322
@mystery

Do you get consistently better results with the STV Pro vs Calman?
post #52 of 322
anbjornk,

I haven't played much with Calman since I got SpyderTVPro for two reasons. One is because I need to redo my offset calculations because I've switched colorimeters and I want to ensure that any tolerance variances are accounted for. Since that involves taking 18 measurements I won't be able to do that until my broken foots heals which will be at least 3 1/2 more weeks. Secondly, I had achieved what I considered to be a successful calibration for the most part using Calman and was fairly happy with my results but wanting to tweak a little more because I still felt that some improvement could be attained. When I received the SpyderTVPro and took it through it's paces, I discovered that the extra level of enhancement that I had wanted to reach with further Calman iterations, had now been accomplished given the obvious step up in overall image satisfaction.

So my opinion is that it is probably possible to get the same results with Calman as SpyderTVPro but it will take a much longer time with Calman because it's far more intensive and measures more points along the grayscale. For instance, I have a Da-Lite High Power screen which I've found tends to give Calman fits. Therefore, an offset calculation is necessary and that takes time to initially work through. Then after that you can go ahead and run through the iterations and read the graphs and try different values and hopefully eventually end up with a picture that is close to D6504.

After having done all that for about a month and being for the most part happy with my images, I discovered that SpyderTVPro took the Calman results and springboarded from there to a higher level of satisfaction. I suspect that it was easier for the SpyderTVPro software to calibrate my H78 given that I had first done a lot of work with Calman.

Nevertheless, SpyderTVPro is very fast and easy and doesn't have any difficulty taking readings directly off of my High Power screen. It's nice to not have to set up the offscreen parameters.

So to answer your question, I haven't played enough with Calman since I received the SpyderTVPro to offer a fair response. For me, I'm happier with my images now than I've ever been since getting into front projection. The draw to go back to Calman calibrations isn't necessarily to improve upon my images anymore but to use an excellent program that gives out a whole lot more information about the state of my projector. The graphs in the SpyderTVPro software aren't as useful in my opinion as Calman's and I believe that there's room for both for the hobbyist if money isn't an object.

So the bottom line would seem to be, if you have some cash, but not much time on your hands and you want a great picture but aren't into detailed graphs, then go for the SpyderTVPro. If on the other hand, you are a tweaker by nature and are patient and love to study statistics and can't afford much at this time, go for the Calman and one of the Spyder colorimeters such as Spyder2Express.

Wayne
post #53 of 322
Thank you very much, mystery


Quote:


Nevertheless, SpyderTVPro is very fast and easy and doesn't have any difficulty taking readings directly off of my High Power screen. It's nice to not have to set up the offscreen parameters.

Can the SpyderTV Pro take accurate readings directly from the screen?
post #54 of 322
Yes. Position the pod about 12" (USA) and catching the optimal incident angle of reflection.
post #55 of 322
anbjornk,

I have had great success by situating the colorimeter as Coyote mentioned about a foot or so away from the screen and facing up at the center area from about a height equal to the bottom third portion of the screen. This is so the shadow of the colorimeter isn't where the measurement area is. I believe that my High Power screen is causing the Spyder colorimeter and software to work a little harder than it might if I were using my Optoma GWII screen. Nevertheless, it still works it's way through the readings but it sometimes asks me to confirm the readings by re-doing them. Not a problem at all. I think I may pull down my GWII screen and calibrate the H78 to that and see what the results are as far as user menu control changes and real life impressions.

Coyote,

What would you suggest is the best way short of Colorfacts/Accupel etc... to properly calibrate HDTV from a PVR such as my Scientific Atlanta 8300HD? I just cannot get a satisfactory picture from this set top box to my H78DC3 projector. Perhaps someone will come out with an HD AVIA that can be used in the Toshiba HD-DVD player for example. Would a calibration of this sort come close to properly setting up the projector for HDTV broadcasts?

