or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Revel Owners Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Revel Owners Thread - Page 126

post #3751 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

How about only Bose owners?
I get where you're coming from, but any test pool isn't going to be made up of one demographic.
Actually they might be just the kind of subject you'd want in the mix.
Casually interested in music and sound quality.
Willing to spend a fair amount to get it but not heavily invested in any one facet, dogma etc.
It would be interesting I think.

BTW, the latest round of Emotiva XPA-1Ls shipped yesterday.
Mine are due Wednesday.(firmly grasps rosary beads)
post #3752 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

My point is, it could still be apples to oranges even if all from the same source (HTM, SV, etc).

I'm not so sure HTM & S&V (or any single source) are ALWAYS consistent.

I'm saying it's probably best (if available) to have 2 or more independent 3rd parties confirm very similar results.

For example, S&V has the Salon2 ~ +/-1dB, while both NRC & Stereophile have the Salon2 @ ~ +/-2dB.

Both Stereophile & NRC have the KEF 201/2 @ ~ +/-1dB.

Both Audioholics & HTM have the Klipsch KL650-THX Ultra2 @ +/-1dB.

You're right and they are not. The measurements they take are normally not an an anechoic environment. So without the consistency of room, positioning, acoustics, and equipment, you can't expect a pure "apples to apples" result.
post #3753 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

So, the best spot for one set of speakers is the same for just about any speaker. Doesn't matter if one is front firing while the other is a dipole. Doesn't matter if the FR of the two is different like say one goes to 30 while the other goes to 60Hz. Is that about right?

No, it's not. It will depend on a variety of factors. For example, you have full range vs. monitors and then the various speaker technologies as you mention. Setting up full range is a bit different than monitors because you have a whole set of frequencies you'll need to deal with... you may have reinforcement, cancellation, or other oddities based purely on placement. As a general rule, you can surmise that the general place that is ideal for one speaker is probably a good place for another. However, if you're trying to setup Magnepans vs. Revels vs. Martin Logans, you are dealing with very different technologies--Martin Logans have a much narrower disbursement of sound (about 30 degrees) vs the maggies or the Revels. With the Maggies, you also have the dipole phenomenon so you ideally want to put it into the room more. Speaker placement is as much an art as it is a science. There are general rules but you still need to let your ears and your instrumentation be your guide.
post #3754 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

I get where you're coming from, but any test pool isn't going to be made up of one demographic.
Actually they might be just the kind of subject you'd want in the mix.
Casually interested in music and sound quality.
Willing to spend a fair amount to get it but not heavily invested in any one facet, dogma etc.
It would be interesting I think.

BTW, the latest round of Emotiva XPA-1Ls shipped yesterday.
Mine are due Wednesday.(firmly grasps rosary beads)



I bet you can't wait for the XPA to arrive. Christmas on the first day of May biggrin.gif
post #3755 of 6806
Hi everyone,

I just one to get back to you with my experience with the Focal Electras (1008 Be) . Yesterday I received them, and first of all, let me tell you, they look really nice. Beautiful finish, sleek design but I don't want them as a furniture, so lets get to the SOUND!

It's really hard, when I first installed them, I instantly heard they are different, than the Revels. The Beryllium tweeters are fantastic, the highs are clear, and fast.

I really wanted to like these speakers, but honestly, I cant really. I mean, they sound beautiful, but if I have to describe them, I would say "analitic", yes they reproduce every bit of sound and notes perfectly, obviously it has a better soundstage, and cleaner highs.

But What I'm missing is, is the Revel lust, to "revel" in the sound, to smile when I'm hearing some notes, when I just start to giggle... And no matter how much I try, these speakers don't do this for me.

They are fairly new (20-40 hours in them) and Focal states, they need a week to break-in, but honestly, I don't think they will change their characteristics...

