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Revel Owners Thread - Page 124

post #3691 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post

Is the salon 2 and studio 2 more forward or laid back then the 208?

I'm used to bipolar towers, so it hard trying to get back to the monopole sound stage. Looking to demo KEF next since they use an interesting mid/tweeter setup. Thinking the sound maybe more klipsch sounding with better mids.
I hope you get to compare the R700 / R900 to the 206 / 208. I have been a fan of Kef for a long time but am also now a big fan of Revel having auditioned the Studio2s. Such great options! I also would love to hear the new Performa3s, especially the 208s.
post #3692 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I hope you get to compare the R700 / R900 to the 206 / 208. I have been a fan of Kef for a long time but am also now a big fan of Revel having auditioned the Studio2s. Such great options! I also would love to hear the new Performa3s, especially the 208s.

The store doesn't have Revel and KEF, just KEF and some other brands I'd like to check out. I really enjoyed the sound and ease of use with the 206 so far, but sill not sure if it's enough to replace all my flagship Def Tech's.
post #3693 of 6828
I too would love to see a comparative review between the KEF R700, R900 and the Revel Performa3 F206, F208. Infact, a lot of us would be very glad to see a comparison between these speakers. KEF R series has already captured the chequered flag, so it would be interesting to see if the newcomer Revel performa3 can take away the flag or the KEF R will retain it.
post #3694 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Illuminating.
The F208 handily outperforms the F52 in these tests.
Wait... do I sense a pair of F52s being posted on Audiogon? wink.gif

Kevin, please don't post the same about F208s compared to Studio2s.
Let me live in blissful sonic ignorance at least until the Studio3s are released.



Yeah that kind of burst my bubble. But I think the 52's would make a great set of rears biggrin.gif honestly the only thing I would trade them for is a set of Studios or Salons, and that will happen down the road.
Edited by comfynumb - 4/25/13 at 8:20am
post #3695 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by avkv View Post

Comfynumb,

I acknowledge that we have failed to make it known that the Revel policy is to bring in competitors for each of our models during development, based on a similar price range and recommendations from our dealers, distributors and press reviews. We compare them in the world's only position-independent, double-blind listening facility. We do not approve production until we have proven our superiority, not just in our extensive objective measurements, but also in carefully conducted listening tests. The "competitors" always include our previous models. The F208 handily outperforms the F52 in these tests. In fact, the F206 outperforms the F52 in every way except ultimate LF extension and absolute output capability. The difference in LF extension would not likely be noticed outside of such a sensitive test. (The speakers currently playing are moved into the same position in a matter of a few seconds.) Our testing process not only removes extraneous "nuisance variables" like position-dependence and sighted listening, but importantly, it brings the differences into sharp relief. Our engineering team can't resist putting more-expensive speakers in these tests, and in fact, the F208 beat speakers over $25,000/pair in these controlled listening tests.

Happy listening!

Kevin



Well I know you and your company are on top of things Mr Voeck and I appreciate the info. I just bought my 52's and I'm really happy with them. The have bested many higher priced speakers in their own right. Did you have to tell me the 208 and 206's are better? Now I'll have to look into the Studios or Salons biggrin.gif

I would be interested to know in what areas the new line is superior over the F32 and F52? Are all of the speakers in your testing positioned exactly the same distance from the back and side walls?

Thanks.
Edited by comfynumb - 4/25/13 at 8:34am
post #3696 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by avkv View Post

Comfynumb,

I acknowledge that we have failed to make it known that the Revel policy is to bring in competitors for each of our models during development, based on a similar price range and recommendations from our dealers, distributors and press reviews. We compare them in the world's only position-independent, double-blind listening facility. We do not approve production until we have proven our superiority, not just in our extensive objective measurements, but also in carefully conducted listening tests. The "competitors" always include our previous models. The F208 handily outperforms the F52 in these tests. In fact, the F206 outperforms the F52 in every way except ultimate LF extension and absolute output capability. The difference in LF extension would not likely be noticed outside of such a sensitive test. (The speakers currently playing are moved into the same position in a matter of a few seconds.) Our testing process not only removes extraneous "nuisance variables" like position-dependence and sighted listening, but importantly, it brings the differences into sharp relief. Our engineering team can't resist putting more-expensive speakers in these tests, and in fact, the F208 beat speakers over $25,000/pair in these controlled listening tests.

