Revel Owners Thread - Page 82

Yeah, this was my impression too. It could be that they "overcooked the meal a bit", I mean, they had to make it better than the Performa2 series F52, because thats what the owners would like to see, and Revel owners are more critical so they just wont buy the new one, if it's not better. But another scenario could be, that the F308 was too good, and it would have been tough to sell the Studio's. (but thats unlikely...)

Anyway, thanks for the info about the F32, it was a lifesaver. Currently I have a full Concerta system, and I wanted to pull the trigger on a pair of F32 on ebay, because it had a good price. Now I wont make an offer on it. I will wait for the Performa3 reviews, and opinions from you guys.

The problem is, for the F52 used price you can get a used Ultima 1st Gen Studio here in Europe. So, i don't know how good the F52 is, but I bet, it isn't better than the First Studio.
Have anybody made a comparison between these two!?

Anyway I ordered my S30, to replace my M12, i will get back to you with the results, when they arrive.

Esox50,

My perception is different. For what I've seen with other brands such as the Dynaudios, there's a price point where you suddely decide to jump, and to jump higher.
I know proud owners of the Focus 220II that decided to upgrade, but they do not stop at the 360, they scale up to the Contour 5.4.

In a similar way, it is a possibility that potential costumers would prefer to go to the top of the line Revels instead of going to the 308s, that regardless of the performance, are still a middle series offering. This is the nature of human ego...

Of course this is mere speculation

I know that they are not made in the US anymore... I am talking about the philosophy. It's a very different thing, when you are trying to sell a premium product, and it doesn't matter where it was made, Revel's are premium product from the Usa.

And pricepoints were not written in the stones. It was an estimated MSRP, they can change it, if they want to.

But my opinion is the same, they will increase it to 5-5.5 grand, and they are going to get some rave reviews, that they sound like nothing in there pricepoint. Or at least I would love to see this.

I just gotta say it's great to see this thread finally getting some activity!

The main reason for the assumption is because Revel posted this on their facebook page (just after announcing that the F308 was scrapped):


While that could mean prices will go down or even stay the same, it just seems more likely that they intend to raise prices (hopefully not a lot).

Yep, the F208 is a beast. I feared that the F308 would have been ultra-ugly when I saw how big the F208 looked at CES. Perhaps that played into the decision to scrap it as well...

To be honest, I think the decision to drop the F308 is probably a good one. Since the F206 is really the replacement for the F32 (at lower price) and hence the F208 would really replace the F52 (also at a lower price). So I'm not sure why they'd need another model in the line-up, especially since the F208 should have more than enough bass.

x2


I'm sure things well pick up once the Performa3 line is on the market.

We will easily hit a huge number of posts per day... that's for sure. I'm really excited for the release.

Bump for post #2426.

Because no one will give you an answer, I will try to help, although I've never heard the M22.
My first Revel speaker was the M12, and after half a year, based on the wonderful experience I had with the M12, I bought the F12. After I connected it into my system, I know right away that I made a good decision. It has much more bass extension, and also, it has a cleaner sound than the M12, and in my opinion, the high frequencies are also somehow better. It was definitely an upgrade. Don't get me wrong, the M12's are wonderful bookshelf speakers (and a real bargain when you compare their performance to other brands), but the F12's are just better.

After I got used to the bass of the F12, I felt they doesn't sound as good as they could, because they were trying to reproduce deep sounds, which made things sound worse. So I bought a Concerta B120 subwoofer, and setup the system with a crossover setting, that everything below 80 Hz goes to the Sub. The F12 got much better after I created this setup.

Sadly I never heard the M22, so I can't tell you anything about that, but I would be surprised to hear a huge improvement from the F12 to the M22. I think they should be equal, or the M22 a tad better in the mid-higher range, and worse in the deep section.
But these are just my 2 cents.

I did hear the M22s once a few years ago, and thought then that they were simply the best pair of passive standmount speakers that I've ever heard. Since the weekend before last though, I've been listening to a pair of Revel Performa M22s that I've borrowed. I had a pair of NHT Classic Threes that the owner of the M22s wanted to try out, so we swapped on a temporary basis. I can only wish it was permanent though. I treat the M22s as if they were my own, and I implicitly trust the M22s owner with my NHT Threes.

