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Revel Owners Thread - Page 170

post #5071 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I believe that you truly FEEL that way. But it's a matter of opinion. It's not black and white like the hissing noise through drivers caused by amps. biggrin.gif

Anyway, I have 3 fellow audiophile friends who ave auditioned the LS50. They all tell me the LS50 is 100% neutral and does not have a distinct "voice".

He's right though. I've done informal blind tests, and they were always useless because I could immediately tell which one was the LS50.

That doesn't mean the LS50 is a bad speaker. I don't even think it is necessarily not neutral. It's voiced to a different idea of neutral. Perhaps it is optimized for stereo listening, as the most obvious feature of the voicing is a 2KHz peak. This is about where a dip can be observed due to destructive interference. But I'm just guessing.

I think the more accurate distinguishing characteristic between the M105 and the LS50 is flatness.
post #5072 of 6828
I have not personally heard the LS50s, but I'd be willing to wager that their design is optimized for desk-tops and near-wall placement, where the boundary reinforcement thickens the midrange. When pulled out into a room like typical bookshelves that would seem bright. There's no way around such an issue - if you optimize it for the typical placement then you get a syrupy, overly warm midrange when used as a desktop.

So it comes down to marketing. What does KEF market the LS50s as? Think on that a moment.
post #5073 of 6828
If there is a KEF dealer within a 1000 miles from me I would have considered it. But they are hard to find...and I live just outside of Chicago!
post #5074 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post

He's right though. I've done informal blind tests, and they were always useless because I could immediately tell which one was the LS50.

That doesn't mean the LS50 is a bad speaker. I don't even think it is necessarily not neutral. It's voiced to a different idea of neutral. Perhaps it is optimized for stereo listening, as the most obvious feature of the voicing is a 2KHz peak. This is about where a dip can be observed due to destructive interference. But I'm just guessing.

I think the more accurate distinguishing characteristic between the M105 and the LS50 is flatness.

It's not whether he is RIGHT or WRONG.

It's whether YOU AGREE with him or not.

It's whether your PERCEPTION was the same.

Not everyone has the same exact perception. Our brains are different.

Brains are complex. We all know that.
post #5075 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

It's not whether he is RIGHT or WRONG.

It's whether YOU AGREE with him or not.

It's whether your PERCEPTION was the same.

Not everyone has the same exact perception. Our brains are different.

Brains are complex. We all know that.
+1
Except that my brain is not complex biggrin.gif
post #5076 of 6828
I left mine in the 80's. Hey don't judge me,
have you heard 80's music? biggrin.gif
post #5077 of 6828
What is so funny is that a lot of people think what they hear, see, taste, smell, feel, prefer, and PERCEIVE is FACT and CORRECT, and those who disagree must be WRONG. eek.gif

That what they CARE for is the only opinion that matters.

Who cares what others think, right? biggrin.gif
post #5078 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

+1
Except that my brain is not complex biggrin.gif

You mean compared to WOMEN? biggrin.gif

Yeah, that's the truth. eek.gif
post #5079 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

What is so funny is that a lot of people think what they hear, see, taste, smell, feel, prefer, and PERCEIVE is FACT and CORRECT, and those who disagree must be WRONG. eek.gif

That what they CARE for is the only opinion that matters.

Who cares what others think, right? biggrin.gif
I took a colleague with to a local shop and we listened to B&W CM7s, two different years of Paradidgm Monitor towers, a Klipsch tower and then some bookshelf models. I thought the Paradigms were extremely veiled, but he liked those the best. That reinforced to me that like music, speakers are personal preference. He ended up going with Def Techs which made me feel somewhat better but...
post #5080 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I took a colleague with to a local shop and we listened to B&W CM7s, two different years of Paradidgm Monitor towers, a Klipsch tower and then some bookshelf models. I thought the Paradigms were extremely veiled, but he liked those the best. That reinforced to me that like music, speakers are personal preference. He ended up going with Def Techs which made me feel somewhat better but...

