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Revel Owners Thread - Page 168

post #5011 of 6783
Kevin Voecks shows of some Revel gear at CEDIA. I feel so bad for Kevin. He's trying to be polite each time the interviewer says "Salon 3" but in reality means the Performa3. Nice overview of the subs and the Revel speaker philosophy in general.


post #5012 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

Kevin Voecks shows of some Revel gear at CEDIA. I feel so bad for Kevin. He's trying to be polite each time the interviewer says "Salon 3" but in reality means the Performa3. Nice overview of the subs and the Revel speaker philosophy in general.





Nice, Scott Wilkinson from AVS also interviews Kevin at CEDIA a couple of days ago. He talks about the Revel subwoofers amongst other things.


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1492598/harman-luxury-audio-group-at-cedia-2013/0_80
Edited by comfynumb - 10/1/13 at 6:35am
post #5013 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Nice, Scott Wilkinson from AVS also interviews Kevin at CEDIA a couple of days ago. He talks about the Revel subwoofers amongst other things.


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1492598/harman-luxury-audio-group-at-cedia-2013/0_80

Anyone seen specs on the new subs? I can't find specifics. I only see about amp power but not how low they go. I checked out the Revel web site but don't see it on the specific products.

In general, the Revel web site isn't very good. That also goes with the 'standardization Harman did across all its properties.

I was really curious about the statement of the new subs outperforming the older B15s.
post #5014 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

Anyone seen specs on the new subs? I can't find specifics. I only see about amp power but not how low they go. I checked out the Revel web site but don't see it on the specific products.

In general, the Revel web site isn't very good. That also goes with the 'standardization Harman did across all its properties.

I was really curious about the statement of the new subs outperforming the older B15s.



One thing Kevin said was it has dual voice coils and separate 1,000 watt amps for each one eek.gif
Edited by comfynumb - 10/1/13 at 10:18am
post #5015 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

Anyone seen specs on the new subs? I can't find specifics. I only see about amp power but not how low they go. I checked out the Revel web site but don't see it on the specific products.

In general, the Revel web site isn't very good. That also goes with the 'standardization Harman did across all its properties.

I was really curious about the statement of the new subs outperforming the older B15s.

I am hoping Revel will send Audioholics the Rhythm2 for a full review & CEA measurement so that we can compare it to the other subs like Paradigm, Funk, JL, Velodyne, Rythmik, SVS, HSU, etc.

CEA Standard (THD <10%, 2 Meters) SPL @ 20/32/40/50/63 Hz:

$2200 JL Audio F112: 92.8/112.4/116.2/113.3/117.6
$9,000 Paradigm Sig Sub2: 106.4/109.9/113.2/116.9/120.2
$1022 Hsu VTF-15H: 103.9/113.0/115.7/115.7/115.6
$5,000 Velodyne DD18+: 103.4/113.0/115.8/116.8/115.3
$2,000 SVS PB13 Ultra: 110.6/113.5/115.5/117.5/117.8
$1,400 Rythmik FV15HP: 108.1/117.0/119.5/119.1/118.8
$1890 Funk 18C: 97.6/106.1/112.1/119.1/124.3
$2,500 Funk 18.0: 103.5/116/121.6/123.8/125.4

Revel Rhythm2 ?
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 10/1/13 at 12:40pm
post #5016 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I am hoping Revel will send Audioholics the Rhythm2 for a full review & CEA measurement so that we can compare it to the other subs like Paradigm, Funk, JL, Velodyne, Rythmik, SVS, HSU, etc.

CEA Standard (THD <10%, 2 Meters) SPL @ 20/32/40/50/63 Hz:

$2200 JL Audio F112: 92.8/112.4/116.2/113.3/117.6
$9,000 Paradigm Sig Sub2: 106.4/109.9/113.2/116.9/120.2
$1022 Hsu VTF-15H: 103.9/113.0/115.7/115.7/115.6
$5,000 Velodyne DD18+: 103.4/113.0/115.8/116.8/115.3
$2,000 SVS PB13 Ultra: 110.6/113.5/115.5/117.5/117.8
$1,400 Rythmik FV15HP: 108.1/117.0/119.5/119.1/118.8
$1890 Funk 18C: 97.6/106.1/112.1/119.1/124.3
$2,500 Funk 18.0: 103.5/116/121.6/123.8/125.4

Revel Rhythm2 ?