The M22s are in an absolutely gorgeous two tone maple & black finish that the owner got new a few years ago when that particular finish was being discontinued by Revel for just a little over $1000 shipped from an authorized dealer. That almost seems too good to be true, but I saw the invoice. They are on their matching Revel pedestal stands which they bolt to very securely.

Their sensitivity is very low when compared to the F12s, but I think they do have two things over the F12s in spades - upper end detail (even with the tweeter turned down as low as it will go) and imaging. They totally 'disappear' much more so than the F12s. After spending some time with them, it's only reinforced just that much more my belief that they are indeed the best passive stand-mount speaker I've ever heard.

But overall though, I think I do like my F12s better. Much higher sensitivity, better dynamics, better midrange, and better bass at the expense of a little more upper detail and imaging. I wish I could also compare the C32 to the C12 too.

Regrettably for me, the M22s will go back to their home tomorrow, but it's only made me appreciate my F12s even more than I did before. More than ever, I think the F12 might possibly be the best value in a speaker on the market today.

I recently joined the Revel ownership group. Started with a pair of used M12's ($275) and quickly followed with a pair of F12's ($750). They replaced my Swan Diva's (goodby old friends) but in another room I use some Beta 50's, 20's and a C360.

As far as comparing the M12's to the F12's it looks like personnal preference and room acoustics just play a large part in it. I think the M12 is better at what it can do (mid-range/highs) over the F12 but in a different room I would probably say something different. The F12's are just a bit too bright to me (I think the room is a bit bright). But I mean "just a bit". I like a soft and warm speaker and the tonal quality of the Beta series is just about perfect to me. But obviously the Beta's aren't quite as good. Anyway, I still need the C12 to round out the system and would probably sell the F12's if I could get another pair of M12's and the C12 in return. But I listen to a lot of 2 channel music in Pure Analog and I just like the idea of having towers so I'll keep looking for the C12 and be done with it. Unless another pair of M12's come up locally. Then....

But after hearing the comments on the M22's maybe two pair of those and the matching center might be the way to go ($$$). I guy near me is selling a pair of M22's for $900. Maybe I need to give them a listen.

BTW, if buying used, the Beta series has to be the best thing going. I bought the pair of 50's for $225, the 20's for $110 and the C360 for $50! All off CL and all were perfectly fine cosmetically. It took about 8 months to complete the 5 piece set and they certainly aren't Concerta's but for $385 (should have been closer to $600-$650) they are phenominal!

For some apples to apples objective data comparing the M12s to the F12s.

Soundstage F12 measurements


Soundstage M12 measurements

I've posted recently in this thread about how unappreciated I feel the M12s are here at AVS.

Two of their competitors that get a lot more attention here than they do are the Ascend Sierra 1 and the NHT Classic Three (which I also own a pair of in the interest of full disclosure). Here is more apples to apples objective data comparing the M12s to them both.


Soundstage Sierra measurements


Soundstage Classic Three measurements

While Soundstage hasn't reviewed and measured the Performa M22s yet that I know of, they did the previous generation M20, which several posters have recently said on this thread that they feel were actually a better speaker than the current M22s.

Soundstage M20 measurements

I find it very interesting that the Sierra's distortion evidently was not low enough to warrant an additional set of measurements 5 db higher like the NHTs and all of the Revels were.

I've kind of got my eye on the forthcoming Peforma3 F206. It theoretically should image a little better than the F208 since it has a narrower front baffle, but will hopefully still extend low enough that a sub or subs will not be required for most 2 channel music.

Hi guys,

I've stumbled on these news on the Revel page, might be interesting:

http://revelspeakers.com/News/Story/94

Just like I thought, because of droping the F308, they have increased the price from the initial 4500$ to 5000$ for the F208. Although it isn't a huge increase, it is still one, as I suspected, they want to keep a higher pricetag to keep luxury image. (yeah, I know that this kind of money is still nothing in the audio world... :P)

All the speakers are expected to arrive in December 2012 , except the subs, which will arrive early 2013.

The interesting things are clearly the Aluminium bracings, the new special lens waveguide, the totally separated midrange drivers in all the 3 ways(cleaner and better midrange), and the curvy lines, for the better, cleaner sound reproduction.

The huge price increase ( the C208 costs double ) from the smaller center is an interesting strategy, although I think, the bigger one is going to be far more better, and worth the added 1000$.