Wayne
post #56 of 322
"What would you suggest is the best way short of Colorfacts/Accupel etc... to properly calibrate HDTV from a PVR such as my Scientific Atlanta 8300HD? I just cannot get a satisfactory picture from this set top box to my H78DC3 projector. Perhaps someone will come out with an HD AVIA that can be used in the Toshiba HD-DVD player for example. Would a calibration of this sort come close to properly setting up the projector for HDTV broadcasts? "

Wayne

Greetings Wayne,
An HD version (or supplement to) DVE is anticipated to be out in late October; presently it is in final mastering. This will get you very close.
Set top boxes and other assorted HD devices still exhibit a wide range of output varyability due to parts tolerances among other factors, so utilizing an HD DVD player as a source is taking into account the influence that product has and introduces that "fingerprint" or signature, if your will, to the calibration results.

A professional calibrator has to make a decision in the field, if the display exhibits "global" settings, whether to calibrate with a known reference...the Accupel as you suggest...so that the display is properly calibrated with all HD sources utlizing those adjustments, or to go through and HD DVD player, and hope that all other sources closely match to those adjusted parameters.

Quantum Data makes a generator that has an ATSC RF output for use through Sat boxes, however, that standard is different, as you all know, than that utilized by cable companies for HD TV. Therefore, presently there is no methodology to introduce and HD signal for testing purposes into a PVR (that I am aware of...perhaps someone on the Forum has a work-around). My decision would be to use a known reference (in my case the Quantum 802b) with the sources hoping to match to those adjustments.
post #57 of 322
How advanced is the SVT Pro ? When looking at Colorvision website it says the SVT Pro does not support Primaries/Secondaries. What does this mean?
post #58 of 322
anbjornk,

The summary data sheet that the program spits out after a calibration doesn't include any primaries and/or secondaries information. Perhaps this is what the website is indicating. It does measure contrast, brightness, color, tint, color temperature and grayscale for example but if you wish to delve into other measurements you'll need to turn to another method.

Coyotes,

Thanks for the information. I guess I'll just keep on winging it for now when it comes to HDTV. Perhaps the new HD-DVE might be worth a shot but I don't own an HD-DVE or BD player. I've tried using AVIA upscaled to 1280 x 720 through my Oppo (first generation) via DVI/HDMI to my H78 but then the images look good for DVD but aren't right for HDTV. Oh well.

Wayne
post #59 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyotes View Post

"What would you suggest is the best way short of Colorfacts/Accupel etc... to properly calibrate HDTV from a PVR such as my Scientific Atlanta 8300HD? I just cannot get a satisfactory picture from this set top box to my H78DC3 projector. Perhaps someone will come out with an HD AVIA that can be used in the Toshiba HD-DVD player for example. Would a calibration of this sort come close to properly setting up the projector for HDTV broadcasts? "
....
or to go through and HD DVD player, and hope that all other sources closely match to those adjusted parameters.

This is what I did. I used a normal Avia disk (GetGray didn't work with the A1 for some reason ) in the HD-DVD player. I used component out for 480i, 720p, and 1080i and it matched my HR10-250 HD-Tivo output quite well.

I primarily watch DVD/HD-DVD through the HDMI output, which is D65 calibrated and the colors look equally accurate on the HD-Tivo output over component now.

Mike
post #60 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uatatoka View Post

This is what I did. I used a normal Avia disk (GetGray didn't work with the A1 for some reason ) in the HD-DVD player. I used component out for 480i, 720p, and 1080i and it matched my HR10-250 HD-Tivo output quite well.

I primarily watch DVD/HD-DVD through the HDMI output, which is D65 calibrated and the colors look equally accurate on the HD-Tivo output over component now.

Mike

Guys,
Please be certain when you are upscaling through your NTSC DVD players to set the output for RGB and not Y/Pr/Pb. This way, the display will process the incoming color matrix properly (hopefully!). Otherwise, you are sending NTSC signals, which will be decoded in the HD Colorspace ('709) and the resulting colorimetry will be improperly displayed.
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