Nice list. I just got the Hsu sub on Friday and although it is just loosening up I'm very impressed with the quality of it. Very fast and tight bass, nice build quality for $1022. No it's not gorgeous but I don't think it takes away from my 52's either. I will adding another soon.
Edited by comfynumb - 10/1/13 at 2:13pm
post #5017 of 6783
My thinking on subs are, sub EQ/Audyssey want you to set the sub(s) between 75db - 78db and I assume most boost that by 3db - 6db in their AVR or pre/pro. So if reference is as I stated, for me it doesn't make much sense to over spend on my subs. I just wanted to compliment my Revels, which I think I did. I understand there are differences in quality spending more money but for me I could not justify it. That said, I understand there's better quality when you spend more money.
Edited by comfynumb - 10/1/13 at 3:16pm
post #5018 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I am hoping Revel will send Audioholics the Rhythm2 for a full review & CEA measurement so that we can compare it to the other subs like Paradigm, Funk, JL, Velodyne, Rythmik, SVS, HSU, etc.

CEA Standard (THD <10%, 2 Meters) SPL @ 20/32/40/50/63 Hz:

$2200 JL Audio F112: 92.8/112.4/116.2/113.3/117.6
$9,000 Paradigm Sig Sub2: 106.4/109.9/113.2/116.9/120.2
$1022 Hsu VTF-15H: 103.9/113.0/115.7/115.7/115.6
$5,000 Velodyne DD18+: 103.4/113.0/115.8/116.8/115.3
$2,000 SVS PB13 Ultra: 110.6/113.5/115.5/117.5/117.8
$1,400 Rythmik FV15HP: 108.1/117.0/119.5/119.1/118.8
$1890 Funk 18C: 97.6/106.1/112.1/119.1/124.3
$2,500 Funk 18.0: 103.5/116/121.6/123.8/125.4

Revel Rhythm2 ?

Power Sound Audio Triax?
post #5019 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

Power Sound Audio Triax?



That is supposed to be one heck of a sub. How things have changed since I bought my last one.
post #5020 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Nice list. I just got the Hsu sub on Friday and although it is just loosening up I'm very impressed with the quality of it. Very fast and tight bass, nice build quality for $1022. No it's not gorgeous but I don't think it takes away from my 52's either. I will adding another soon.

The HSU is equivocally best bang for the buck IMO. Especially when you buy two subs since they give you a discount for 2 subs, right?
post #5021 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

Power Sound Audio Triax?

Yeah, I hope Audioholics will do the CEA measurements for that beast too. biggrin.gif
post #5022 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

My thinking on subs are, sub EQ/Audyssey want you to set the sub(s) between 75db - 78db and I assume most boost that by 3db - 6db in their AVR or pre/pro. So if reference is as I stated, for me it doesn't make much sense to over spend on my subs. I just wanted to compliment my Revels, which I think I did. I understand there are differences in quality spending more money but for me I could not justify it. That said, I understand there's better quality when you spend more money.

Well, the trim levels reflect the average sound level. But for punchy tight bass, we want dynamic sound level. That is why we want CEA standard SPL above 110dB+.

IOW, we could boost the Sub trim levels to +12dB in the AVR and it still won't sound ultra punchy and tight unless it is dynamically capable.

That HSU is 113dB-115dB CEA levels, which is great dynamic SPL. Dual HSU would put your dynamic SPL to 115dB-118dB+. wink.gif
post #5023 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Well, the trim levels reflect the average sound level. But for punchy tight bass, we want dynamic sound level. That is why we want CEA standard SPL above 110dB+.

IOW, we could boost the Sub trim levels to +12dB in the AVR and it still won't sound ultra punchy and tight unless it is dynamically capable.

That HSU is 113dB-115dB CEA levels, which is great dynamic SPL. Dual HSU would put your dynamic SPL to 115dB-118dB+. wink.gif



Yes that would be enough bass for me biggrin.gif
I put in the iron man 3 BD the other night and super 8 and had to turn the trim down, but I couldn't turn the grin on my face down. Very impressive for the money. Yes you can get 2 of them and they'll knock off a little money. I still have 25 days to get the discount price. I'm trying to swing it but no one told me when your kids get older they also get more expensive. Why wasn't this in the manual? biggrin.gif
post #5024 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Yes that would be enough bass for me biggrin.gif
I put in the iron man 3 BD the other night and super 8 and had to turn the trim down, but I couldn't turn the grin on my face down. Very impressive for the money. Yes you can get 2 of them and they'll knock off a little money. I still have 25 days to get the discount price. I'm trying to swing it but no one told me when your kids get older they also get more expensive. Why wasn't this in the manual? biggrin.gif