Happy listening!

Kevin

Kevin, how many subjects took part in these DBT?

I am not 100% convinced that less than 50 of subjects will provide an unequivocal result.

And since not 100% of all subjects prefer the F208, is it possible that some may actually prefer the F52 over the F208 or prefer the $25,000 speakers over the F208?
post #3697 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Well I know you and your company are on top of things Mr Voeck and I appreciate the info. I just bought my 52's and I'm really happy with them. The have bested many higher priced speakers in their own right. Did you have to tell me the 208 and 206's are better? Now I'll have to look into the Studios or Salons biggrin.gif

I would be interested to know in what areas the new line is superior over the F32 and F52?

Thanks.

What the DBT does not tell us is the degree/ magnitude/ significance of the Preference of the F208 over another speaker.

Sure, one speaker could be preferred over another if a person has to choose, but that does NOT mean the other speaker does not also sound GREAT.

For example, if there were 20 people in the DBT, maybe 13 people preferred the F208 and 7 people preferred the other speaker. Why? Because the decision was DIFFICULT to make or pretty close call, even if one is slightly preferred over another.

If the Preference were Unequivocal, then 100% of all people would choose only the F208.
post #3698 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by avkv View Post

Comfynumb,

I acknowledge that we have failed to make it known that the Revel policy is to bring in competitors for each of our models during development, based on a similar price range and recommendations from our dealers, distributors and press reviews. We compare them in the world's only position-independent, double-blind listening facility. We do not approve production until we have proven our superiority, not just in our extensive objective measurements, but also in carefully conducted listening tests. The "competitors" always include our previous models. The F208 handily outperforms the F52 in these tests. In fact, the F206 outperforms the F52 in every way except ultimate LF extension and absolute output capability. The difference in LF extension would not likely be noticed outside of such a sensitive test. (The speakers currently playing are moved into the same position in a matter of a few seconds.) Our testing process not only removes extraneous "nuisance variables" like position-dependence and sighted listening, but importantly, it brings the differences into sharp relief. Our engineering team can't resist putting more-expensive speakers in these tests, and in fact, the F208 beat speakers over $25,000/pair in these controlled listening tests.

Happy listening!

Kevin
Are these tests performed in your listening rooms or in the anechoic chamber?

From what I've read, you typically use trained listeners and the basis for preference is predicated on how 'natural or accurate' the speaker sounds when reproducing music. If that's the basis, then are you saying that the F208 is more accurate than the F52 when it comes to reproducing music? What do you attribute this to - improved off axis response, improved mitigation of the back wave, improved waterfall response, or what?

Now, it's my understanding that the listening tests that you perform only involves one speaker. This is because while Harman's investigations have found that trained listeners typically find negligble difference using two speakers, it's easier and more rapid to use just one. If that's the case, what happens when you go to a multi-channel configuration? Would not trained listeners then find it increasingly difficult as one added more speakers to the mix to establish a reliable preference? Perhaps sufficiently difficult that rankings may change or that the data would have too much noise to speak with any certainty? Or maybe under a multichannel configuration something other than off axis response begins to take center stage?
post #3699 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

What the DBT does not tell us is the degree/ magnitude/ significance of the Preference of the F208 over another speaker.

Sure, one speaker could be preferred over another if a person has to choose, but that does NOT mean the other speaker does not also sound GREAT.

For example, if there were 20 people in the DBT, maybe 13 people preferred the F208 and 7 people preferred the other speaker. Why? Because the decision was DIFFICULT to make or pretty close call, even if one is slightly preferred over another.

If the Preference were Unequivocal, then 100% of all people would choose only the F208.



