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Revel Owners Thread - Page 151

post #4501 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwally View Post

I love McIntosh gear as well. My first "real" stereo preamp was a Mac for which I threw thousands of newspapers for in the 1970s. I paired it with an SAE amplifier, if anyone remembers those. S.A.E.'s Morris Kessler went on with ATI, Outlaw, and the late, great James Bongiorno went on with G.A.S.

Adding to what you said, it's important to note that not one person in the history of the planet has ever been able to identify one SS amplifier operating within design spec and not oscillating (I'm looking at you, Naim) from another in a controlled blind comparison. The first account I saw was Tom Nousaine vs. the late Steve Zipser of Sunshine Stereo, where Zipser lost after failing to differentiate a pair of Nelson Pass monoblocks against a cheap Yamaha integrated amp. That must have been twenty years ago. Since then, many DBT solid state amplifier challenges have popped up with anywhere from $1000 to $10,000 as the bounty, and no one has has collected.

In the mean time, nobody has had much of a problem identifying differences between various loudspeakers (and phono cartridges) in blind testing. Draw your own conclusions, but expect a challenge when suggesting an expensive change of front end gear when the room is most likely problem, and the fix is cheap.

All this is why I said the original suggestion was funny. I saved enough on my amp to buy cable lifters and expensive power cords. smile.gif
post #4502 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

I compared them to the M22 yesterday. After the above post I went to the dealer and bought them (F32).

Have been listening to them for about 30 minutes.

I listened to the C12 and C52. Not a fair listen as they were in different rooms. Still it was easy to tell that the C52 is superior. The C12 was toooooo warm. Almost like it was veiled in comparison. Only a few C52's left. I have a long term relationship with the owner. Sort of a like/dislike relationship. He said he would call me before selling the last one since I would like to sell a few items before buying the C52. My house looks like an electronics store.

Anyway, looks like I am a member of the Revel club.



I know you got a good deal on them congrats! I may get flamed for this but I've heard expensive and inexpensive center channel speakers and everyone expects them to sound as good as their fronts, but they don't. They are made for movie dialogue and all sound funky with music playing through them. I'd say go with what you can afford or look for your 32's mate used. Paying 2 or 3 grand for a speaker that doesn't sound that great is crazy to me. I was short on cash when I bought my 52's and wasn't paying a couple grand for the match.
post #4503 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I know you got a good deal on them congrats! I may get flamed for this but I've heard expensive and inexpensive center channel speakers and everyone expects them to sound as good as their fronts, but they don't. They are made for movie dialogue and all sound funky with music playing through them. I'd say go with what you can afford or look for your 32's mate used. Paying 2 or 3 grand for a speaker that doesn't sound that great is crazy to me. I was short on cash when I bought my 52's and wasn't paying a couple grand for the match.

Thanks comfy.

I have to disagree with you (sort of) on the center not sounding good for music. I have always had centers that were = to the mains or dang close. I have owned so many brands I can't begin to list them. I own three pairs of Klipsch KG series speakers. KG2, KG4, and KG5.2. I alternate them in another system. I also have a KV series center ( I think without looking). I have compared a KG2 as center with the KG4's as opposed to the KV. I notice no improvement.

I replaced JBL HT4V's with the F32 and am currently using a JBL HT4H as center with the F32's. It is surprising how well they blend. Of course I have not done any critical listening.

After about 300 hours of break in I will know how the F32's really should sound. biggrin.gif
post #4504 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Thanks comfy
I have to disagree with you (sort of) on the center not sounding good for music. I have always had centers that were = to the mains or dang close. I have owned so many brands I can't begin to list them. I own three pairs of Klipsch KG series speakers. KG2, KG4, and KG5.2. I alternate them in another system. I also have a KV series center ( I think without looking). I have compared a KG2 as center with the KG4's as opposed to the KV. I notice no improvement.

I replaced JBL HT4V's with the F32 and am currently using a JBL HT4H as center with the F32's. It is surprising how well they blend. Of course I have not done any critical listening.