Keep in mind, I recalibrated my Parasound Pre with an SPL meter, tried different locations, etc, but just no.
The fun fact is, that these speakers cost 3 times more as a standmount, than my F12 floorstanders, and I'm always thinking, "hmm, I think these tracks would also sound better on my Revels"

I'm so happy, that I was able to get the in-home demo, because, if I have listened to them in a demo room, I could have said, the room / my mood / the amplifier / the source etc. is different, but here, everything is the same.

I think I can't have anything else, but Revels in the future. smile.gif I'm looking forward to get a Performa 3 demo, and If I get just one giggle from it, I will get them. biggrin.gif

You know, this is what you were talking about in the past few days, I honestly think, that these Focals measure exceptionally well, but it doesn't matter, if I'm not enjoying them as much...
post #3756 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

No, it's not. It will depend on a variety of factors. For example, you have full range vs. monitors and then the various speaker technologies as you mention. Setting up full range is a bit different than monitors because you have a whole set of frequencies you'll need to deal with... you may have reinforcement, cancellation, or other oddities based purely on placement. As a general rule, you can surmise that the general place that is ideal for one speaker is probably a good place for another. However, if you're trying to setup Magnepans vs. Revels vs. Martin Logans, you are dealing with very different technologies--Martin Logans have a much narrower disbursement of sound (about 30 degrees) vs the maggies or the Revels. With the Maggies, you also have the dipole phenomenon so you ideally want to put it into the room more. Speaker placement is as much an art as it is a science. There are general rules but you still need to let your ears and your instrumentation be your guide.
Well, isn't that what Harman is doing with their blind tests? They're using a rapid switch turntable mechanism where each speaker is rotated into the exact same location. Nothing else is changed. It doesn't matter if the other speaker would be better located elsewhere or would benefit from particular room treatment. Harman is going to stick it in the same location as their speaker. And I would hazard to say that the location chosen, just happens to be the one where speakers that are designed to Harman's criteria just happen to sound their best in Harman's specially designed and treated room.

Now, it may be the results would ramain the same if a representative from the other company decided on the optimum placement for his speaker. Don't know. It might be in a 5.1 setup that the results would be the same. Don't know. Maybe Harman's results are only applicable to strict 2-channel configurations. Don't know.

Me, I'd like to see a bit more information from Harman regarding the limitations.
post #3757 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gugu_s View Post

Hi everyone,

I just one to get back to you with my experience with the Focal Electras (1008 Be) . Yesterday I received them, and first of all, let me tell you, they look really nice. Beautiful finish, sleek design but I don't want them as a furniture, so lets get to the SOUND!

It's really hard, when I first installed them, I instantly heard they are different, than the Revels. The Beryllium tweeters are fantastic, the highs are clear, and fast.

I really wanted to like these speakers, but honestly, I cant really. I mean, they sound beautiful, but if I have to describe them, I would say "analitic", yes they reproduce every bit of sound and notes perfectly, obviously it has a better soundstage, and cleaner highs.

But What I'm missing is, is the Revel lust, to "revel" in the sound, to smile when I'm hearing some notes, when I just start to giggle... And no matter how much I try, these speakers don't do this for me.

They are fairly new (20-40 hours in them) and Focal states, they need a week to break-in, but honestly, I don't think they will change their characteristics...

Keep in mind, I recalibrated my Parasound Pre with an SPL meter, tried different locations, etc, but just no.
The fun fact is, that these speakers cost 3 times more as a standmount, than my F12 floorstanders, and I'm always thinking, "hmm, I think these tracks would also sound better on my Revels"

I'm so happy, that I was able to get the in-home demo, because, if I have listened to them in a demo room, I could have said, the room / my mood / the amplifier / the source etc. is different, but here, everything is the same.

I think I can't have anything else, but Revels in the future. smile.gif I'm looking forward to get a Performa 3 demo, and If I get just one giggle from it, I will get them. biggrin.gif

You know, this is what you were talking about in the past few days, I honestly think, that these Focals measure exceptionally well, but it doesn't matter, if I'm not enjoying them as much...