I agree 100% it's not an easy thing to be put on the spot and everyone has different tastes. They could all do what you did and not choose and just get all the competitors biggrin.gif
Edited by comfynumb - 4/25/13 at 9:16am
post #3700 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by raylover79 View Post

I too would love to see a comparative review between the KEF R700, R900 and the Revel Performa3 F206, F208. Infact, a lot of us would be very glad to see a comparison between these speakers. KEF R series has already captured the chequered flag, so it would be interesting to see if the newcomer Revel performa3 can take away the flag or the KEF R will retain it.
LOL at the bold part. Thanks for the morning laugh. smile.gif
post #3701 of 6828
Breaking news! The new Performa3 outperforms the Performa2. What? Come on!!! What kind of test was this? How many subjects? I want the scorecards and I want it now!!! :-)

Let's have some common sense here.

What AVKV hasn't said in this forum was how close the F208 sounds vs. the Studio2. Well, it's obvious that it was "engineered" to be a just a tiny step below the top of the line - Studio2s reign supreme.

F208 should be better than the F52...so what? I plan on keeping my F208s for many many years. So when the performa4 comes out, F208s will be much worse - relatively - in absolute sense, still as good as the day I bought it. :-)
post #3702 of 6828
DBT, especially Harman's own, are great, but they only go so far.

You can't predicate your buying decisions on DBT alone, just like you can't rely on speaker measurements alone. wink.gif
post #3703 of 6828
I'm going to add this to the mix. My apologies to Milt. So if the 206 and 208 sound better that the F32 and F52 Are we are getting into them possibly being in the same league as the Studio and Salon? When I say league I'm being very general as I've never heard them. I've heard several times that people do not hear much difference between the Studio and Salons. To be honest my 52's are the only Revels I've heard so I'm basically clueless when I ask. Or are the Studio and Salons just totally in a league of there own when compared to the 52's and 206/208? I can take it so give it to me straight Studio/Salon owners biggrin.gif
But I'm thrilled with mine and thanks to Mr Deacon I know I could not have done better.

I want to add that I researched the hell out of speakers in my price range and it looks like us owners are getting more for their money than ever before as there are many choices. Just look at what Revel did with the 206/208 they increased performance for around 2 grand less.
post #3704 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

DBT, especially Harman's own, are great, but they only go so far.

You can't predicate your buying decisions on DBT alone, just like you can't rely on speaker measurements alone. wink.gif
Sure, that's why some designers, who are responsible for the look of a product make more than the engineers who made it. Also why Harman spent a cool bundle on getting JLo in commercials.
post #3705 of 6828
I figured Kevin's post would set off a flurry of replies.
comfy, it's not like your speakers or any other Revel speakers have turned into a pile of dog crap just because they released a new line, right?
I'm thinking it's all about incremental improvements and whether and how much those improvements matter to the end user.
Sure, the DBTs are designed to reveal or point out any improvement or change from one speaker to another.
How much those differences matter to paying consumers and not testers can be a big variable because money is involved and not just a test exercise.
I read an article\white paper some years ago about the Harman test room written by Floyd Toole. Pretty impressive.
I don't remember all of the details but they have the ability to precisely & quickly position different speakers and level match so the tests are as close to equal as possible.

If I was in the speaker market right now I'd obviously be checking out the F208s.
I'm sure that several mags will be publishing reviews in a couple of months or so and will be comparing them to their predecessors and the Ultima line.

I don't think it's realistic to hope for a direct comparison between the Revels and several other speaker lines and if there was it would obviously be colored by the person doing it.
Just read some of the speaker GTGs in this thread, they're generally all over the place.

Anyway, I'm glad for the guys that have the good fortune and timing to be able to get these speakers right off the bat.
Just try not to be so smug tongue.gif
post #3706 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Sure, that's why some designers, who are responsible for the look of a product make more than the engineers who made it. Also why Harman spent a cool bundle on getting JLo in commercials.

JLo was in some Harman commercials?

Damn I love Harman. biggrin.gif
post #3707 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

I'm sure that several mags will be publishing reviews in a couple of months or so and will be comparing them to their predecessors and the Ultima line.

I assume the F208/206 will both measure better than the F52?