After about 300 hours of break in I will know how the F32's really should sound. biggrin.gif



Yes let us know what you think.
post #4505 of 6832
Did anyone notice anything odd about the fifth photo in his ad? biggrin.gif

Anyone looking for a pair should note that F208s can be had for less money brand new and Fedex'ed to your door.
post #4506 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post


After about 300 hours of break in I will know how the F32's really should sound. biggrin.gif

Hi MudCat,

You said before, that the F32 sounded better than the F206. Have you compared the two side byside, I mean it's pretty hard to believe, considering most of the people prefer even the F12 instead of the F32. Don't get me wrong, I just would like to hear your detailed opinion about this.
post #4507 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwally View Post

Did anyone notice anything odd about the fifth photo in his ad? biggrin.gif

Anyone looking for a pair should note that F208s can be had for less money brand new and Fedex'ed to your door.

Not without a huge discount from the dealer and normally they don't ship for free. There is also a make offer button. Also yes the reflection in the speaker was kinda the point. Also I started their own sale rather than group sale. So deleted the first ad
Edited by harri009 - 7/28/13 at 7:03am
post #4508 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

I compared them to the M22 yesterday. After the above post I went to the dealer and bought them (F32).

Have been listening to them for about 30 minutes.

I listened to the C12 and C52. Not a fair listen as they were in different rooms. Still it was easy to tell that the C52 is superior. The C12 was toooooo warm. Almost like it was veiled in comparison. Only a few C52's left. I have a long term relationship with the owner. Sort of a like/dislike relationship. He said he would call me before selling the last one since I would like to sell a few items before buying the C52. My house looks like an electronics store.

Anyway, looks like I am a member of the Revel club.

Congrats!

LOL about the "before the wife gets home" purchase. biggrin.gif

Utterly understandable. wink.gif

I think any Revel (new or "old") + some kick a$$ subs could make just about anyone happy. smile.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 7/28/13 at 7:19am
post #4509 of 6832
Hmm, sorry I missed whatever ad was posted.

Yes I remember S.A.E.(Scientific Audio Electronics, I think).
My older cousin had SAE gear driving a pair of Dahlquist DQ-10s.
AFAIK, he still has them. I think he had the drivers rebuilt as the surrounds can disintegrate after 20 years.

Anyway, Mudcat when you say the C52 is 3x the price of the C12, is it like $500 to $1500?
Just curious.
Sounds like you're not crazy about the C12 so even at 1/3 of whatever price it would be a waste.

In my experience, for soundtracks the CC has far more than just dialog.
For MCH music, it all depends on the mix.
Sometimes vocals are hard-panned to the CC with little else but in most cases there is a lot of musical info besides vocals in the CC.

AFAIK, the lobing issue with CCs relates more to 2-ways or CCs that are merely L\R speakers turned on their side.
The Revel C12 & C52 are purpose built for that role and while there may be some minor compromises, I doubt it is discernible without comparing to 3 identical speakers for L\C\R.
Maybe not even then with proper setup.
post #4510 of 6832
Yes there are a couple of posts missing that were here last night.
post #4511 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by harri009 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwally View Post

Did anyone notice anything odd about the fifth photo in his ad? biggrin.gif

Anyone looking for a pair should note that F208s can be had for less money brand new and Fedex'ed to your door.

Not without a huge discount from the dealer and normally they don't ship for free. There is also a make offer button. Also yes the reflection in the speaker was kinda the point. Also I started their own sale rather than group sale. So deleted the first ad

I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was your ad. I thought it was just one you spotted. The photo where you were reflected struck me as funny because there was a notorious eBay ad years ago that reflected the guy taking the picture, except he was naked!
post #4512 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gugu_s View Post

Hi MudCat,

You said before, that the F32 sounded better than the F206. Have you compared the two side byside, I mean it's pretty hard to believe, considering most of the people prefer even the F12 instead of the F32. Don't get me wrong, I just would like to hear your detailed opinion about this.

They were in different rooms. The 206's were connected to Mcintosh system and the 32's to Rotel. I did not spend a lot of time comparing because I do not think that side by side the 206 could be worth more than twice the cost.
I just thought the 32 had a larger sound without sacrificing mid and treble. Individual instruments and back up vocals were more pronounced and had better separation. The 206 had less depth and really clear upper mid and high. The differences were subtle and side by side may not be noticed. Maybe the price altered my hearing.smile.gif

I prefaced my original post by saying the F32 seemed to be an orphan. I do not understand why. I have auditioned the F12 several times and always wondered why I returned each time thinking I might buy them. My best description is that they are sort of bland. Please no flames. Sound is just so subjective and there is not right or wrong opinion as to what sounds best. I have yet to call a speaker the best I have heard. I would rather think that they just sound different.