I liked DefTech better than those speakers too back when I audition. biggrin.gif

Looking back, it may have been because the DefTech had built-in subs, which was an unfair comparison in 2.0 mode. I bet in 2.1 mode, the outcome may have been different or at least more EVEN.
post #5081 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Hi, I'm not familiar with the KEF's so would you please explain voiced to me?

In a nutshell, the frequency response is deliberately designed to something other than flat, to give the speaker a characteristic sound. Compare frequency response graphs of the LS50 to unvoiced speakers, such as the new Revels (or most Revels once they discovered the waveguide) or the KEF Reference line. Whereas the unvoiced speakers have more or less flat-line response from (say) 500-10k Hz, a voiced speaker will have other trends in the FR. (A good speaker will maintain the same response shape as one moves off-axis. In that respect both the KEF and Revel models we're discussing are good speakers. Sadly, most "high end" speakers are not "good" speakers.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I believe that you truly FEEL that way. But it's a matter of opinion. ***

I'm sorry. Did you bother to read what you quoted before spouting off?

The only thing I wrote above that is at all a matter of opinion is my speculation that consensus opinion re the desirability of the LS50's voicing may change over time.

By contrast, the following points all reflect objective reality:
-The LS50's are voiced loudspeakers (their target FR is non-flat, especially through the midrange).
-The current consensus is that they sound great.
-In any blind test protocol that does not EQ the speakers to a predetermined curve, the two mini-monitors will be distinguishable from one another. (How can I say that? Because we know that the midrange FR differences between the speakers exceed audibility thresholds.)
-Here's the part you missed, I think, "Preference may, of course, go either way." (Though it's worth noting that in Harman's blind listening unvoiced speakers are generally preferred.)

Now, does that mean that, EQ'ed with a room correction system that produces reliable, repeatable results, one could get results where the LS50 and Revel M105 are indistinguishable? Given that we know the KEF to have consistent directivity (again, see the measurements) and can reasonably infer the same (horizontally, at least) from the Revel given the size of the midwoofer and waveguide, they will both behave fairly linearly to EQ. So I wouldn't put money on being able to tell them apart under those conditions. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Anyway, I have 3 fellow audiophile friends who ave auditioned the LS50. They all tell me the LS50 is 100% neutral and does not have a distinct "voice".

How about, like the two people you're quoting on this issue, you audition them for yourself rather than relying on hearsay? Preferably in the same room with a known unvoiced speaker with similar directivity and output limits. But at any rate your hearsay doesn't tell you anything about the objective neutrality of the speakers. Only that for those three listeners their voicing was very effective.

Lastly, when I want to know more about the human brain, I'll direct those questions to my neurologist wife and not a guy on the internet. smile.gif
post #5082 of 6828
Just how flat must the midrange FR be to meet your requirements for being "flat" vs. being "voiced?"
post #5083 of 6828
I doubt voicing has anything to do with his or anyone else's requirements. If the speaker is deliberately designed to be anything but flat, then it is voiced. KEF is very clear about the fact that the LS50 is voiced.
post #5084 of 6828
I have heard the LS50s and they were pretty special. Thought they sounded like mini Reference. I have seen the M105s but not yet heard them. They were being setup as surrounds and backs so I do plan on going back and hearing some of the Performa3 line and not just as surrounds.
post #5085 of 6828
I definitely recommend it. I absolutely love my M105s.
post #5086 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I have heard the LS50s and they were pretty special. Thought they sounded like mini Reference.

You mean the LS50 sounded like mini 201/2?

IOW, you don't think they sound 100% day-and-night utterly and drastically different?
post #5087 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post


How about, like the two people you're quoting on this issue, you audition them for yourself rather than relying on hearsay?

The POINT is, there is NO right or wrong whether I agree or disagree.

Jim and some other members here also thought the LS50 sounded totally neutral and not "voiced".

Just because you believe something based on your own experience does not make it FACT or CORRECT. That is the point.

Unless you disagree with my statement and believe that whatever you hear is FACT, and anyone who disagrees with you is WRONG? Is that what you are saying?

Are you insinuating that if people think that the LS50 is completely neutral (instead of voiced differently), that they are WRONG or they don't know what they are talking about?