"The F52's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.44/–2.37 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 41 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 25 Hz."

http://www.hometheater.com/content/revel-performa-f52-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 4/25/13 at 11:02am
post #3708 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

I figured Kevin's post would set off a flurry of replies.
comfy, it's not like your speakers or any other Revel speakers have turned into a pile of dog crap just because they released a new line, right?
I'm thinking it's all about incremental improvements and whether and how much those improvements matter to the end user.
Sure, the DBTs are designed to reveal or point out any improvement or change from one speaker to another.
How much those differences matter to paying consumers and not testers can be a big variable because money is involved and not just a test exercise.
I read an article\white paper some years ago about the Harman test room written by Floyd Toole. Pretty impressive.
I don't remember all of the details but they have the ability to precisely & quickly position different speakers and level match so the tests are as close to equal as possible.

If I was in the speaker market right now I'd obviously be checking out the F208s.
I'm sure that several mags will be publishing reviews in a couple of months or so and will be comparing them to their predecessors and the Ultima line.

I don't think it's realistic to hope for a direct comparison between the Revels and several other speaker lines and if there was it would obviously be colored by the person doing it.
Just read some of the speaker GTGs in this thread, they're generally all over the place.

Anyway, I'm glad for the guys that have the good fortune and timing to be able to get these speakers right off the bat.
Just try not to be so smug tongue.gif



Milt, I know my speakers are far from dog doo but he did make it seem like they are yesterday's news but hey to me they are a pretty special speaker. I know the higher end Revel's are better but I'm happy for now. Like I said they'll make a nice pair of rears eventually. I would love to move up to your Studio's within a couple of years, at least that's the plan smile.gif
Edited by comfynumb - 4/25/13 at 11:47am
post #3709 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Milt, I know my speakers are far from dog doo but he did make it seem like they are yesterday's news but hey to me they are a pretty special speaker. I know the higher end Revel's are better but I'm happy for now. Like I said they'll make a nice pair of rears eventually. I would love to move up to your Studio's within a couple of years, at least that's the plan smile.gif

Exactly, you have a game plan.

I'm sure the dealer let you know the F208 were coming our or were out. Its always tough when a new model is released... how much better is the new model? The old model that are clearing at what discount etc. The value proposition is up in the air.

Well, I'm not one of the smug ones. F52s should sound the same to you when you got them before AVKV's comments which is fantastic. And don't forget, he has speakers to sell too - so take it all in context.
post #3710 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Milt, I know my speakers are far from dog doo but he did make it seem like they are yesterday's news but hey to me they are a pretty special speaker. I know the higher end Revel's are better but I'm happy for now. Like I said they'll make a nice pair of rears eventually. I would love to move up to your Studio's within a couple of years, at least that's the plan smile.gif

That's precisely what they want you to feel and do.

And as soon as you buy a Studio2, they are going to make you feel like the Studio3 is just so much better and wins hands down in their DBT. biggrin.gif
post #3711 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

Exactly, you have a game plan.

I'm sure the dealer let you know the F208 were coming our or were out. Its always tough when a new model is released... how much better is the new model? The old model that are clearing at what discount etc. The value proposition is up in the air.

Well, I'm not one of the smug ones. F52s should sound the same to you when you got them before AVKV's comments which is fantastic. And don't forget, he has speakers to sell too - so take it all in context.



I knew the new line was out or about to come out, but at 5 grand for the 208's they were higher than I wanted to pay, so I'm the one that pursued the 52's, and bought them for less than the retail price of the 206's. which is how I might buy the Studios in the future. if they ever became available for less than half of the retail price I'd have to hide my wallet biggrin.gif I assumed that the 208's would be a better sounding speaker, but I couldn't justify paying 2 grand more. And who's to say that side by side I wouldn't have preferred the 52's? It's all preference, but I do believe there's a price range where sound quality starts to level off so to speak and you don't hear a blatant difference like you do between a $2,000 pair of speakers and $8,000 pair of speakers. As far as being smug, really no one is on this thread, everyone tries to help and they let me right in the club and now if I buy more speakers it will be Revel's. The build quality is amazing, where the veneers meet it almost looks seamless. Great binding posts and you gotta love a speaker with controls on the back.
Edited by comfynumb - 4/25/13 at 1:56pm
post #3712 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I assume the F208/206 will both measure better than the F52?