Almost forgot. I have read old posts on other forums called the 32 bright. Sort of makes me wonder what they would call a bright speaker. OTH, They may have just owned something like Cerwin Vega.
post #4513 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Congrats!

LOL about the "before the wife gets home" purchase. biggrin.gif

Utterly understandable. wink.gif

I think any Revel (new or "old") + some kick a$$ subs could make just about anyone happy. smile.gif

I think there a lot of speakers that fall into this classification. I just happened to be in the Revel department on the right day.smile.gif

Wife has not arrived home. When she called me last night she said what did you buy today. I asked why and she said because I know you too well.
post #4514 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Anyway, Mudcat when you say the C52 is 3x the price of the C12, is it like $500 to $1500?
Just curious.
Sounds like you're not crazy about the C12 so even at 1/3 of whatever price it would be a waste.

In my experience, for soundtracks the CC has far more than just dialog.
For MCH music, it all depends on the mix.
Sometimes vocals are hard-panned to the CC with little else but in most cases there is a lot of musical info besides vocals in the CC.

AFAIK, the lobing issue with CCs relates more to 2-ways or CCs that are merely L\R speakers turned on their side.
The Revel C12 & C52 are purpose built for that role and while there may be some minor compromises, I doubt it is discernible without comparing to 3 identical speakers for L\C\R.
Maybe not even then with proper setup.

The pricing for each is less than you quoted. Your are right Milt. I really want the C52. Low price only constitutes a bargain if you like the product. I will be getting the C52 sooner than later.

BTW, pm your phone # to me. I will have my wife call you and you can explain all the reasons for me to buy the 52.biggrin.gif
post #4515 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

The pricing for each is less than you quoted. Your are right Milt. I really want the C52. Low price only constitutes a bargain if you like the product. I will be getting the C52 sooner than later.

BTW, pm your phone # to me. I will have my wife call you and you can explain all the reasons for me to buy the 52.biggrin.gif

I didn't mean to say the C12 would be a waste of money but more accurately that you wouldn't be happy with it.
Edited by Milt99 - 7/29/13 at 11:39am
post #4516 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

I didn't mean to say the C12 would be a waste of money but more accurately that you wouldn't be happy with it.

Better yet, I can PM my ex-wife's number to you and have her explain what NOT to do when stating your case for the F52. wink.gif

I understood what you meant. You are correct that it is best to buy what you really want. Finances permitting.

Let's call it quits on the wives. smile.gifsmile.gif
post #4517 of 6832
I think the C12 will be fine.
post #4518 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Thanks comfy.

I have to disagree with you (sort of) on the center not sounding good for music. I have always had centers that were = to the mains or dang close. I have owned so many brands I can't begin to list them. I own three pairs of Klipsch KG series speakers. KG2, KG4, and KG5.2. I alternate them in another system. I also have a KV series center ( I think without looking). I have compared a KG2 as center with the KG4's as opposed to the KV. I notice no improvement.

I replaced JBL HT4V's with the F32 and am currently using a JBL HT4H as center with the F32's. It is surprising how well they blend. Of course I have not done any critical listening.

After about 300 hours of break in I will know how the F32's really should sound. biggrin.gif


The midrange on the F32s are the same size as those on the JBL you have, which is a terrific speaker in its own right. Aesthetics aside, you may already have a winner, particularly if you cannot find a C32. An orphan M22 would also work great, if you could find one and place it (upright) effectively (it can be mounted flush). Regardless, for music or movies, a set of F32s with a musical sub (or two) is a great pick, and if you do not have the subs, you may wish to go there before a different center channel. Any of the C32, C52, or C12 (or the M22) would work great in the middle, ultimately, particularly if your preference is multichannel music listening. Not easy to find, but the JBL PC600 is an amazing center channel, which I found to blend well with M22s.
post #4519 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by howaboutthat41 View Post

The midrange on the F32s are the same size as those on the JBL you have, which is a terrific speaker in its own right. Aesthetics aside, you may already have a winner, particularly if you cannot find a C32. An orphan M22 would also work great, if you could find one and place it (upright) effectively (it can be mounted flush). Regardless, for music or movies, a set of F32s with a musical sub (or two) is a great pick, and if you do not have the subs, you may wish to go there before a different center channel. Any of the C32, C52, or C12 (or the M22) would work great in the middle, ultimately, particularly if your preference is multichannel music listening. Not easy to find, but the JBL PC600 is an amazing center channel, which I found to blend well with M22s.



