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Revel Owners Thread - Page 125

post #3721 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post

Have a C52 and M20s, auditioned the C208 and M106s with a view to upgrade. The new speakers seemed smoother but not as crisp or bright as the C52 and M20s. A drummer beating his sticks together to count off the start of a song sings out with the C52 and M20s.

A few years back, loved the M20, was not impressed with the M22 replacement. Science advances but my ears stay the same:)

It's really about personal preference, not what the manufacturers say is better.

They are clearly biased. They need to sell speakers. Using TRAINED LISTENERS is not representative of most people or most audiophiles.

I mean, come on, really, when we listen to an album, do we listen to the music or to the speakers? eek.gif

Can we hear the vocals and instruments crystal clear? Is the soundstage large or convincing?

That's what we ultimately care, right? We want the music to sound crystal clear, convincing; we want it enjoyable and entertaining and emotional.

It's all personal preference. Just because it's new does not make it better, but that's what manufacturers want us to believe.
post #3722 of 6882
First off, speakers that are amazing to you will not stop being so just because a new model is released. Very good speakers will sound very similar as they reproduce sound very well.
Second, which I learned is that speakers, like music preferences, are personal and hence, subjective. It is what sounds good to you. Golden Ear Triton 2s sound impressive on a lot of material. The problem for me is they fall down on upper midrange / lower treble and I no longer have any interest. Others rave about them. Studio2s shined on everything I threw at them. That is why I look forward to whatever Kevin and Company release and would not bet against them. Oh, and would guess that I might just like them.
post #3723 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

The way Revel/Harman does the tests is with trained listeners.

When we do DBT in the medical field, we don't just hand pick only patients that might respond best to the drugs. We do randomized selections w/ certain limitations (contraindications).

I see cherry-picking only Harman trained listeners as a negative thing, not a positive thing since Harman trained listeners are not representative of most audiophiles.
post #3724 of 6882
Most of your med patients don't go around licking paint or eating dirt as a medical treatment, but most untrained listeners do the aural equivalent. They dwell in the unlit basement of audio. I don't care what untrained listeners hear.

By the way, have you read about the Harman training process?
post #3725 of 6882
I've tried it. From my brief exposure to the Harmon listener training, I think one of the primary purposes is to develop a common frame of reference and communication between the listeners and the Harmon proffesionals. I got the impression that the Harmon engineers are looking for more than "I like speaker A" type of responses from the listeners. The listener training should allow higher quality feedback on why one speaker is prefered over another.

I was doing OK with the training, on the band-id levels, until it got to be too much for my very limited pc speakers. I have to try the training on the main system.
post #3726 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post

Have a C52 and M20s, auditioned the C208 and M106s with a view to upgrade. The new speakers seemed smoother but not as crisp or bright as the C52 and M20s. A drummer beating his sticks together to count off the start of a song sings out with the C52 and M20s.

A few years back, loved the M20, was not impressed with the M22 replacement. Science advances but my ears stay the same:)



Hi, just because they are new and measure well doesn't mean all will like them. I'm sure they are an amazing speaker and by all accounts all Revel"s are, but everyone's taste isn't the same and it makes me think how true Mr ADTG's statement is about doing a test with with 50 people, they all won't pick the same speaker. I remember listening to the Bose 901's probably around 1978 or 79, and honestly I thought they sounded horrible, but they were a very placement dependent speaker. So yeah until you find your speakers worthy replacement as YOU hear it enjoy.
post #3727 of 6882
Here's the problem I have with this training stuff. If a company is training you to be a listener aren't they really teaching you how to pick up the characteristics of "their" sound? I believe a speaker company never really wanders far from "their" sound because that's what people look for in that speaker company. I mean this makes sense if you are a company training people but as someone who isn't interested in training wouldn't better training come from listening to different speakers and being able to pick up on their different traits? I mean I would much rather hear a reviewers opinion of a speaker I was interested in if they had experienced many different brands rather than someone trained to pick up the traits of one brand.



I'm assuming that these trained listeners are in an acoustically perfect room/chamber. What would happen if we brought them to my acoustical nightmare of a room, would they come up with the same opinions? Everyone's room is different and speaker A in a special room probably will not sound the same in a customers room. I'm not picking on Revel or any other company I'm just trying to be realistic.
Edited by comfynumb - 4/26/13 at 4:54am
post #3728 of 6882
Questioning Revels' double blind test and training to be better listeners, why? Because AVKV wanted to put the question on Performa2 vs Performa3 to rest?

Buying last year's model has pros and cons and sometimes the deal wasn't as good of a deal at the end of the day. Also, no one pays msrp so F52 really wasn't 2k cheaper than the F208, street price. And F206 can easily be bought for under 3k I'm sure.