Yeah, I'm trying to get all my spending in before my girls turn TEEN. eek.gif

Then everything - audio and cars - will be in "maintenance" mode, instead of "buying new" mode. eek.gif
post #5025 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Yeah, I'm trying to get all my spending in before my girls turn TEEN. eek.gif

Then everything - audio and cars - will be in "maintenance" mode, instead of "buying new" mode. eek.gif



You've done well wink.gif and wait their "toys" get more expensive eek.gif my son is 17 and I told him I would help him with a car. My daughter just went out on her own (cha ching)
But honestly, all of us wouldn't have it any other way, and I'm blessed with two great kids.
post #5026 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

You've done well wink.gif and wait their "toys" get more expensive eek.gif my son is 17 and I told him I would help him with a car. My daughter just went out on her own (cha ching)
But honestly, all of us wouldn't have it any other way, and I'm blessed with two great kids.

Yes, material things mean absolutely nothing without our families. wink.gif

Our families mean everything.
post #5027 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Yes, material things mean absolutely nothing without our families. wink.gif

Our families mean everything.



+1
post #5028 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Well, the trim levels reflect the average sound level. But for punchy tight bass, we want dynamic sound level. That is why we want CEA standard SPL above 110dB+.

IOW, we could boost the Sub trim levels to +12dB in the AVR and it still won't sound ultra punchy and tight unless it is dynamically capable.

That HSU is 113dB-115dB CEA levels, which is great dynamic SPL. Dual HSU would put your dynamic SPL to 115dB-118dB+. wink.gif



I'm intrigued by this and I have to state that sub EQ/Audyssey wanting me to set my bass at 75db's is just way too low for me. I bump it up between 3db - 6db depending on the source. I could understand one setting if all media be it movies or music had the same bass, but the industries standard seems to be no standard. So are you saying by CEA standards the bass would be boosted that high?
post #5029 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I'm intrigued by this and I have to state that sub EQ/Audyssey wanting me to set my bass at 75db's is just way too low for me. I bump it up between 3db - 6db depending on the source. I could understand one setting if all media be it movies or music had the same bass, but the industries standard seems to be no standard. So are you saying by CEA standards the bass would be boosted that high?

It runs the test tones with all the speakers at 75 dBs so that's why Audyssey wants you to set your sub at that level, since the sub is self-powered.

It has no bearing on what volume you listen to music or movies on.

Audyssey is good for movies but for music, you may have to tweak it a bit.
post #5030 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Well, the trim levels reflect the average sound level. But for punchy tight bass, we want dynamic sound level. That is why we want CEA standard SPL above 110dB+.

IOW, we could boost the Sub trim levels to +12dB in the AVR and it still won't sound ultra punchy and tight unless it is dynamically capable.

That HSU is 113dB-115dB CEA levels, which is great dynamic SPL. Dual HSU would put your dynamic SPL to 115dB-118dB+. wink.gif

Just to clarify, tight punchy bass has nothing to do with the dynamic capability of a sub. It is a factor of:

1. Drive motor strength relative to the cone's mass to control the cone movement effectively.
2. Proper enclosure design.
3. Room size and modes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I'm intrigued by this and I have to state that sub EQ/Audyssey wanting me to set my bass at 75db's is just way too low for me. I bump it up between 3db - 6db depending on the source. I could understand one setting if all media be it movies or music had the same bass, but the industries standard seems to be no standard. So are you saying by CEA standards the bass would be boosted that high?

They are not really related. CEA is just a standard of measurement so that all results could be compared on an equal basis. Audyssey calibrates to the THX reference which is 85dBs.

Your test tones are at -10dBs from reference so 75dBs. THX reference states that each satellite channel must be able to reach 85dBs at the MLP with 20dBs peaks so each speaker must be capable of hitting 105dBs cleanly. The sub channel must be capable of 85dBs with 30dBs peaks so it will need to be able to hit 115dBs cleanly down to 3Hz. With those numbers in mind, you can see why 99.999% of sub systems are not capable of full THX reference levels.
Edited by duc135 - 10/2/13 at 1:39pm
post #5031 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

It runs the test tones with all the speakers at 75 dBs so that's why Audyssey wants you to set your sub at that level, since the sub is self-powered.

It has no bearing on what volume you listen to music or movies on.

Audyssey is good for movies but for music, you may have to tweak it a bit.