+1
post #4520 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Congrats!

LOL about the "before the wife gets home" purchase. biggrin.gif

Utterly understandable. wink.gif

I think any Revel (new or "old") + some kick a$$ subs could make just about anyone happy. smile.gif

I think there a lot of speakers that fall into this classification. I just happened to be in the Revel department on the right day.smile.gif

Wife has not arrived home. When she called me last night she said what did you buy today. I asked why and she said because I know you too well.

Busted! biggrin.gif

Yeah, there are many good speakers out there for sure. You just have to pick the brand and aesthetic you prefer. wink.gif
post #4521 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by howaboutthat41 View Post

The midrange on the F32s are the same size as those on the JBL you have, which is a terrific speaker in its own right. Aesthetics aside, you may already have a winner, particularly if you cannot find a C32. An orphan M22 would also work great, if you could find one and place it (upright) effectively (it can be mounted flush). Regardless, for music or movies, a set of F32s with a musical sub (or two) is a great pick, and if you do not have the subs, you may wish to go there before a different center channel. Any of the C32, C52, or C12 (or the M22) would work great in the middle, ultimately, particularly if your preference is multichannel music listening. Not easy to find, but the JBL PC600 is an amazing center channel, which I found to blend well with M22s.

Thanks for the input. I have to agree that the JBL is terrific. I also have the HT4V's. I think the 4V's would be easier to sell if the 4H was in the package since they are basically the same. This should pay for 1/2 the C52 cost.

I have 2 subs. Revel B120 and SVS PC20-39+. I am currently using only the B120 because of the versatility in placement with it being wireless. I noticed an immediate improvement in bass quality with the F32's and the B120. The added bass of the 32's smoothed out the room response.
post #4522 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Busted! biggrin.gif

Yeah, there are many good speakers out there for sure. You just have to pick the brand and aesthetic you prefer. wink.gif

Speakers are like women. You sometimes have to decide if you want a pretty one to look at or an ugly one that is a better performer.smile.gifsmile.gif
post #4523 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Thanks for the input. I have to agree that the JBL is terrific. I also have the HT4V's. I think the 4V's would be easier to sell if the 4H was in the package since they are basically the same. This should pay for 1/2 the C52 cost.

I have 2 subs. Revel B120 and SVS PC20-39+. I am currently using only the B120 because of the versatility in placement with it being wireless. I noticed an immediate improvement in bass quality with the F32's and the B120. The added bass of the 32's smoothed out the room response.



Take a look at the JBL PC600 in my pics. howaboutthat41 turned me on to it after I bought my 52's. It was a year old in the original box, all the paperwork and mounting bracket that was still sealed in it's own box, for $445.00 delivered from a guy on eBay. To me I can't hear that it's not a perfect match and it shares it's 4" speaker with the Salon2. The black ash finish must have been cut from the same tree as my Revels because it matches perfect. Yes a Revel CC would be optimal but I was outta cash biggrin.gif
Edited by comfynumb - 8/9/13 at 5:02am
post #4524 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

All this is why I said the original suggestion was funny. I saved enough on my amp to buy cable lifters and expensive power cords. smile.gif

Unfortunately, I haven't seen a single peer-reviewed article refute the differences in performance and sound between amps. I've heard differences between amps when playing/pushing Revels.

Audioholics actually took the article mentioned in the post to task and they themselves heard differences between amps. http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/the-sound-of-an-amplifier

I love Audioholics, no BS and trying to look at the engineering data to reach a conclusion.

They haven't heard differences between cables, but they have with amps.

