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Revel Owners Thread - Page 177

post #5281 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post

That may be, but something can be closer to flat than something else. It's easy to quantify.
One can do a least-squares regression and compare slopes. The slope closer to zero is flatter. Then you can use an R^2 for smoothness.

I'm curious what data you've seen about the M105 that would make you say that about its frequency response. Certainly the Secrets of Home Theater measurements are flatter than any I've seen of the LS50.

For my own curiosity I took some quick measurements in my room with Anthem quick measure. I put the mic 0.5m away with each speaker in the same place and 4" thick fiberglass boards 1 ft away on either side of the speaker and mic set up. The measurements aren't perfect but I think for this discussion they're instructive.

LS50 On-axis


The M105 gets the same treatment


The LS50 seemed to have its smoothest response ~ 20 degrees of axis

It was the Secrets FR plot I was referring to. One thing to watch out for when comparing it to a FR plot from Stereophile is it shown with half the resolution on the amplitude scale....markers every 10 dB. So it may appear smoother at first glance if you're comparing it to a plot that has markers every 5 dB.
post #5282 of 6879
I think you may be confusing acoustic interference for response errors. The only significant deviation I see is between 4 and 6 kHz. This doesn't show up in the 30 degree measurement and would likely vanish in an average such as Stereophile's.
Edited by SyntheticShrimp - 11/4/13 at 10:49pm
post #5283 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post

I purchased a Voice2 in the past couple of weeks. It is again a step up from the first generation Voice. The integration with the Salon2s is much better than when I used the Voice. I use the Salon2s for stereo and home theater, now along with the Voice2 and Performa S206s for surround. Clearly the visual nature of home theatre makes one more tolerant of the audio but nevertheless, the whole combination makes some really great sound.

Which amplifiers are you using with the Salon 2s and the Voice 2 and which home theater processor do you have? I recently purchased an Ultima 2 system as well and now im contemplating upgrades to some of my other components...
post #5284 of 6879
How does Revel compare to B&W for both HT and studio and which would you guys choose if money was no object?

Does Krell amps match up better overall with B&W's or Revel's?
post #5285 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post

How does Revel compare to B&W for both HT and studio and which would you guys choose if money was no object?

Does Krell amps match up better overall with B&W's or Revel's?



I'm sure ADTG will weigh in, he owns both plus a couple of others.
post #5286 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post

How does Revel compare to B&W for both HT and studio and which would you guys choose if money was no object?

Does Krell amps match up better overall with B&W's or Revel's?

What kind of comparison are you seeking. The two brands sound different. It is difficult to compare a brand without knowing the series within the brand. All brands will sound different within a series. If money was no object I would not buy either brand.
I have Revel F32's and C52 center. I like them better for HT than music. I would not consider any B&W under the 800 series.
Any amp operating within its specs should sound the same regardless of speaker brand. Of course some can't accept that a good amp does not have to cost multi thousand $'s.
post #5287 of 6879
Does Revel make a better speaker than B&W 802's for HT? 'Better" is subjective so I mean which is known in the HT world as a better speaker that handles bluray movies better in DTS and Dolby 5.1 and 7.1 ?

Have any of you done any testing with amps and speakers and found which pairs up better with what? For example, does Krell or McIntoch amps tend to work better with Revel or B&W for HT?
post #5288 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post

Does Revel make a better speaker than B&W 802's for HT? 'Better" is subjective so I mean which is known in the HT world as a better speaker that handles bluray movies better in DTS and Dolby 5.1 and 7.1 ?

Have any of you done any testing with amps and speakers and found which pairs up better with what? For example, does Krell or McIntoch amps tend to work better with Revel or B&W for HT?

A speaker capable of handling a movie does not know if it is DTS or DD. A high quality sub will make more difference than either brand you list up to a point. A good center is is a necessity also. You need clear dialog for movies. I would take Revels over the same class as B&W 800 series. The 805 and 805 are bright/harsh to me. I have listened to a lot of movies in a professionally designed and treated theater using 802's and complementing center and surrounds (7.1) Clarity is exceptional., However it sounds almost sterile. This is the owners second such home theater. Each was built by different companies. The sound is still the same.
I have not listened to Revels in this type of setting but I enjoy movies more in my modest untreated room, otherwise I would have bought B&W. Your question is like asking if one prefers blondes or red heads.
Why do you think one amp sounds different with different speaker brands? If you think one amp should work better with B&W look at Rotel. They have very close business ties.
It seems that you are shopping brands and not sound quality.
post #5289 of 6879
For HT, the center channel is the most important speaker (maybe excluding the sub of course). Approximately 70-80% of the sound is from the center.