I have mine set at 77db and ok I understand what your saying smile.gif I've been using Audyssey flat for music for around 6 months now and like it, but there is always room for improvement so I appreciate the tips from everyone biggrin.gif Before I got my new sub I put an area rug down on a reflective part of my listening area, moved my seating up 1' toed my 52's out a tad and moved them towards the listening area around 6" reran Audyssey in a 1 1/2' pattern around the MLP. The difference is very noticeable and much improved. I'm getting a new rack this week, putting my panel on the wall finally and I'm going to try the traditional mic positions for Audyssey, just to see how I like it.
Edited by comfynumb - 10/2/13 at 3:21pm
post #5032 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Just to clarify, tight punchy bass has nothing to do with the dynamic capability of a sub. It is a factor of:

1. Drive motor strength relative to the cone's mass to control the cone movement effectively.
2. Proper enclosure design.
3. Room size and modes.
They are not really related. CEA is just a standard of measurement so that all results could be compared on an equal basis. Audyssey calibrates to the THX reference which is 85dBs.

Your test tones are at -10dBs from reference so 75dBs. THX reference states that each satellite channel must be able to reach 85dBs at the MLP with 20dBs peaks so each speaker must be capable of hitting 105dBs cleanly. The sub channel must be capable of 85dBs with 30dBs peaks so it will need to be able to hit 115dBs cleanly down to 3Hz. With those numbers in mind, you can see why 99.999% of sub systems are not capable of full THX reference levels.



So do some run their sub 10db hot for to coincide with THX specs?
post #5033 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

So do some run their sub 10db hot for to coincide with THX specs?

Do some people do that? It's possible I suppose, but the main reason is mostly preference. THX reference is just that. A reference point. It's a standard so we all can have the same frame of reference when designing and talking about audio. So when you say you have your master volume set to -15 it is the same as me when my master volume is set to -15 assuming we have both calibrated our systems so that 0 on the the master volume = 85dBs.

Or are you confusing the fact that reference is 85dBs per speaker, but the test tones are only 75dBs? If so, you needn't worry. Even though the test tones are 75dBs the receiver knows this. As far as I know, all receivers have their test tones at -10dBs from reference which equals the 75dBs Audyssey has you set your subs to in the beginning. They just do that because 85dBs is pretty darn loud so the receiver plays the tones at 75dBs and compensates for that 10dBs discrepancy during the calculating phase. All that being said, if people DO run their subs 10dBs hot thinking they need to do that to get reference level output from their subs then they are doing so incorrectly. It's already accounted for. Like I said previously, the vast majority that run their subs hot do so because of preference.

Just remember, Audyssey isn't the final word in sound optimization. You are. Audyssey sets things to a reference point, you can adjust any setting to tailor to your personal preference. We can correct you if your methodology or understanding of concepts is incorrect, but we can never say your preference is wrong. Of course this won't stop me from from trying to push you and everyone else towards the deep end of ULF (pun intended). wink.gif
post #5034 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Do some people do that? It's possible I suppose, but the main reason is mostly preference. THX reference is just that. A reference point. It's a standard so we all can have the same frame of reference when designing and talking about audio. So when you say you have your master volume set to -15 it is the same as me when my master volume is set to -15 assuming we have both calibrated our systems so that 0 on the the master volume = 85dBs.

Or are you confusing the fact that reference is 85dBs per speaker, but the test tones are only 75dBs? If so, you needn't worry. Even though the test tones are 75dBs the receiver knows this. As far as I know, all receivers have their test tones at -10dBs from reference which equals the 75dBs Audyssey has you set your subs to in the beginning. They just do that because 85dBs is pretty darn loud so the receiver plays the tones at 75dBs and compensates for that 10dBs discrepancy during the calculating phase. All that being said, if people DO run their subs 10dBs hot thinking they need to do that to get reference level output from their subs then they are doing so incorrectly. It's already accounted for. Like I said previously, the vast majority that run their subs hot do so because of preference.

Just remember, Audyssey isn't the final word in sound optimization. You are. Audyssey sets things to a reference point, you can adjust any setting to tailor to your personal preference. We can correct you if your methodology or understanding of concepts is incorrect, but we can never say your preference is wrong. Of course this won't stop me from from trying to push you and everyone else towards the deep end of ULF (pun intended). wink.gif



Audyssey set my 52's to large and full range. So I promptly reset them to small and crossed them at 80. It set my center and surrounds at 60 and I also changed them to 80. But I do prefer my sub 3db-6db hot wink.gif thanks for your thoughts.
Edited by comfynumb - 10/3/13 at 3:52am
post #5035 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Just to clarify, tight punchy bass has nothing to do with the dynamic capability of a sub. It is a factor of:

1. Drive motor strength relative to the cone's mass to control the cone movement effectively.
2. Proper enclosure design.
3. Room size and modes.
"Punchy" and "tight" are subjective verbiage of the bass.