Only the more expensive ones get the tweeter/boundary controls. The question is, how important are these, because I have never used the one on my S30, and most of the Ultima, Performa reviewers left them at the default settings... :S

I live in Europe, so these prices are going to be the same, just in Euros, or at least this is what we are used to here

I now have s Concerta system with performa surrounds, so for me, the upgrade path is 2 way. Either I buy a new Performa3 F208, with a C208 following later, or I could buy a used F52 (F32 according to a lots of people are not a huge upgrade from the F12). But the problem is, because of the higher original pricetag of the F52, they are still going for 4000-6000-7000 $ used here in Europe.

And this is, where it starts to get really interesting for me, because if the initial reviews find the Performa3 far better than the F52, the used price for those should drop from the ones I posted above. But if they stay at the same price no one in their right mind is going to buy those used. On the other hand, if the prices of the older ones are decreasing they could be still a nice upgrade.

Not to mention the original Ultima Studios, which also are available at the same price level, as these. I'm getting really excited about these options.

I don't see that the midrange sub enclosure is anything new, I think that is fairly industry standard. My '77 vintage L212s have a MR sub enclosure.
And ribbed cones are nothing new either, although maybe Revel has never used them in the past. JBL has used ribbed cones since the '70s.

The price increases are reasonable, though any increase is a touch disappointing:

Comparing the F206 to the F308, I wonder if the 8" woofers are really worth $1500 more than the 6.5", all other things except cabinet size/volume being equal of course?

You mean comparing the F206 to the F208. (the F308 was dropped because according to Harman it wasn't any better than the 208. )

It you look at the original pictures released in January ( where the F308 was not even drawn) you can see, that the F206 and the F208 are two very different animals. The volume of the F208 is around 1.4 times bigger (thats only my assumption by just looking at the picture) the front baffle is larger, so with the 8" woofers, it is going to be a loudspeaker with a clear advantage in the low frequency range, it is going to sweep the floor with the F206 in my opinion.

Add to the equation the boundary and tweeter level controls, which only the F208 and the C208 gets, and you clearly see where your 1500$ went. I think anyone having this kind of money shouldn't even consider the F206, unless the space or the room size is limited.

The same holds for the subs (where they should have some kind of EQ, nowdays the B112 needs at least an automatic one...) if you are going to give 2000$ for the smaller 400 Watt 10" sub, you should clearly choose the 12" with the 1000W power, Unless both are equipped with the sane technology (EQ, quality etc.).

In my opinion the B110 with a single 10" woofer wouldn't add much to the bass, what you are going to get from a F208 with the dual 8" woofers.

Uhh, we Revel fans are going to have a very exciting year...

As Gugu_S said: cabinet size/volume won't be the same. The F208 is a much larger speaker, so the combination of increased cabinet and driver size should mean serious bass. Whether the F206 or F208 is right for you may just come down to what size room you plan to use them in.

I'm not sure why Revel eliminated the tweeter/room compensation controls from all but the most expensive models in the new line-up. Maybe they felt persons weren't using them on the M22 and F32, so they cut some cost from the new models by excluding them.

If you compare the Gem2 to the JBL PT800, you see the same thing. The JBL does not have any controls either. And the Gem2 was basically just an upgrade to an already fine speaker. I have the PT800s both as free standing mains and wall mounted surrounds, and not having contour/boundary controls has never been a problem.

Yes, I meant the 208. That was a typo. A thousand pardons.

As I stated in my post, obviously the cabinet size/volume is bigger on the F208 to accommodate the extra 1.5" woofer diameter. However, I was unaware of the boundary compensation and tweeter level controls. I am familiar with them as the pair of M22s I recently borrowed to audition for almost a month also had them. While I can see how the tweeter level control might could be useful for some listeners, IMO the boundary comp control is virtually useless on any tower unless maybe somebody, for whatever reason, has to place them literally right up against a wall or in a corner, or something else like that such as maybe against a big piece of furniture. While the F208 should very obviously have deeper bass extension and more bass output than the F206, the 206 should equally as obviously have better dispersion for improved imaging/soundstaging due to it's narrower front baffle.