I just bought a C208 but have not heard it yet. I hope it is great.

My brother had a pair of B&W 800's and their center channel and it was not great for HT. Note thought that it was not the current Diamond Series.
Ken
post #5290 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post

How does Revel compare to B&W for both HT and studio and which would you guys choose if money was no object?

Does Krell amps match up better overall with B&W's or Revel's?

They are very comparable. This is a Revel thread with many Revel owners so I'm sure the bias here will be toward the Revels.

I would probably choose the B&W 800 Diamonds if money was no object but there are lots of choices out there beyond these two brands that are outstanding.

Krell amps will work with either just fine.

In the end when you bring them home, both will sound outstanding.
Edited by lsdec - 11/5/13 at 8:06am
post #5291 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

They are very comparable. This is a Revel thread with many Revel owners so I'm sure the bias here will be toward the Revels.

I would probably choose the B&W 800 Diamonds if money was no object but there are lots of choices out there beyond these two brands that are outstanding.

Krell amps will worth with either just fine.

In the end when you bring them home, both will sound outstanding.

I picked Revels over B&W 12 years ago mainly because of the midrange. The dispersion is much better from the Revels inverted dome.
When I auditioned them, the B&W's sounded great seated but when I stood up and moved around the sound field change was more dramatic with B&W.
I can't check right now, but I believe B&W vertical dispersion was +/- 10 degrees.
That is why I think the Revels often do better in-room response and have a larger sweet spot.

On amps, There is nothing wrong with a Krell. I would look at how much power you want and if you are likely to want to max out the volume.
If you go by THX standard that would be 85 DB + 20DB headroom. There are calculators you can plug in the numbers for the speaker, room, etc.
Since the Salons are 4 ohms below 600 hz, they are basically 4 ohm speakers so you will need 2 watts to achieve their sensitivity ratings.

I sit 33x15x12 room I figure about 2 watts to get 85DB and 100 X that for the headroom.
So I want an amp that does at least 200 WPC into 4 ohms.

If you want more than that and really blast you could consider mono-blocks and the king of value and power would have to be the XPR-1s.
I have had an Outlaw 7500, ATI3005 and now a Parasound A51. I returned the ATI because there was something about my environment that caused transformer hum.

I selected the A51 and it is really a fine amp. Amps measure very similarly and the distortion is below audibility.
However, looking at the reviews when multiple tones are used, the amount of Intermodulation Distortion increases dramatically depending on the design.
Also, Parasound documentation states that it uses DC Servos to in the output stage instead of capacitors where performance can decline over time.
Is that a problem, I have no idea.

There are also new ATI Signature amps using a similar scheme and boasting nearly unlimited slew rates.
I would definitely consider them if price were not an object.

Current thinking is that all amps performing within their specifications sound the same.
Personally, I do not think so. Neither does Gene over at Audioholics so I am in decent company smile.gif

Disregarding that for the moment, you should consider the peak volume level and the power that will require in your room.
If your amp cannot provide the power for a kick drum, bass piano or whatever, it will compress the sound long before you hear distortion.

My 2 cents.

- Rich
post #5292 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I picked Revels over B&W 12 years ago mainly because of the midrange. The dispersion is much better from the Revels inverted dome.
When I auditioned them, the B&W's sounded great seated but when I stood up and moved around the sound field change was more dramatic with B&W.
I can't check right now, but I believe B&W vertical dispersion was +/- 10 degrees.
That is why I think the Revels often do better in-room response and have a larger sweet spot.

On amps, There is nothing wrong with a Krell. I would look at how much power you want and if you are likely to want to max out the volume.
If you go by THX standard that would be 85 DB + 20DB headroom. There are calculators you can plug in the numbers for the speaker, room, etc.
Since the Salons are 4 ohms below 600 hz, they are basically 4 ohm speakers so you will need 2 watts to achieve their sensitivity ratings.

I sit 33x15x12 room I figure about 2 watts to get 85DB and 100 X that for the headroom.
So I want an amp that does at least 200 WPC into 4 ohms.