The dampening ability & Q-value is associated with how "tight" the bass is.

What good are those 3 factors if the sub can't even output the necessary SPL?

Even if you had those 3 points covered, if the sub can only output 90dB max, the bass will not sound "punchy or tight". It will just sound underwhelming.

So for "punchy tight" bass, yes, we assume all that stuffs are factors, but more immediately, the sub needs to be able to cleanly output some serious SPL.

Thus, tight punchy bass has a lot to do with the clean low distortion HIGH DYNAMIC output capability of the sub.
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 10/3/13 at 10:59am
post #5036 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

"Punchy" and "tight" are subjective verbiage of the bass.

The dampening ability & Q-value is associated with how "tight" the bass is.

What good are those 3 factors if the sub can't even output the necessary SPL?

Even if you had those 3 points covered, if the sub can only output 90dB max, the bass will not sound "punchy or tight". It will just sound underwhelming.

So for "punchy tight" bass, yes, we assume all that stuffs are factors, but more immediately, the sub needs to be able to cleanly output some serious SPL.

Thus, tight punchy bass has a lot to do with the clean low distortion HIGH DYNAMIC output capability of the sub.

They may be subjective descriptions of bass, but the are accepted descriptions that can be measured in terms of frequency and decay. They have nothing to do with SPL levels. Signal decay of a sub or speaker is the same at 60dBs as it is at 130dBs assuming the speaker/sub is within it's operating range.

A sub capable of 90dBs anechoic can very well sound punchy and tight. Throw that sub in a treated, small closet with you and tell me you can't feel the tight punchy bass. SPL is not a factor when talking about tight, punchy bass. It's mostly all about the three points I mentioned. Take it from the opposite viewpoint. Take a sub that can hit 130dBs. It's dynamic and has clean output. Put that sub in a 10' x 10' x 8' room will it sound punchy and tight? Yes it will. Take that same sub and put it in the middle of a football stadium and sit in the nosebleed seats. Crank up the volume. Is the sub output no longer tight and punchy? Sure it is, you just can't hear it from where you sit. That doesn't really make it any less capable sub. It just means you don''t have the right size tool for the job.

That's just my take on it at least.
Edited by duc135 - 10/3/13 at 7:29pm
post #5037 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

They may be subjective descriptions of bass, but the are accepted descriptions that can be measured in terms of frequency and decay. They have nothing to do with SPL levels. Signal decay of a sub or speaker is the same at 60dBs as it is at 130dBs assuming the speaker/sub is within it's operating range.

A sub capable of 90dBs anechoic can very well sound punchy and tight. Throw that sub in a treated, small closet with you and tell me you can't feel the tight punchy bass. SPL is not a factor when talking about tight, punchy bass. It's mostly all about the three points I mentioned. Take it from the opposite viewpoint. Take a sub that can hit 130dBs. It's dynamic and has clean output. Put that sub in a 10' x 10' x 8' room will it sound punchy and tight? Yes it will. Take that same sub and put it in the middle of a football stadium and sit in the nosebleed seats. Crank up the volume. Is the sub output no longer tight and punchy? Sure it is, you just can't hear it from where you sit. That doesn't really make it any less capable sub. It just means you don''t have the right size tool for the job.

That's just my take on it at least.

Football stadium? eek.gif

Okay, take all 3 of your points and put a sub that can only output 40dB max. Is it going to SOUND punchy and tight?
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 10/4/13 at 7:33am
post #5038 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Football stadium? eek.gif

Okay, take all 3 of your points and put a sub that can only output 40dB max. Is it going to SOUND punchy and tight?

If it has that "drive motor strength", then it won't not be capable of 100+ db anyways
post #5039 of 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Football stadium? eek.gif

Okay, take all 3 of your points and put a sub that can only output 40dB max. Is it going to SOUND punchy and tight?

You may not hear it over ambient noise, but I'm assuming if you can channel that wave directly into your ear without altering the FR and decay then yes, it would still be punchy and tight. That also depends on the frequencies we're talking about. If we're talking about the mid - low bass that people can actually hear then it would definitely still be punchy and tight. Take a listen to a good pair of headphones. You think the bass on those headphones are not punchy and tight? How much SPL do you think those things can put out in a room?
post #5040 of 6783
Good points duc135. I've never understood why so much focus on AVS rests on sheer output of a subwoofer rather than on the sound quality of said subwoofer. As if the sub that can hit the highest SPL with some predetermined amount of THD is the best one out at the moment.
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