"The F52's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.44/–2.37 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 41 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 25 Hz."

http://www.hometheater.com/content/revel-performa-f52-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

But will the F208/206 measure better than the $200 and some change NHT Absolute Zero with HTM? Highly unlikely, but I'll gladly trade you a pair of the better measuring NHT AZs for a pair of F208/205s. I'd even trade them for a pair of F52s! biggrin.gif
post #3713 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I assume the F208/206 will both measure better than the F52?

"The F52's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.44/–2.37 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 41 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 25 Hz."

http://www.hometheater.com/content/revel-performa-f52-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures



What does listening window response mean?
post #3714 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Kevin, how many subjects took part in these DBT?

I am not 100% convinced that less than 50 of subjects will provide an unequivocal result.

And since not 100% of all subjects prefer the F208, is it possible that some may actually prefer the F52 over the F208 or prefer the $25,000 speakers over the F208?

The way Revel/Harman does the tests is with trained listeners. Harman actually has FREE software to help you train yourself to pickup nuances and differences in the frequencies or in the playback. Sean Oliver is the driving force behind this. YOu can download the software for free here on his blog: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2011/03/harman-how-to-listen-listener-training.html
post #3715 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

Breaking news! The new Performa3 outperforms the Performa2. What? Come on!!! What kind of test was this? How many subjects? I want the scorecards and I want it now!!! :-)

Let's have some common sense here.

What AVKV hasn't said in this forum was how close the F208 sounds vs. the Studio2. Well, it's obvious that it was "engineered" to be a just a tiny step below the top of the line - Studio2s reign supreme.

F208 should be better than the F52...so what? I plan on keeping my F208s for many many years. So when the performa4 comes out, F208s will be much worse - relatively - in absolute sense, still as good as the day I bought it. :-)

In terms of the subjects. Sean Oliver's team did a correlation with the number of subjects and how that scales out. Everyone should listen to Sean Oliver's interview on the Home Theater Geeks podcast. Kevin has also been a guest. I recall Dr. Oliver talking about the number of subjects used and they were able to back it up statistically with the number. They even did high school students at one point in the interview which is interesting.

Regardless, the one thing with Revel is the meticulous attention to the specs and the numbers. One thing you can bank on with them, they're not into fudging the numbers. You can't speak that way about other brands.
post #3716 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esox50 View Post

We tried to tell some of you re the F208, but no...the "point at the specs" or "where it's manufactured" or "why did they lower the price" crowd of know it alls had to chime in...none of which probably even heard the speakers. But that's the internet for ya.

Meanwhile, those of us in the know...have had a big smile ear to ear since we got our F208s over the last several weeks.
I was actually joking but here's Mr. Smug
post #3717 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

but I'll gladly trade you a pair of the better measuring NHT AZs for a pair of F208/205s. I'd even trade them for a pair of F52s! biggrin.gif
Crickets......
post #3718 of 6828
Chirp chirp chirp
post #3719 of 6828
Have a C52 and M20s, auditioned the C208 and M106s with a view to upgrade. The new speakers seemed smoother but not as crisp or bright as the C52 and M20s. A drummer beating his sticks together to count off the start of a song sings out with the C52 and M20s.

A few years back, loved the M20, was not impressed with the M22 replacement. Science advances but my ears stay the same:)
post #3720 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

But will the F208/206 measure better than the $200 and some change NHT Absolute Zero with HTM? Highly unlikely, but I'll gladly trade you a pair of the better measuring NHT AZs for a pair of F208/205s. I'd even trade them for a pair of F52s! biggrin.gif

Well, HTM got +0.94/–0.82 dB Listening Window, but S&V got +/-2.9dB FR on the Absolute Zero.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-nht-absolute-51t-speaker-system?page=0,3

So it depends on who's measuring what on which day, etc. biggrin.gif

But the Klipsch KL-650-THX got +/-1.0 dB from TWO Independent 3rd parties!

That's more impressive to me.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/satellite/klipsch-thx-ultra2/page-5

http://www.hometheater.com/content/klipsch-thx-ultra2-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

Here's the thing. Harman is huge on FR measurements. It's their research that speakers with flatter FR & smoother off-axis will have better sound.

So if we throw measurements out the window, then all we have is some people liking speaker A and some people liking speaker B just because they were either trained to or because they just felt like it.
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