This is where we will just have to disagree, because with that $1500 difference, I can add a sealed, direct servo Rhythmic sub (or two) to the F206s that combined will MOP the floor with the F208s in terms of bass power and extension while still having the better imaging of the 206s, not to even mention the less taxing demand on the amp. For these reasons, I have the exact opposite view you do - I don't think anyone having this kind of money should even consider the F208s, but that's just me.

As for subs, Revel does make great ones. I have dual sealed B12s myself that I picked up on a good deal for less than half of full retail (which their 10" drivers do add a lot to the F12's 8" woofers IMO), but I personally would never pay anything even close to full MSRP on a Revel sub because I do feel there are better bang for the buck options out there such as the Rhythmics I just mentioned.

At least we do agree that it's going to be a good year for Revel fans though.

Isn't the PT800 basically already pre-tuned for on-wall (or maybe at least in a bookcase) placement unless it's mounted on top of the PS1400 sub with the sub's corresponding crossover engaged? I noticed the manual stated that the PT800 should be high passed @ 80 Hz when on the wall, but it's high passed @ 130 Hz when 'stand' mounted on the PS1400 with the internal crossover. I'm assuming the bass boost for on-wall mounting comes from the boundary reinforcement as compared to being 'stand' mounted?

I'm sure most persons won't need contour/boundary controls. Though it is useful to have the flexibility provided by them in being able to place the speaker right up against a rear wall if required.

On the plus side for Revel is that there are persons who hated the concept of those controls, as they believe that anything extra in the signal path will just degrade the sound. I read a review of the M22's (if I'm not mistaken) where the reviewer questioned how much better the speakers might sound without the controls.

I can not remember which poster it was last year. But I suggested he use the PT800s for surrounds instead of the M22s, I think he already had and did not like for surrounds. So he got the PT800s and was much happier with them.

The one exception to having extra components in the circuit, that does improve the sound is a bias network. Where you double the quantity and size of the caps replacing each original cap with two in series. Then the midpoint of each pair of caps is connected to a 9 volt battery through a 2 meg u resistor. That keeps the voltage above zero as the current reverses though the cap, eliminating distortion caused by phase shift. I built a bias network for a pair of custom speakers, made the highs much more open and smoother.
I seem to remember just recently reading, that Greg Timbers @ JBL has since removed the batteries in favor of adding the bias current via the circuit itself, in the latest JBL models to have biased networks.

Thats interesting... Sorry for my mistake, but because i already own a B120, i never thought of the situation like you did. I think, that the B120 wouldn't add much to the Bass of the 206. It doesnt add much to the F12's either, but its sure making it sound cleaner, and more full.

Now I kinda have to agree with you, because the level compansations are a nice touch, but I wouldn't pay for them extra. About the imaging, and soundstage I'm not sure yet, but it would definitely make my life easier, if the 206 were an enough upgrade from the F12's, and later I could buy an additional Sub, to get more bass, if I ever need it.

Odd question regarding Revel Performa M20. Received a pair today.

One intriguing aspect of the M20 for me is that the weight of a single speaker is specified at 45 lbs. An unusually high weight for a speaker this size. Bought them to hear what a 45 lbs, moderately sized bookshelf speaker would sound like.

When I first received the FedEx tracking update a few days ago, the shipping weight for both speakers was listed at 74.7 lbs. I thought this odd since Revel lists the packaged shipping weight at 48 lbs./speaker. The total shipping weight for both should have been ~ 96 lbs. Individually, one package listed at 37.8 lbs, the other at 36.9 lbs. Thought maybe a misread from the scales at the shipping center.

When picking up the speakers today at FedEx , I placed one box on the sale. It read 37.8 lbs. Got home and unpacked the speakers, crudely weighed on a bathroom scale and the speaker measured ~ 36 lbs.

I find it odd that a manufacturer's spec. could be off by ~10 lbs. The M20 look great and sound like they probably should. Maybe I'll contact Revel tomorrow.

So for Revel Performa M20 owners, what does one single speaker actually weigh?

Can't tell you the weight, just that I have them and prefer them to their replacement, the M22.

Thanks for the reply. I think your preference for the M20 is shared by many, at least from the research I've gathered.

Only been listening to the M20 for a little over one hour, driving them with a Primare A30.1 integrated. A different sound than other speakers I've owned or still own. Need a couple of weeks to have a definitive assessment.

But, assuming nothing else going on, how can the actual weight differ by 10 lbs. from spec?