The KEF engineer also told my friend that the LS50 is completely accurate and neutral. So the KEF engineer doesn't know what he's talking about or what?

And lastly, it doesn't take your "neurologist wife" or my neurosurgeon brother or my neurologist friend who calls me and ask about psychotropic medications to tell us that the human brain is complex. eek.gif

We're not discussing neurology or human anatomy or physiology or pathophysiology. We are simply acknowledging the fact that human perception of the senses varies from individual to individual. Something a 10 year old child would know.
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 10/17/13 at 11:26am
post #5088 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post

KEF is very clear about the fact that the LS50 is voiced.

Where did you pull that from?

Here is the exact wording from KEF:

"LS50’s unique technology offers by far the cleanest, most accurate studio-grade performance of any mini monitor
Because LS50 neither adds nor subtracts a single sound, it’s effortlessly natural and accurate too."

Neither adds nor subtracts - in plain English, it means NEUTRAL.

Natural and Accurate - in plain English, it means NEUTRAL.
post #5089 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

In a nutshell, the frequency response is deliberately designed to something other than flat...
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Just how flat must the midrange FR be to meet your requirements for being "flat" vs. being "voiced?"

LS50 measurements.





http://www.kefamerica.com/july12/LS50%20White%20Paper.pdf

Everything I've seen about the LS50 says that it is nothing but neutral and accurate.

From 1.5K-10K, the FR is about +/-1.5dB.

If +/-1.5dB isn't FLAT, I don't know what is. eek.gif
post #5090 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Where did you pull that from?

From the KEF LS50 Whitepaper

http://www.kefamerica.com/july12/LS50%20White%20Paper.pdf]http://www.kefamerica.com/july12/LS50%20White%20Paper.pdf]http://www.kefamerica.com/july12/LS50%20White%20Paper.pdf


See section "Voicing the Loudspeaker".

This is a weird discussion. I own LS50s. I have listened to them countless times. I can tell you they are slightly voiced. They are still good speakers.
post #5091 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post

From the KEF LS50 Whitepaper

http://www.kefamerica.com/july12/LS50%20White%20Paper.pdf]http://www.kefamerica.com/july12/LS50%20White%20Paper.pdf]http://www.kefamerica.com/july12/LS50%20White%20Paper.pdf


See section "Voicing the Loudspeaker".

This is a weird discussion. I own LS50s. I have listened to them countless times. I can tell you they are slightly voiced. They are still good speakers.

You mean the part that says the main objective was for the smoothest response and best subjective performance, not FLATTEST frequency response?

Isn't that the same goal of all speakers? To subjectively sound great? That does not mean the speaker is VOICED to sound unnatural or not neutral.

Measurement is one thing, and the LS50 objectively measures FLAT, but the overall goal of ALL SPEAKERS is to subjectively SOUND GREAT.

But you are right. Why the hell are we talking about KEF in the Revel thread? eek.gif

I apologize to all Revel fans. I am done with talking KEF here. biggrin.gif

Should move this discussion over the B&W thread since we are talking "voicing" and all. wink.gifbiggrin.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 10/17/13 at 11:54am
post #5092 of 6828
It's all good. No one saying anything about Revel speakers anyway. We are remaining "neutral".
post #5093 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Jim and some other members here also thought the LS50 sounded totally neutral and not "voiced".

And measurements show that they're wrong as to the objective reality, though the measurements also lead to an inference that the voicing is widely appreciated (for now, at least). You've posted the measurements. Here's a more detailed on-axis FR plot than the averaged Stereophile one:



Your "plus or minus x dB" rubric for judging speakers just is too simplistic.

Compare to the baby Revel Performa's published measurements, which show no evidence of the "smiley face" voicing of the LS50 (as well as the driver resonance at 2kHz).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Are you insinuating that if people think that the LS50 is completely neutral (instead of voiced differently), that they are WRONG or they don't know what they are talking about?

Please only use words you understand and actually apply to the quoted text, OK?