Nevertheless, the F52 is just as good a few days ago before AVKV spoke up and said something that was not very surprising...new model is better than old model. You can probably sell it and recoup most of the cost if you really want...just a thought.
post #3729 of 6882
I'm not questioning or picking on their training or testing. I'm just saying I'd like to hear from someone that isn't basically an employee of a company also, whether it be Revel or any other company. I'm also not saying that the new line isn't better than than the ones I bought, in fact they should be and I'm sure they are. But wouldn't you rather hear the opinions of Milt or ADTG that have or had many different brands of speakers in their lives? Not that I don't appreciate Mr Voecks posts because I do. I'm being honest when I say that the next pair of speakers that I buy will be Revel's, but I do want to hear from owners of other brands as it would be boring without comparisons. As far as retail prices no one should be paying retail for the new line either. I just bought a new pre/pro also and the dealer took my old one on a trade. I won't be selling my 52's anytime soon, I'm very happy with them and can see them in my setup for a long time. Have you seen the reviews on the 52's? IMO the new line has some big shoes to fill which it undoubtedly will smile.gif

Example;
I'm a roofing & siding contractor and this company just came out with a new shingle. Ultimately as the one in the field I'm going to be able to tell you how it is over a rep that's looking to sell their new line. But the customer asks what about the other shingle that has been out for 10 years? Now I have to justify the new line. So what is the rep going to do tell them the new line is crap? So if I'm the customer what do I do? I'd suggest getting more than one estimate and contact the references from previous customers. It's the same with any business and as one of our presidents said "trust but verify"
Edited by comfynumb - 4/26/13 at 8:11am
post #3730 of 6882
This is a Revel Owners Thread, so I assume most of us are owners and we do love Revel speakers. I love my Salon2.

So none of us are taking anything away from Harman's great research. Some of us think it could be improved upon.

We may differ in our opinions as to how we feel about the subject selection. Some of us think it is a "conflict of interest" to select only Harman trained subjects.

But audio DBT is UTTERLY NOTHING like medical DBT, so let's not even pretend for one second that it is.

As good as Harman's DBT is, it has a lot more limitations.

We can't say the results are BLACK & WHITE. For example, just because 20 out of 30 Harman-trained listeners preferred one speaker does NOT make it unequivocally BETTER. The only thing we can conclude is that the speaker is excellent.

So I think for a manufacturer to blatanly & unequivocally say "Speaker A is SO MUCH BETTER than speaker B because the majority of our Harman-trained listeners THINK SO in our DBT" is just WRONG.

It is not that black & white.
post #3731 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

This is a Revel Owners Thread, so I assume most of us are owners and we do love Revel speakers. I love my Salon2.

So none of us are taking anything away from Harman's great research. Some of us think it could be improved upon.

We may differ in our opinions as to how we feel about the subject selection. Some of us think it is a "conflict of interest" to select only Harman trained subjects.

But audio DBT is UTTERLY NOTHING like medical DBT, so let's not even pretend for one second that it is.

As good as Harman's DBT is, it has a lot more limitations.

We can't say the results are BLACK & WHITE. For example, just because 20 out of 30 Harman-trained listeners preferred one speaker does NOT make it unequivocally BETTER. The only thing we can conclude is that the speaker is excellent.

So I think for a manufacturer to blatanly & unequivocally say "Speaker A is SO MUCH BETTER than speaker B because the majority of our Harman-trained listeners THINK SO in our DBT" is just WRONG.

It is not that black & white.



+1
post #3732 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

When we do DBT in the medical field, we don't just hand pick only patients that might respond best to the drugs. We do randomized selections w/ certain limitations (contraindications).

I see cherry-picking only Harman trained listeners as a negative thing, not a positive thing since Harman trained listeners are not representative of most audiophiles.

If you get a chance, listen to the podcast, that's where some of those specific issues are addressed. The difference becomes you're asking a person to make a judgement/opinion on what sounds better. Do you want random selections of trained people or just random selections of people (non-audiophiles), etc. It's a very interesting point here. The difference in the analogy becomes akin to ranking displays. Many people will think "torch mode" LOOKS better but unless they've seen and experienced a properly calibrated display they won't know the difference. The other differentiator that is important in the controlled environment is the consistent acoustic lab at harman. The controls are the other speakers and those that are randomly put before the listener--in exactly the same room and in exactly the same location. Bottom line, I understand exactly what you're saying with the medical analogy; I just don't think you can translate it 100% because you also need to test a drug against people with the same illness or condition. In our case, we all suffer audio-aholic-sim wink.gif So I think it's our demographic that needs curing! biggrin.gif
post #3733 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

+1

Remember it's not just the listeners... the listeners help confirm the research and design!!! wink.gif

