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Revel Owners Thread - Page 105

post #3121 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Does anyone have any thoughts on a normal 15 amp house receptacle having enough juice to power my Sunfire 200x7 amp? I'm in the wrong thread but you guys are knowledgeable. Also on this same circuit is a 1500 watt class D sub. Thanks.

You will only find out at what volume level trips the breaker! I doubt you will hit it before your ears say no more.
post #3122 of 6792
The fact is 4DHD, you have no idea what the working conditions are at the factory where Revel speakers are made.
Another fact is that depending on what product is being made, labor costs can be a very small part of the decision to offshore manufacturing.
Your story about Nike is\was true 25 years ago. I'm sure the world is in a static state and nothing has changed in that time, please.
Another fact is that Apple is onshoring some of their manufacturing due to a number of reasons but mainly because it is in their best business interest to do so.

It is a complex issue and I'm sure there are salient points about this you and I would completely agree on but this isn't\shouldn't be the venue for it.
I do object to you trying to lay a guilt-trip on someone for purchasing a product that he loves and has worked hard for.

Would I prefer that my Revels had been made in the USA, you bet I do.
Edited by Milt99 - 2/2/13 at 2:27pm
post #3123 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by robbbby View Post

I'm absolutely loving it, right now I just have a bunch of music playing, mix of all genres and everything from 16/44 to 24/192 playing at random for break in. I find myself constantly stopping to sit down and listen when I walk by the room and everytime I do i'm grinning from ear to ear.
Still have not even bothered to adjust speaker distances, toe in, etc. or even play with the bass and tweeter adjustment on the back.
They seem to be blending well with the ncores which are very neutral sounding. The meitner may also have something to do with how well the speaker and amp are playing together.
There was only one instance where I had a bad sound moment, was a killers song that came on from the hot fuss album, it sounded awful, but I don't think it was the original release, believe it was from a highly compressed bonus version. Was probably the ncores showing the true colours of that particular recording.
So far though everything is good. The meitner is also new so it may also require a bit of burn in.

Cool.
Funny, but I did the exact same thing.
I didn't tweak anything for a good week except put my new Oppo on continuous repeat when I was gone and at night and just listened while going about other things.
I can say one thing for sure, these speakers really fill up my main floor and sound great so far off axis that I wouldn't know what to call it!

Later I moved my loaner speakers aside and put the Revels in their place. I left it that way for a few days and then sat down one evening and started repositioning them using a tape measure etc.
I've done a couple of extended critical listening sessions and tweaked things a bit more but these can get tiring.

I'm going to quit wasting time on this thread and do some more listening and experiment with the boundary\contour swtich and see if I can hear anything.
I'd also like to find a semi-final position for them and put the spikes in.
post #3124 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by gferrell View Post

You will only find out at what volume level trips the breaker! I doubt you will hit it before your ears say no more.


So far so good, and no issues with blown breakers. But I'm thinking about adding some D sonic mono blocks and I'm wondering if the class D draws more or less amperage. I really need some dedicated receptacles and if I go that far I might as well go 20 amp.
post #3125 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

The fact is 4DHD, you have no idea what the working conditions are at the factory where Revel speakers are made.
Another fact is that depending on what product is being made, labor costs can be a very small part of the decision to offshore manufacturing.
Your story about Nike is\was true 25 years ago. I'm sure the world is in a static state and nothing has changed in that time, please.
Another fact is that Apple is onshoring some of their manufacturing due to a number of reasons but mainly because it is in their best business interest to do so.

It is a complex issue and I'm sure there are salient points about this you and I would completely agree on but this isn't\shouldn't be the venue for it.
I do object to you trying to lay a guilt-trip on someone for purchasing a product that he loves and has worked hard for.

Would I prefer that my Revels had been made in the USA, you bet I do.

I don't know what Revel is paying their workers there Or the working conditions. But as of 2000, the government set wage in Jakarta was $33/m, or $1.10/day. That's only an increase of 10 cents since the mid '80s.