I didn't "insinuate" any thing. I wrote two simple, easy-to-unpack declarative sentences:

"But at any rate your hearsay doesn't tell you anything about the objective neutrality of the speakers. Only that for those three listeners their voicing was very effective."
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

The KEF engineer also told my friend that the LS50 is completely accurate and neutral. So the KEF engineer doesn't know what he's talking about or what?

Do you not understand basic principles of corporate public relations?
post #5094 of 6828
I've been enjoying my M106 for about 6 months now and they still impress me. Within the last month or so I have picked up a NAD m51 DAC, I thought these speakers were special when playing my CDs but some of the 24/96 samplers I've downloaded sound incredible. I am amazed I have attained that level of sound quality in my living room. The best part about that DAC is BluRay concerts and BR audio discs sound great through HDMI when stripping the 24/96 and 24/48k stereo audio tracks that are present. These little guys sound way better than a small speaker has a right to, especially with a good sub. I needed a small high performance speaker that wouldn't break the bank, and would curb my desire to upgrade until my daughter graduates college. I could live with these for a while they are that good. . I listened to them for about 5 minutes through a HK AVR and had to have them, knowing how great they'd sound with quality separates. They and the 105 are a MUST audition if you are looking for a great compact speaker .
post #5095 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post


But you are right. Why the hell are we talking about KEF in the Revel thread?

I apologize to all Revel fans. I am done with talking KEF here.

With due respect, the Revel Performa3 M105 is almost a twin for the KEF LS50 in terms of cabinet size, pricing, and 5 inch low frequency driver size. Their appearance is certainly different.

I think an in-depth discussion of their relative sonic merits is very useful [particularly since I will be in the market for some fine speakers of this size to match with subs]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

I have not personally heard the LS50s, but I'd be willing to wager that their design is optimized for desk-tops and near-wall placement, where the boundary reinforcement thickens the midrange. When pulled out into a room like typical bookshelves that would seem bright. There's no way around such an issue - if you optimize it for the typical placement then you get a syrupy, overly warm midrange when used as a desktop.

So it comes down to marketing. What does KEF market the LS50s as? Think on that a moment.

Although LS50 pays homage to the BBC monitors of the past, which were likely mounted on a shelf or wall in front of a mixing board, KEF's manual dated 25-04-2012 recommends stands 24" high and at least 50 cm from the back wall. Stereophile auditioned them freestanding a meter from the back wall. That's not mixing studio placement.

We know that Revel also intends the M105 to be used with their own stands or similar in an open arrangement. The manual does not specify distance from rear walls, but suggests experimentation and does not indicate shelf or wall placement.

Seems that there is no material difference in intended placement between these speakers.

Previous data from Atkinson in Stereophile with Ultima2 Salon and Studio suggests Revel generally has flat on axis response with smooth dispersion off axis up to 8 khz that is somewhat closer to the on-axis/listening window level than Atkinson's measurements of KEF LS50 or Reference 201/2.

So, KEF also designed their speakers to have flat on-axis response, with slightly lower level moving off axis than Revel, but the dispersion change seems equally smooth.

So are we debating a slight difference in off-axis dispersion? If so, I'd suggest that the reverberation time and reflective surfaces of the listener's room would be key to whether KEF or Revel is perceived as more 'accurate.'

Harman's test measurements take into account first reflections and power response, but we would need to know the basis of their target curves to assess if their dispersion is too wide, too narrow, or just right.

This comparison really calls in to question: what is the ideal dispersion pattern for a loudspeaker in a given listener's room?

Far from being frustrated by the debate, I find it stimulating that we have such fine products to compare and contrast.
post #5096 of 6828
^^^
I agree but also throw in that music is a personal taste thing and also acknowledge that it can be an acquired taste. As such, speakers could also be a personal taste choice, a bit like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have not heard the M105 yet but I am certain I will like them. Would I prefer the LS50 over the M105 or vice versa. Don't know without listening to both, ideally side by side. If 100 people also did the same, do you think all 100 would pick one over the other - that we would be in 100% agreement?