If there's no difference between amps then why didn't you buy a cheaper Crown amp or Radio Shack and really save more $$ for better, gold and titanium-plated carbonite and adamantium-infused cryo fuses since those kinds of fuses most certainly make such a bigger difference than speakers ;-).

I agree with the folks at Audioholics and I've heard differences myself.
post #4525 of 6832
No question. I had the Emotiva XPA-5 then upgraded to the XPR-5. The difference was noticeable. Better dynamics, smoother top end etc. it was clearly worth the upgrade for me.
post #4526 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

All this is why I said the original suggestion was funny. I saved enough on my amp to buy cable lifters and expensive power cords. smile.gif

Unfortunately, I haven't seen a single peer-reviewed article refute the differences in performance and sound between amps. I've heard differences between amps when playing/pushing Revels.

Audioholics actually took the article mentioned in the post to task and they themselves heard differences between amps. http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/the-sound-of-an-amplifier

I love Audioholics, no BS and trying to look at the engineering data to reach a conclusion.

They haven't heard differences between cables, but they have with amps.

If there's no difference between amps then why didn't you buy a cheaper Crown amp or Radio Shack and really save more $$ for better, gold and titanium-plated carbonite and adamantium-infused cryo fuses since those kinds of fuses most certainly make such a bigger difference than speakers ;-).

I agree with the folks at Audioholics and I've heard differences myself.

That article actually supports what I'm saying. The only time differences were heard was when one of the amps was clipping, noisy (poor s/n ratio), exhibited audible distortion, was poorly designed (like the Panasonic mentioned which had virtually no damping), had a poor spectral tilt, or is oscillating. That said, when two amplifiers of proper design and not being overdriven are compared, they have never been differentiated in blind testing.
Edited by bigwally - 7/29/13 at 3:11pm
post #4527 of 6832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

Unfortunately, I haven't seen a single peer-reviewed article refute the differences in performance and sound between amps. I've heard differences between amps when playing/pushing Revels.

What amps did you use for this?

Audioholics actually took the article mentioned in the post to task and they themselves heard differences between amps. http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/the-sound-of-an-amplifier

I love Audioholics, no BS and trying to look at the engineering data to reach a conclusion.

They haven't heard differences between cables, but they have with amps.

If there's no difference between amps then why didn't you buy a cheaper Crown amp or Radio Shack and really save more $$ for better, gold and titanium-plated carbonite and adamantium-infused cryo fuses since those kinds of fuses most certainly make such a bigger difference than speakers ;-).

Have you priced Crown amps. I would need 3 in a 5.1 system. The cost would be approximately 50% more than the XPA5. That requires 3 power receptacles. XPA requires 1. 3 Crowns require 3 on/off trigger out from AVR or pre-pro. Most do not have this. Some Crowns have fans that can produce noise. XPA has none. I have used the Crown XPS out of curiosity and heard no difference compared to the XPA.
Where can I find a 200 watt Radio Shack amp?
If you believe that fuses or amps sound more different than speakers and room acoustics I am not surprised at your comments.


I agree with the folks at Audioholics and I've heard differences myself.

Sounds like you are guilty of clipping your amps.
post #4528 of 6832
C'mon guys.
Are we really arguing about the same thing here?

Someone makes an off-hand comment about saving money by not chasing expensive amps and it becomes "an all amps sound the same" argument.

I didn't interpret Mudcat's post that way but I could be wrong but in any event this debate has been done countless times and seems to break out spontaneously for no apparent reason.
We all have our experiences and views on this and no one is going to change anyone's mind or "win" so why not drop it?

I'm not saying we can't state our views on the subject as I've done many times but for GodSakes if we have learned anything it's that these subjects go nowhere fast when the argument begins.

And BTW, Audioholics has stated their views on cables and they(Gene) likes Kimber 8TC if I remember correctly so they must be hearing some difference.
post #4529 of 6832
He might just like the way Kimber looks, like the way I like the blue lights on my Emotivas. smile.gif

I also have massive garden hose speaker cables which I find incredibly attractive and well built. There are a lot of reasons to like what we like, but I'm not going to tell someone their choice in speaker cables lacks warmth without expecting some raised eyebrows.
post #4530 of 6832
Every amp I have ever had that has blue LEDs sounds better than my amps without them. I rest my case tongue.gif

- Rich
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