Something must be right about the process... we're here in this forum aren't we?! biggrin.gif
post #3734 of 6882
Yes we are and I'm not posting over any dislike of Revel speakers and I'm not saying the new line isn't better. I believe Revel felt the pressure from other speaker companies offering comparable speakers (to the Performa2) for less money, I didn't say better just comparable. I think their products are amazing or I wouldn't have bought them biggrin.gif
post #3735 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Yes we are and I'm not posting over any dislike of Revel speakers and I'm not saying the new line isn't better. I believe Revel felt the pressure from other speaker companies offering comparable speakers (to the Performa2) for less money, I didn't say better just comparable. I think their products are amazing or I wouldn't have bought them biggrin.gif

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Thumbs up!
post #3736 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post


Do you want random selections of trained people or just random selections of non-audiophiles..

Actually I was thinking of selecting only audiophiles like members from AVS and Audioholics, but just not trained by Harman.
post #3737 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Well, HTM got +0.94/–0.82 dB Listening Window, but S&V got +/-2.9dB FR on the Absolute Zero.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-nht-absolute-51t-speaker-system?page=0,3

So it depends on who's measuring what on which day, etc. biggrin.gif

But the Klipsch KL-650-THX got +/-1.0 dB from TWO Independent 3rd parties!

That's more impressive to me.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/satellite/klipsch-thx-ultra2/page-5

http://www.hometheater.com/content/klipsch-thx-ultra2-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

Here's the thing. Harman is huge on FR measurements. It's their research that speakers with flatter FR & smoother off-axis will have better sound.

So if we throw measurements out the window, then all we have is some people liking speaker A and some people liking speaker B just because they were either trained to or because they just felt like it.

But did S&V also measure the Revels in question? I only compare apples to apples measurements.
post #3738 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Actually I was thinking of selecting only audiophiles like members from AVS and Audioholics, but just not trained by Harman.

Sign us up!!!! Factory tour? BTW, I may be completely wrong about the listeners being only trained listeners. I once again defer to the podcast smile.gif
post #3739 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Crickets......

Well I wasn't exactly expecting anybody to jump right on it. cool.gif
post #3740 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

But did S&V also measure the Revels in question? I only compare apples to apples measurements.

My point is, it could still be apples to oranges even if all from the same source (HTM, SV, etc).

I'm not so sure HTM & S&V (or any single source) are ALWAYS consistent.

I'm saying it's probably best (if available) to have 2 or more independent 3rd parties confirm very similar results.

For example, S&V has the Salon2 ~ +/-1dB, while both NRC & Stereophile have the Salon2 @ ~ +/-2dB.

Both Stereophile & NRC have the KEF 201/2 @ ~ +/-1dB.

Both Audioholics & HTM have the Klipsch KL650-THX Ultra2 @ +/-1dB.
post #3741 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

What does listening window response mean?

A five-point average of on-axis and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical off-axis responses from 200Hz-10kHz.
post #3742 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by denydog View Post

I've tried it. From my brief exposure to the Harmon listener training, I think one of the primary purposes is to develop a common frame of reference and communication between the listeners and the Harmon proffesionals. I got the impression that the Harmon engineers are looking for more than "I like speaker A" type of responses from the listeners. The listener training should allow higher quality feedback on why one speaker is prefered over another.

I was doing OK with the training, on the band-id levels, until it got to be too much for my very limited pc speakers. I have to try the training on the main system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

Questioning Revels' double blind test and training to be better listeners, why? Because AVKV wanted to put the question on Performa2 vs Performa3 to rest?

Personally, I don't think Harman's testing is faulty or designed to get the pre-determined answer they seek, like yes, the Performa3s are better than the Performa2s or whatever.
Like denydog posted, the training is designed to develop a common frame of reference and communication of characteristics in a consistent manner, basically a dictionary for describing what they are hearing.
Also what characteristics to listen for and focus on. I've done this kind of listening and it can be very fatiguing as I am doing my best to quantify what I am hearing.
I'm not so sure I'd want experienced "audiophiles" in my test pool. Too many potential biases and baggage that could skew the results.
It's like having an engineer on a jury.
Think about some of the posts you read on AVS and other forums with opinions about gear, it's all over the place.
Like I posted earlier, there's a difference maybe not in the end results of the testing as to what characteristics are superior from one speaker to another but with a buying consumer on a budget, the cost equation can't be ignored.
The people taking part in Harman's testing aren't there to decide which speaker they're going to purchase just the characteristics of A\B\C etc.
So yes, the Galaxy 500 is a superior speaker in these aspects to the OmniCron MK I but I have to pay multiples in price to get it and the OmniCron sounds pretty damn good already.