You object....I object to thought processes that some will do anything just to grab the last $0.50 on the table.
Harman went down hill when the bean counters got to control the corporation.
I moved out of the US over 3 years ago, so I am not obliged to buy American anything. But I do object if a company decides to pay sub-standard wages for even a 3rd world country.

As for Matt & Paraneer, I never mentioned anything about China as being 3rd world or about junk being made or the quality of Revel.
As for what things cost in Japan, yes quite high, although my son is making a good living there, selling/exporting Japanese auto parts to anywhere in the world. The parts made/used in Japan are of better quality than what are used in Japanese cars in NA. And in particular, the racing crowd in NA running Japanese cars know this.
post #3126 of 6792
I assume where some of this is coming from is the "conventional wisdom" that US audiophile companies no longer making products in the USA are not of the same quality. The engineers and owners of the boutique stores can't be as hands on in the process. I've hear that quite a bit over the years. The conventional wisdom also says that more and more companies are doing it with their lower end line, perfecting it, then moving up their lines once they have achieved a quality standard.

Again, the "conventional wisdom" is just that. The sense of what people are saying is that as long as the quality is there it doesn't matter (agreed) and as long as there are no labor violations either then it's OK. I also think we'd also like some price adjustments and perhaps that's what happened with the Performa 3 line and why there's a slightly lower price point with this series vs. Performa 2 and why Revel is touting them to be better with the additional engineering and research.
post #3127 of 6792
Comfy,

Amplifier efficienciy averages break down as follows:

Class A
25% efficient
Class A/B
50% efficient
Class D
87% efficient

Class D converts more of the wall current into acoustic power than the standard A and A/B units.

Also, there is a major difference between music signals and sine wave test signals. You can limit out most amplifier power supplies with an 80dB (at the speaker) sine wave signal whereas a music signal can often go to 115dB with no power supply failure. I agree with the earlier poster who suggested you check the high level output of your system with the 15A breaker before installing dedicated 20 or 30A lines. Even a 15A breaker is capable of handling a 100A signal for a few milliseconds. Most musical peaks can generally be measured in milliseconds. That being said, the stereo versions of the 1500W monos do have dual power cords. In the larger multichannel amplifers, these are each 20A power cords. Some professional installers use all 7 channels to drive 18" passive subwoofers and this kind of application does require dedicated 20A circuits.

Dennis
post #3128 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsonic View Post

Comfy,

Amplifier efficienciy averages break down as follows:

Class A
25% efficient
Class A/B
50% efficient
Class D
87% efficient

Class D converts more of the wall current into acoustic power than the standard A and A/B units.

Also, there is a major difference between music signals and sine wave test signals. You can limit out most amplifier power supplies with an 80dB (at the speaker) sine wave signal whereas a music signal can often go to 115dB with no power supply failure. I agree with the earlier poster who suggested you check the high level output of your system with the 15A breaker before installing dedicated 20 or 30A lines. Even a 15A breaker is capable of handling a 100A signal for a few milliseconds. Most musical peaks can generally be measured in milliseconds. That being said, the stereo versions of the 1500W monos do have dual power cords. In the larger multichannel amplifers, these are each 20A power cords. Some professional installers use all 7 channels to drive 18" passive subwoofers and this kind of application does require dedicated 20A circuits.

Dennis



Hi Dennis, it sounds like I definately need a few dedicated 20a lines if I want to do this right. I'm glad you cleared this up, and the fact that your amps are 87% efficient, which is something I didn't know. I'm constantly learnining, and that's a good thing. I'm really looking forward to trying one or more out. Thanks!
Edited by comfynumb - 2/2/13 at 5:05pm
post #3129 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

It certainly does matter, if the reason for moving the plant is to lower the labor cost to such a point that the workers are paid a sub-standard wage, even for their 3rd world country. And then the manufacturer still charges a King's ransom for the finished product.
So everyone is getting screwed!!