That's a really good post thanks smile.gif I think I know what you mean about getting used to the Revel sound and even though I have a JBL center I think the characteristics of it is very close to the Revel. So yeah I think a lot of us are hooked on the Revel sound, and it's going to be hard to change. Best of luck when you demo the Performa3's and I think you'll be keeping them biggrin.gif
post #3758 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Well, isn't that what Harman is doing with their blind tests? They're using a rapid switch turntable mechanism where each speaker is rotated into the exact same location. Nothing else is changed. It doesn't matter if the other speaker would be better located elsewhere or would benefit from particular room treatment. Harman is going to stick it in the same location as their speaker. And I would hazard to say that the location chosen, just happens to be the one where speakers that are designed to Harman's criteria just happen to sound their best in Harman's specially designed and treated room.

Now, it may be the results would ramain the same if a representative from the other company decided on the optimum placement for his speaker. Don't know. It might be in a 5.1 setup that the results would be the same. Don't know. Maybe Harman's results are only applicable to strict 2-channel configurations. Don't know.

Me, I'd like to see a bit more information from Harman regarding the limitations.



My posts were never meant to pick apart their process, they are obviously doing something right because it looks like for 3 1/2 and 5 grand the 206/208's could sound better than some speakers worth much more.
Edited by comfynumb - 4/26/13 at 3:25pm
post #3759 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

I get where you're coming from, but any test pool isn't going to be made up of one demographic.[/I]
Actually totally facetious. To go from Bose to Revel....
post #3760 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Well, isn't that what Harman is doing with their blind tests? They're using a rapid switch turntable mechanism where each speaker is rotated into the exact same location. Nothing else is changed. It doesn't matter if the other speaker would be better located elsewhere or would benefit from particular room treatment. Harman is going to stick it in the same location as their speaker. And I would hazard to say that the location chosen, just happens to be the one where speakers that are designed to Harman's criteria just happen to sound their best in Harman's specially designed and treated room.

Now, it may be the results would ramain the same if a representative from the other company decided on the optimum placement for his speaker. Don't know. It might be in a 5.1 setup that the results would be the same. Don't know. Maybe Harman's results are only applicable to strict 2-channel configurations. Don't know.

Me, I'd like to see a bit more information from Harman regarding the limitations.

My recollection is that these tests are in mono, meaning single speaker. Too many variables when you try and do stereo setup. Using a single speaker shows the strengths and weaknesses better. But again, I haven't visited the facility. Visit Dr. Oliver's blog and ask him. He's a great guy and will be able to fill you in on all the science. If you really want to get geeky then pickup Floyd Toole's book. It's the standard in acoustics and psychoacoustics.
post #3761 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

My recollection is that these tests are in mono, meaning single speaker. Too many variables when you try and do stereo setup. Using a single speaker shows the strengths and weaknesses better. But again, I haven't visited the facility. Visit Dr. Oliver's blog and ask him. He's a great guy and will be able to fill you in on all the science. If you really want to get geeky then pickup Floyd Toole's book. It's the standard in acoustics and psychoacoustics.
Yes, it's one speaker. My point is if trained listers can no longer reliably tell speakers apart when we move to full multichannel (at least WRT that listening training) then that suggests that there may be other factors that become more important, don't you think?

Remember the Coke/Pepsi taste test? A test has to be representative of how people use the product. For example, didn't Harman say 18 year olds prefer better sounding music. Do you think most kids that age listen to music the way Harman tested them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

My posts were never meant to pick apart their process, they are obviously doing something right because it looks like for 3 1/2 and 5 grand the 206/208's could sound better than some speakers worth much more.
Which may also mean there are speakers tha cost 1/2 as much that sound better too, right? That phrase, 'some speakers', contains a myriad of possibilities and it cuts both ways.
post #3762 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Yes, it's one speaker. My point is if trained listers can no longer reliably tell speakers apart when we move to full multichannel (at least WRT that listening training) then that suggests that there may be other factors that become more important, don't you think?