I just think it is great time when you can get such quality sound in mid price speakers; Revel Performa3, Kef R Series and LS50, Salk Sound, Philharmonic and others. Which is best for you? I can only tell you what I prefer and why, does not mean you will feel the same.
post #5097 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

^^^
I agree but also throw in that music is a personal taste thing and also acknowledge that it can be an acquired taste. As such, speakers could also be a personal taste choice, a bit like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have not heard the M105 yet but I am certain I will like them. Would I prefer the LS50 over the M105 or vice versa. Don't know without listening to both, ideally side by side. If 100 people also did the same, do you think all 100 would pick one over the other - that we would be in 100% agreement?

I just think it is great time when you can get such quality sound in mid price speakers; Revel Performa3, Kef R Series and LS50, Salk Sound, Philharmonic and others. Which is best for you? I can only tell you what I prefer and why, does not mean you will feel the same.



Agreed, and just because some speakers measure well does not guarantee you will like them in your room. Having not heard my Revel's before I bought them did not bother me, if I was into measurements I knew they measured well because Harman is a sticker for measurements and I knew people liked the Revel house sound. This is my third pair of towers so obviously I like how they looked, so in the end it came down to price. I made the right choice for me and my 52's will stay in my setup for the foreseeable future. Would I be happy with KEF, Salk, Phil's, and others? I'm sure I would, and I'm sure they have their own "sound" also that I could get used to. I'll probably end up a Revel guy for life and won't stop until I get the Ultimas in my room, by all accounts I could do a lot worse wink.gif
post #5098 of 6828
Well, you know how some people look at some graphs and claim they hear all kinds of things and make all kinds of judgements based on the graphs. Like they know it all. Claims not based on any blinded tests. Well, they probably claim they've done blinded testing, but we know better. Then they go write some blogs nobody cares about.

It's funny how they always seem to hear those things AFTER measurements have been done. They would never claim anything BEFORE measurements are done. biggrin.gif

But somehow they seem to hear all kinds of different distinctive sounds ONLY AFTER measurements are DONE. biggrin.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 10/18/13 at 11:19am
post #5099 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Well, you know some people look at some graphs and claim they hear all kinds of things and make all kinds of judgements based on the graphs. Like they know it all. Claims not based on any blinded tests. Well, they probably claim they've done blinded testing, but we know better. Then they go write some blogs nobody cares about.

It's funny how they always seem to hear those things AFTER measurements have been done. They would never claim anything BEFORE measurements are done. biggrin.gif

But somehow they seem to hear all kinds of different distinctive sounds ONLY AFTER measurements are DONE. biggrin.gif



Like I've said before I bought mine mainly on your and the other guys say so and the only thing I hear is pure bliss. A dip here or a dip there in my poor room doesn't bother me, so man does not live by measurements alone biggrin.gif
post #5100 of 6828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve. View Post

I've been enjoying my M106 for about 6 months now and they still impress me. Within the last month or so I have picked up a NAD m51 DAC, I thought these speakers were special when playing my CDs but some of the 24/96 samplers I've downloaded sound incredible. I am amazed I have attained that level of sound quality in my living room. The best part about that DAC is BluRay concerts and BR audio discs sound great through HDMI when stripping the 24/96 and 24/48k stereo audio tracks that are present. These little guys sound way better than a small speaker has a right to, especially with a good sub. I needed a small high performance speaker that wouldn't break the bank, and would curb my desire to upgrade until my daughter graduates college. I could live with these for a while they are that good. . I listened to them for about 5 minutes through a HK AVR and had to have them, knowing how great they'd sound with quality separates. They and the 105 are a MUST audition if you are looking for a great compact speaker .

I had the opportunity to hear the m 105 this past weekend at RMAF.
Very impressive and the Harman rep said that the wave guide design is the key to the Performas off axis smoothness. Same tweeter and waveguide in all the Performas according to the rep.
I have listened to the LS 50's a few times and after discounting for my poor audio memory, I think the ls50's sound a little better at low levels. Otherwise, they're both outstanding small monitors given their pricepoint.
Ymmv, Mac
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