Really have to laugh when I see this attitude about reducing mfg costs and pricing. Revel or any other company for that matter can charge what they wish for their product. The market will determine whether that is a reasonable price....and the market could not care less about your opinion on the price. It's their business model to either succeed or fail with, not yours and not mine. It is their capital at risk, not yours and not mine. Did you stop to think that perhaps by offshoring manufacturing they may have been able allocate more funding to development? Or perhaps they are facing up to the reality of increasing regulatory costs in the US and Cal?
post #3130 of 6792
This claim about Revel screwing everyone is quite funny, because Revel outsourced its production, and because of this they were able to create a line (Performa3) which is a lot cheaper than the previous one ( around 30-40% off the price from Performa2), while clearly the cabinet finish is much better, and according to Voecks (hopefully many others will later agree on this) it sounds much better.

So, I'm sorry, but in this case I don't see how I or any other one here on the forum got screwed over...

And I always very pissed, when someone comes up with this low wage ********. I read a lot of reports regarding manufacturing in the far east. People get a sallary, which from our perspective is really low, but for them it's actually a really high sallary. Every day 1000's of _NEW_ workers are gathering in front of the Foxconn manufactureing plants, where Apple is producing their goods. You know why?

Because if they had to work on a farm instead, they would earn the 1/10th of the sallary, they make there. So basically, there is a race between the people, to work there, because than they can support their families better.

Is it fair that their sallary is a lot lower than ours? No. But is it fair, that you can buy an Armani suit for 50$, from the same fabric, with the same style, while in a shop in New York you would spend a few grand for the same thing? My friend bought all the wedding dresses for the entire family in Cambodia for 500$. Here you can't even rent one for the same price... Do you know how much a decent lunch or room for a night costs there? You can be there for a week in luxury, from the same money I spent in New York for a day, while I slept in a cheap hotel, eating junkfood, from cheap places...

So next time you say, stop manufacturing in those countries for low wages, open your eyes, and let those people there decide whether they want to work or not. Believe me, if they had better opportunity of earning a lot more, they would leave in a heartbeat. But sadly, they don't. There are billions of people there, if you would stop manufacturing there, they wouldn't have any job, and wouldn't earn anything at all...

In my oppinion, if the working conditions are right (modern facilities are built that way, a lot better for the workers than 10 years ago) and quality control is the same, it doesnt matter, where Revel makes their products.
post #3131 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gugu_s View Post

This claim about Revel screwing everyone is quite funny, because Revel outsourced its production, and because of this they were able to create a line (Performa3) which is a lot cheaper than the previous one ( around 30-40% off the price from Performa2), while clearly the cabinet finish is much better, and according to Voecks (hopefully many others will later agree on this) it sounds much better.

So, I'm sorry, but in this case I don't see how I or any other one here on the forum got screwed over...

And I always very pissed, when someone comes up with this low wage ********. I read a lot of reports regarding manufacturing in the far east. People get a sallary, which from our perspective is really low, but for them it's actually a really high sallary. Every day 1000's of _NEW_ workers are gathering in front of the Foxconn manufactureing plants, where Apple is producing their goods. You know why?

Because if they had to work on a farm instead, they would earn the 1/10th of the sallary, they make there. So basically, there is a race between the people, to work there, because than they can support their families better.

Is it fair that their sallary is a lot lower than ours? No. But is it fair, that you can buy an Armani suit for 50$, from the same fabric, with the same style, while in a shop in New York you would spend a few grand for the same thing? My friend bought all the wedding dresses for the entire family in Cambodia for 500$. Here you can't even rent one for the same price... Do you know how much a decent lunch or room for a night costs there? You can be there for a week in luxury, from the same money I spent in New York for a day, while I slept in a cheap hotel, eating junkfood, from cheap places...