Remember the Coke/Pepsi taste test? A test has to be representative of how people use the product. For example, didn't Harman say 18 year olds prefer better sounding music. Do you think most kids that age listen to music the way Harman tested them?
Which may also mean there are speakers tha cost 1/2 as much that sound better too, right? That phrase, 'some speakers', contains a myriad of possibilities and it cuts both ways.

I'm absolutely a firm believer in the way they do their testing. No better compliment than being a customer! biggrin.gif

And I do indeed believe that you can tell the speakers apart! The issue arises with all the great stuff we audiophiles obsess about. Tonality, coloration, etc. I started doing the listening training some time ago. Never finished it, but its absolutely fascinating how it helps you pinpoint stuff. So you just don't say this sounds better or worse than that but you can say confidently that the upper midrange sounds XYZ. That's the point of the program--to help you articulate the differences you perceive.

I'd strongly suggest those interested download the free software and take some tutorials. See how far you can get in accurately identifying errors! biggrin.gif. It's a very cool process.
post #3763 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

Actually totally facetious. To go from Bose to Revel....
I know.
post #3764 of 6806
Isdec,

I assure you; I don't embellish. We brought-in speakers well-above the $20,000 price range and the F208 was superior all-around. The competitive speakers you mentioned are just used to demonstrate our position-independent speaker test facility.

Happy Listening,
Kevin
post #3765 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by avkv View Post

Isdec,

I assure you; I don't embellish. We brought-in speakers well-above the $20,000 price range and the F208 was superior all-around. The competitive speakers you mentioned are just used to demonstrate our position-independent speaker test facility.

Happy Listening,
Kevin
Hi Kevin,

Those of us who actually have the speakers know you arent embellishing. I think "lsdec" was being sarcastic (in front of the "internet expert audience"). His dealer told him on the side the name of a speaker that was in the double blind listening test. He was merely pointing out that the MSRP you pointed out wasnt the MSRP of the competitors speaker his dealer said was in the test. wink.gif I have no doubt, Kevin, that there were speakers with higher MSRPs than the ones we were told were in the test. Obviously, for various reasons, we know you cannot truly comment/confirm on this matter.

As a Revel owner (2x now), I'd like to apologize you've had to endure the last few pages of what has become a juvenile thread...with a bunch of "internet experts" who read specs, and comment on your design choices as if they were part of Harman/Revel when they have no clue, and then spew FUD on the internet in the name of "science". That being said, I hope you stick around as it is a rare opportunity to interact with and know that "the man" behind the magic is at minimum reading what REAL F208 owners are experiencing.

Thanks,
Mr. Smug (<---this is what they call real F208 owners on this thread smile.gif )
post #3766 of 6806
Yes. I was being sarcastic.

As I have stated, I heard the studio2 few years ago during a dealer promo and I couldn't believe how amazing it was.

Then this past January I heard the f208 and the studio2 side by side. My conclusion is what you already know AVKV.. I don't have to convince you. smile.gif

Based on the Msrp of the studio2, I basically feel I have $15,000 speakers. My problem now is I'm losing my 6 pack abs bc I'm sitting so much listening to music.

Happy designing!
post #3767 of 6806
Interesting discussion. I would be inclined to agree with Harman's "trained listener" approach over a purely random sample of listeners....or even a random sample of audiophiles.

I view what their training is doing as being analogous to calibrating test or measuring equipment. Without it, you are prone to get meaningless results because your "measuring devices" don't know what they are measuring.

The other need for doing that is you can eliminate or at least minimize the effects of listeners reporting a negative aspect of performance as something they perceive as positive...for example, elevated mid bass response.
post #3768 of 6806
Hold on guys for a moment!