What AVKV and the test engineers are doing is improving a product in everyway they can that can be quantified by humans.
IMO, measurements are essential and can point out various characteristics but there are characteristics that are not revealed by measurements alone.
If measurements revealed all aspects of a given piece of gear, we wouldn't be here because we could look up the spec's for a given price range etc., compare feature set, pick the one that looked best and that would be it.
Sayonara reviews, forums and everything else they would die for lack of usefulness.
post #3743 of 6882
ADTG, you've got a bunch of speakers. Say that you wanted to replace a pair that was in your living room with another pair. Would you put the new pair in exactly the same location as the old ones used to be?
post #3744 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post


Personally, I don't think Harman's testing is faulty or designed to get the pre-determined answer they seek, like yes, the Performa3s are better than the Performa2s or whatever.
Like denydog posted, the training is designed to develop a common frame of reference and communication of characteristics in a consistent manner, basically a dictionary for describing what they are hearing.
Also what characteristics to listen for and focus on. I've done this kind of listening and it can be very fatiguing as I am doing my best to quantify what I am hearing.
I'm not so sure I'd want experienced "audiophiles" in my test pool. Too many potential biases and baggage that could skew the results.
It's like having an engineer on a jury.
Think about some of the posts you read on AVS and other forums with opinions about gear, it's all over the place.
Like I posted earlier, there's a difference maybe not in the end results of the testing as to what characteristics are superior from one speaker to another but with a buying consumer on a budget, the cost equation can't be ignored.
The people taking part in Harman's testing aren't there to decide which speaker they're going to purchase just the characteristics of A\B\C etc.
So yes, the Galaxy 500 is a superior speaker in these aspects to the OmniCron MK I but I have to pay multiples in price to get it and the OmniCron sounds pretty damn good already.

What AVKV and the test engineers are doing is improving a product in everyway they can that can be quantified by humans.
IMO, measurements are essential and can point out various characteristics but there are characteristics that are not revealed by measurements alone.
If measurements revealed all aspects of a given piece of gear, we wouldn't be here because we could look up the spec's for a given price range etc., compare feature set, pick the one that looked best and that would be it.
Sayonara reviews, forums and everything else they would die for lack of usefulness.



Very good points also smile.gif
post #3745 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

ADTG, you've got a bunch of speakers. Say that you wanted to replace a pair that was in your living room with another pair. Would you put the new pair in exactly the same location as the old ones used to be?

Wait, is this a trick question ? eek.gif

Yes.... (thinking) ..... I ...... (still thinking) ........ would.... assuming they are similar sizes. biggrin.gif
post #3746 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Actually I was thinking of selecting only audiophiles like members from AVS and Audioholics, but just not trained by Harman.
How about only Bose owners?
post #3747 of 6882
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

When we do DBT in the medical field, we don't just hand pick only patients that might respond best to the drugs. We do randomized selections w/ certain limitations (contraindications).

I see cherry-picking only Harman trained listeners as a negative thing, not a positive thing since Harman trained listeners are not representative of most audiophiles.

Well, of course Medical DBT is different from DBT that you would see an audio company do. For one thing the budget is much higher and there is a lot more money at stake. And the science behind it is far more developed, and there are government standards for the whole process. Finally, at the end, you are looking at review by a very persnickety independent board that might just come out and say no, you can't sell that product.

One of the main things Harman is trying to get out of it's DBT trials is how to correlate measurable parameters with subjective impressions of the sound so as to know what's worth spending money on in a speaker design and what isn't.

Most of the time with medical stuff you don't have that issue. You measure the A1G or whatever and that's your result. Plug it into SAS and look at the result.

With some random collection of untrained audiophiles you are going to get all sorts of different language describing the sound. It's got PRAT, or I though it was more rounded than the other one. Or I thought this one sounded fatter. It's not going to be possible unless you can whittle things down a bit. Harman's approach to that is training.
post #3748 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Wait, is this a trick question ? eek.gif

Yes.... (thinking) ..... I ...... (still thinking) ........ would.... assuming they are similar sizes. biggrin.gif
So, the best spot for one set of speakers is the same for just about any speaker. Doesn't matter if one is front firing while the other is a dipole. Doesn't matter if the FR of the two is different like say one goes to 30 while the other goes to 60Hz. Is that about right?
post #3749 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

So, the best spot for one set of speakers is the same for just about any speaker. Doesn't matter if one is front firing while the other is a dipole. Doesn't matter if the FR of the two is different like say one goes to 30 while the other goes to 60Hz. Is that about right?

Yes - as long as the sound is non-fatiguing & crystal clear and the soundstage is vast & convincing, I am happy.
post #3750 of 6882
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

How about only Bose owners?

Let me think for a sec ................. No. biggrin.gif
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