So next time you say, stop manufacturing in those countries for low wages, open your eyes, and let those people there decide whether they want to work or not. Believe me, if they had better opportunity of earning a lot more, they would leave in a heartbeat. But sadly, they don't. There are billions of people there, if you would stop manufacturing there, they wouldn't have any job, and wouldn't earn anything at all...

In my oppinion, if the working conditions are right (modern facilities are built that way, a lot better for the workers than 10 years ago) and quality control is the same, it doesnt matter, where Revel makes their products.

Too many attitudes like this. With all the manufacturing being outsourced abroad the future looks dismal for US workers. Where will the money come from to buy these imports when all our jobs are lost to other countries? Perhaps they will outsource to the US for meager wages. Then we can work for pennies a day and they can reap the fortunes. How fortunate we will be to have a job as they do today.
post #3132 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Too many attitudes like this. With all the manufacturing being outsourced abroad the future looks dismal for US workers. Where will the money come from to buy these imports when all our jobs are lost to other countries? Perhaps they will outsource to the US for meager wages. Then we can work for pennies a day and they can reap the fortunes. How fortunate we will be to have a job as they do today.

Exactly my point. Look at Harman...there are dozens of brands under the Harman flag. What does that mean...HIGH OVERHEAD. There are still speaker companies building speakers in Canada and the US, and competitive. But they do not have the high over head Harman has. That is the entire problem.
Kevin Voecks, Greg Timbers and the other designers are still at NorthRidge, but the guys actually building speakers are gone...I bet they figured they got screwed. And as far as development, they are still going to do what they have always been doing. There is not a better facility in the world for design and testing.

Its one thing to just south of the border and quite a different thing to set up shop in Indonesia or Malaysia(if that is in fact where the plant is).
One thing does come to mind as far as shipping goes. IF the JBL Everest II is also being built in Indonesia or Malaysia, from the stand point of shipping, that would make sense as the Everest was really developed for the Japanese market, not the US. Those countries are certainly much closer to Japan than NA.
post #3133 of 6792
You know, this is one thing we could agree on, and actually I wanted to write this down also, but my post was already too long.

But I totally agree, everything is outsourced, or everyone is replaced by robotics... 20 years ago in the car business (which is my territory in Europe) a lot more people worked in the factories... Nowdays, you need only 1/5th of them. And what do all these people do, they are people without jobs, just a few of them
Were able to adapt to the different type of work. And it is only getting worser every year... frown.giffrown.gif
post #3134 of 6792
I'm not going to quote anyone and its a free country, so Revel and others can do what they want. That being said, manafacturers have to find a way to bring the jobs back home, It's out of hand. I'm not picking on any country or group when I say that, years ago if it was made in Japan you didn't want it. Because it was considered to be of a lesser quality, God forbid if it was made in china it was even lower in quality. I know things have changed and the quality is probably as good as if they were made here but IMO people would gladly pay a few dollars more to keep our jobs at home. But there's a flip side to this also, I own a roofing & siding company that my dad started in 1958. I didn't jump into his position over night, he worked my ass off as a young man. I started in the summer when I was out of school when I was 12, cleaning up the job site and running the hot tar kettle. Anyway I have to hire foreign workers now as no one else will do this kind of work.. Well some will, but I got sick and tired of getting guys out of bed, that forgot to stop drinking or whatever the night before. My point is the some American workers need to wake up and quit worrying about getting drunk (or high or just being lazy) and open their eyes and realize we're being passed by. There are models out there on how American companies are revolutionizing the audio business. One of them posts occasionally on here and went out of his way to offer his services to me, and I took him up on his offer. I'm not here to blow smoke or bring attention to anyone as I could care less what anyone thinks of me. You want your jobs to stay in your country? Take a look online and see who's doing it right, not consumed by greed. How much money do you need, one million, a billion? It's about customer service in my business and making sure that 10 different families (my workers) are financially sound. Thanks for listening.
Edited by comfynumb - 2/3/13 at 7:30am
post #3135 of 6792
Has anyone compared the M105 to M106? I didn't get a chance to listen to them yet. Since these will be used for surrounds, no other brands will work.
post #3136 of 6792
Now that most everyone has had their say about Global Economics can we please get back to the thread topic?
It's a worthy topic but best left for another place.
Thanks.
post #3137 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Now that most everyone has had their say about Global Economics can we please get back to the thread topic?
It's a worthy topic but best left for another place.
Thanks.