Anybody claiming, or thinking that Harman tries to influence the results of the tests, completely misunderstood the concept why Harman built this whole testing facility.

They don't want to trick you, and definitely they don't want to trick themself into thinking when their prototype Performa3 wasn't as good as they wanted it to be, that it is already good, and beats XY speaker. They never publish the results, nor are they advertising with the exact results, they just build one of the most likeable speakers, the ones you are going to buy, once you hear them.

Once they would start to do tricks like positioning, cherry-picking trained listeners, etc. they would fool themself, and produce worse speakers, which we wouldn't buy. So they are doing their best, when they are making sure that no biasing/coloration enter these tests, because in this case, they can produce speakers which are much better than more expensive ones.

And obviously, it's not the room, or the speaker moving mechanism, which is the key, any manufacturer would be able to build one like this. the knowledge, the experience from the past 15 years, all the protocols/methods which they engineered, all the corrections in the system/procedures which they improved during their process is the biggest value, and no other (or at least not many) speaker manufacturer can do the same, without spending the same amount of time / money / researching into this matter.

Thats my opinion.
post #3769 of 6806
Personally I don't need anyone apologizing for things I posted and I don't give a $hit what someone thinks is juvenile. If the builder of my newly purchased speakers posts that his new line of speakers for $2,000 and $3,500 less retail price bests mine in every way I would like to know in what way and how they were compared. I never said that they weren't a better sounding speaker but I don't like drive by statements. Elaborate please because I just might buy them.



#3686 of 3769
2 days ago
avkv
Comfynumb,

I acknowledge that we have failed to make it known that the Revel policy is to bring in competitors for each of our models during development, based on a similar price range and recommendations from our dealers, distributors and press reviews. We compare them in the world's only position-independent, double-blind listening facility. We do not approve production until we have proven our superiority, not just in our extensive objective measurements, but also in carefully conducted listening tests. The "competitors" always include our previous models. The F208 handily outperforms the F52 in these tests. In fact, the F206 outperforms the F52 in every way except ultimate LF extension and absolute output capability. The difference in LF extension would not likely be noticed outside of such a sensitive test. (The speakers currently playing are moved into the same position in a matter of a few seconds.) Our testing process not only removes extraneous "nuisance variables" like position-dependence and sighted listening, but importantly, it brings the differences into sharp relief. Our engineering team can't resist putting more-expensive speakers in these tests, and in fact, the F208 beat speakers over $25,000/pair in these controlled listening tests.

Happy listening!

Kevin




Now you tell me your royal smugness, why was I singled out and posted to personally?
Edited by comfynumb - 4/27/13 at 4:51am
post #3770 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

It still comes down to preference. Some people liked the sound of the F32 over the 52's. But yeah I would go as high up the ladder as your wallet allows.

I don't want Mr. Smug to strike again comfynumb so I'll answer. smile.gif Probably because of this post. ^^^^ I recalled you saying something about it being personal preference. AVKV probably wanted to just clear the air - nothing personal.

Also, maybe Revel is having issues with MSRPs. People automatically associate higher price with better. Another way to view it is Revel took production off-shore and is passing the saving to us and so they can sell more. Similar to you Comfynumb, if the F208 was $7000, I would not have bought it. But I'm still mad that Revel cancelled the F308...20hz at $6k price point - would have been a killer - AVKV probably got overruled by the marketing folks at Revel bc they were afraid it would cannibalized Salon2.

AVKV, if you have a F308 prototype, I'd be glad to swap it w/ my F208 - just pm me. cool.gif

Happy Designing,

Anti-smug :-)
post #3771 of 6806
I appreciate your peace making attempt lsdec. I have a different theory on why I was singled out, and I believe it was for trying to steer a person or two towards the 52's that might still be available. I'm a businessman and I can appreciate advertising, but do it generally and don't address someone personally that just bought one of your products new through an authorized dealer. Why not say Revel owners: here are the Performa2 measurements and here are the Performa3 measurements, and in our listening tests they were preferred over the old line?
Edited by comfynumb - 4/27/13 at 7:42am
post #3772 of 6806
the first letter is an L. LSDEC :-)

I'd go after the guy who sold you the F52s. Dealers have a responsibilities to be truthful - did the guy steer you wrong?