It hasn't been mentioned in 4 hours. If not for that the thread would be dead today. Proceed.
post #3138 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Does anyone have any thoughts on a normal 15 amp house receptacle having enough juice to power my Sunfire 200x7 amp? I'm in the wrong thread but you guys are knowledgeable. Also on this same circuit is a 1500 watt class D sub. Thanks.

Your room lights will dim to the beat of the music as the wall voltage drops trying to supply enough current. You could stick a voltmeter in the wall socket to check the voltage.
post #3139 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

Your room lights will dim to the beat of the music as the wall voltage drops trying to supply enough current. You could stick a voltmeter in the wall socket to check the voltage.



So far that's not happening to me, it's surprising. But before I add another amp I'm going to have some dedicated lines run. Thanks.
post #3140 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

So far that's not happening to me, it's surprising. But before I add another amp I'm going to have some dedicated lines run. Thanks.

Either amp alone will not over power the circuit. I doubt that both together will. What are the chances that you will drive either to the max?
post #3141 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

So far that's not happening to me, it's surprising. But before I add another amp I'm going to have some dedicated lines run. Thanks.

You should be able to get by with one 20 amp/12ga circuit. I only ran one line into a new LR I built that had 5 outlets on the circuit. Never blew the breaker. Only had one table lamp and the blower to the gas fireplace connected, which were never on while the system was. Everything else on that circuit was AV.
post #3142 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Either amp alone will not over power the circuit. I doubt that both together will. What are the chances that you will drive either to the max?



That's true.
post #3143 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

You should be able to get by with one 20 amp/12ga circuit. I only ran one line into a new LR I built that had 5 outlets on the circuit. Never blew the breaker. Only had one table lamp and the blower to the gas fireplace connected, which were never on while the system was. Everything else on that circuit was AV.



I hear you, my wire is #14 for the 15 amp receptacles. So a new 20 amp line will be #12 wire. I think I'm about at my limit with the powered sub and using 5 channels on my amp. I won't be adding a new amp for a little bit so I've got time.
post #3144 of 6792
Any Harman folks here care to comment on who the Rhythm2 is targeted towards? It's slotted in the Ultima2 line, and is shown at CES2013 with the Salon2, which suggests that it would be a good complement to the full range towers. However, the Salon2 is already -3db at 23Hz and quite capable of playing loud. The 6x 8-inch drivers on a pair of Salon2 has more surface area than a single Rhythm2's 18" driver. I can imagine there are still benefits, especially if multiple Rhythm2s are added, but I'd like to hear Harman's thinking on where the biggest gain would come from.
post #3145 of 6792
Someone who wants a sub for their theater setup.
Even the Salon2s won't reproduce the LFE in movies at anything near reference SPL.
Even though there are 3 woofers in the Salons, there is no sub-stitute for a large purpose-built driver like this for delving the depths.
Someone with Revel monitors who wants some real bass to go along with them.

Lots of manufacturers make full-range speakers and also offer a sub or 2.
Nothing really odd about that.
post #3146 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutralguy View Post

Any Harman folks here care to comment on who the Rhythm2 is targeted towards? It's slotted in the Ultima2 line, and is shown at CES2013 with the Salon2, which suggests that it would be a good complement to the full range towers. However, the Salon2 is already -3db at 23Hz and quite capable of playing loud. The 6x 8-inch drivers on a pair of Salon2 has more surface area than a single Rhythm2's 18" driver. I can imagine there are still benefits, especially if multiple Rhythm2s are added, but I'd like to hear Harman's thinking on where the biggest gain would come from.