Unfortunately, you probably didn't get the side by side F208 vs Studio2. If every Revel dealer has this demo, they will sell more F208s then they can make.

And most guys who would have bought the studio2 still would buy that, but the guys who are shopping Revels vs. MA's & Kef's etc..at the 3k-5k price point - what's more convincing to showcase how close the quality is compared to the flagship? It turns the thinking that 3k-5k is A LOT of money for speakers to WOW, what a bargain!

True high-end sound for 1/3rd the cost - pretty good proposition.
Edited by lsdec - 4/27/13 at 7:50am
post #3773 of 6806
I corrected my above post smile.gif lsdec I'm not implying I'm unhappy at all in fact it's the exact opposite, I couldn't be happier with the 52's and I wouldn't trade them. I'm the one that pursued them and the dealer just offered me a great price. I knew right from the get go the new line was out or about to come out and didn't care. Because of the reviews for the last x amount of years I wanted them. This is getting out of hand and people are taking what I've been posting the wrong way. Listen I don't care if someone's speakers or other gear sound better than mine, I'm not that kind of person. All I did was recommend a couple of things and question the testing procedure. Not in any way did I say the new line was inferior to the old line. When a model is replaced you expect the new model to be better, and that is true with any product.
post #3774 of 6806
Very good - it's all about being happy w/ your stuff. Dude, when I had the DefTech BP10s as my mains 3 months ago I literally stopped listening to music. I hate that bi-polar sound for music, it's fine for movies though.

You could have ended up with the F50s...I'm glad you got your F52s. If you want to blame anyone, blame AccuDefTechguy :-) I'm singling him out ... LOL
post #3775 of 6806
I've never heard any of the def tech speakers, except the subs.
post #3776 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I've never heard any of the def tech speakers, except the subs.

You aren't missing anything :-)
post #3777 of 6806
Fellas, boys.
C'mon we're all friends here.

BTW, I own registered the trademark on "Mr. Smug®"
I hope people know I was just good-naturedly yanking some chains
I'd probably be pretty smug as well if I had a pair, in fact I'd probably own 3 of them and have'em in my HT\Music room.
But I'll just have to muddle along with my old dog-eared soon-to-be-has-beens when the all-beryllium Ultima 9000Be's are released.
post #3778 of 6806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Fellas, boys.
C'mon we're all friends here.

BTW, I own registered the trademark on "Mr. Smug®"
I hope people know I was just good-naturedly yanking some chains
I'd probably be pretty smug as well if I had a pair, in fact I'd probably own 3 of them and have'em in my HT\Music room.
But I'll just have to muddle along with my old dog-eared soon-to-be-has-beens when the all-beryllium Ultima 9000Be's are released.



I've never heard beryllium tweeters before, but understand they make a big difference.
post #3779 of 6806
Saw some speakers the other day can't remember the brand but they had Be tweeter and mid-range. $$$$$$$$$$
post #3780 of 6806
I've heard some really nice beryllium dome tweeters, but I've heard very nice tweeters made of all kinds of stuff.. I hear the high dome breakup frequency is a plus for beryllium. Which reminds me;

Anybody else read the Wharfedale Jade 7 review in the latest Stereophile mag? They gave it a very positive review, though they noted that younger listeners with good ears may be able to hear the tweeter dome breakup, which seems to start below 20 kHz. The Jade 7's similar size, spec's, and an msrp of $4,199 makes it natural competition to the Revel F208. It is a 4-way design. It would be interesting to hear it.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Revel Owners Thread