No big deal. I use dual Funk 18.0 subs with my Salon2 even for music, and I'm confident the Funk 18.0 will outperform the Rhythm2 from 10Hz-200Hz.

The target consumers are rich people who must have matching brands of everything - speakers & subs.

I'm not the target consumer even if I were a billionaire. I would take Funk 18.0 subs over any subs from Revel, KEF, B&W, Focal, Velodyne, JL, etc.

Well, okay, if I were a billionaire I would take the Focal Grande Utopia speakers & the Utopia UNPOWERED subs. biggrin.gif

I bet people didn't know that the $15,000 Focal Utopia subs are unpowered. biggrin.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 2/6/13 at 6:55am
post #3147 of 6792
So what about a pair of Wilson Thor's Hammer subs? The best I have had the pleasure to hear were twin JL F212s, not too shabby.
post #3148 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

No big deal. I use dual Funk 18.0 subs with my Salon2 even for music, and I'm confident the Funk 18.0 will outperform the Rhythm2 from 10Hz-200Hz.

The target consumers are rich people who must have matching brands of everything - speakers & subs.

I'm not the target consumer even if I were a billionaire. I would take Funk 18.0 subs over any subs from Revel, KEF, B&W, Focal, Velodyne, JL, etc.

Well, okay, if I were a billionaire I would take the Focal Grande Utopia speakers & the Utopia UNPOWERED subs. biggrin.gif

I bet people didn't know that the $15,000 Focal Utopia subs are unpowered. biggrin.gif

The science that Harman embraces suggests that subwoofers have no magical attributes like musical, fast, punchy, or tight, beyond what's characterized by frequency response, distortion, and maximum SPL. I'd like to know in which of these areas a pair of Salon2 would most gain from a sub. If it's an SPL issue, for what minimum SPL would the benefits apply?
post #3149 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutralguy View Post

The science that Harman embraces suggests that subwoofers have no magical attributes like musical, fast, punchy, or tight, beyond what's characterized by frequency response, distortion, and maximum SPL. I'd like to know in which of these areas a pair of Salon2 would most gain from a sub. If it's an SPL issue, for what minimum SPL would the benefits apply?

Well, for one, I doubt the Salon2 or any towers can produce 115dB peak SPL @ 12ft away from 20Hz-100Hz. Heck, they can't even do 100dB SPL here.

So, it just depends on what kind of bass you want.

My wife doesn't even want any bass at all.
post #3150 of 6792
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutralguy View Post

The science that Harman embraces suggests that subwoofers have no magical attributes like musical, fast, punchy, or tight, beyond what's characterized by frequency response, distortion, and maximum SPL. I'd like to know in which of these areas a pair of Salon2 would most gain from a sub. If it's an SPL issue, for what minimum SPL would the benefits apply?

I'm sure others can chime in with more technical explanations, but especially in larger rooms, a subwoofer will reproduce those lower notes at lower distortion than the Salon2s and offer more maximum SPL if called upon to do so.

Soundstage performed measurements of the Salon2 (available here ). At 50Hz, measured at 2 meters from the speaker at 90dB, there is about a 25-26dB difference between the 50Hz frequency response curve and the corresponding THD+N curve. In their explanation of measurements, a 30dB difference is 3% THD, 20dB difference is 10% THD, so by my guess 25-26dB would be in that 5-6% area.

By comparison, a subwoofer like the SVS PB13-Ultra as measured by Audioholics can hit 117dB at 2m at 50Hz before producing distortion of that magnitude.

So although there are no THD+N measurements I can find lower than 50Hz, at those lower frequencies I bet the difference is even greater between a subwoofer and the loudspeaker. As others have mentioned, does everyone need or want 90+dB at their listening positions for those low frequencies? Probably not, but if that is what you are looking for, a subwoofer can reproduce those frequencies at a higher SPL and with lower distortion.
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