If you want more than that and really blast you could consider mono-blocks and the king of value and power would have to be the XPR-1s.
I have had an Outlaw 7500, ATI3005 and now a Parasound A51. I returned the ATI because there was something about my environment that caused transformer hum.

I selected the A51 and it is really a fine amp. Amps measure very similarly and the distortion is below audibility.
However, looking at the reviews when multiple tones are used, the amount of Intermodulation Distortion increases dramatically depending on the design.
Also, Parasound documentation states that it uses DC Servos to in the output stage instead of capacitors where performance can decline over time.
Is that a problem, I have no idea.

There are also new ATI Signature amps using a similar scheme and boasting nearly unlimited slew rates.
I would definitely consider them if price were not an object.

Current thinking is that all amps performing within their specifications sound the same.
Personally, I do not think so. Neither does Gene over at Audioholics so I am in decent company smile.gif

Disregarding that for the moment, you should consider the peak volume level and the power that will require in your room.
If your amp cannot provide the power for a kick drum, bass piano or whatever, it will compress the sound long before you hear distortion.

My 2 cents.

- Rich

Hi Rich,

Do you have dimmers in your house? Amps with large transformers can be affected by dimmers and cause transformer hum. Dimmers aren't the only cause—microwave ovens and over-the-stove lights that have a "high and low" setting are also culprits— but generally speaking, dimmers are main culprits. To fix, you need this product: http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/accessories/products/cmx2 to take care of that transformer hum.

The reason why I mention it is because even though you don't hear it any longer, you still have the DC offset problem on your lines and you may want to proactively put something in front of your electronics to mitigate it.
post #5293 of 6879
According to this calculator, with a desired level at 85dB with 20 dB headroom, at 3.35 meters (11 feet)....

I need 562 watts to achieve this on my 88 dB speakers.

XPR-5 is 400 watts at 8 ohms and 600 watts at 4 ohms. Darn! I'm lacking adequate power!!! frown.gif

http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm
post #5294 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post

How does Revel compare to B&W for both HT and studio and which would you guys choose if money was no object?

Does Krell amps match up better overall with B&W's or Revel's?

i know a bit off your question since you say "if money was no object" is the total budget. While im sure the Krell is a great amp i would opt for increasing the budget on the loudspeaker or subs and spending less on the amp I believe the net performance by upgrading the speaker in a given series will far outweigh any potential amp sound improvements (assuming one can hear them anyway) .

Personally im a revel fan for both music and theater, the B&W's have always sounded too lean for my tastes.
post #5295 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

Hi Rich,

Do you have dimmers in your house? Amps with large transformers can be affected by dimmers and cause transformer hum. Dimmers aren't the only cause—microwave ovens and over-the-stove lights that have a "high and low" setting are also culprits— but generally speaking, dimmers are main culprits. To fix, you need this product: http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/accessories/products/cmx2 to take care of that transformer hum.

The reason why I mention it is because even though you don't hear it any longer, you still have the DC offset problem on your lines and you may want to proactively put something in front of your electronics to mitigate it.

Oh, yeah. SmartHome Insteon controllers all over the place.
LED lighting, Microwaves all kinds of neat stuff.

I could not use that product but the ATI3005 was 20 amps.

I still use the 20 amp circuit to allow plugging all components and reduce ground loop.
The A51 encases its transformer in epoxy and it silent unless you stick your ear on the amp which I do not do smile.gif

I do not think I have DC, can you use a multimeter to test it?

Here is a wave form trace we took with my iPad and Oscium:



- Rich
post #5296 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

According to this calculator, with a desired level at 85dB with 20 dB headroom, at 3.35 meters (11 feet)....

I need 562 watts to achieve this on my 88 dB speakers.

XPR-5 is 400 watts at 8 ohms and 600 watts at 4 ohms. Darn! I'm lacking adequate power!!!

http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

I got 773 watts using 88db. Adding 3db (91db) to allow for 2 speakers I got 387 watts.

One of us is wrong.smile.gif
post #5297 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by toynaround View Post

i know a bit off your question since you say "if money was no object" is the total budget. While im sure the Krell is a great amp i would opt for increasing the budget on the loudspeaker or subs and spending less on the amp I believe the net performance by upgrading the speaker in a given series will far outweigh any potential amp sound improvements (assuming one can hear them anyway) .

Personally im a revel fan for both music and theater, the B&W's have always sounded too lean for my tastes.



That's pretty smart or you could make sure your room is well treated, and by doing so will add to the SQ more than any amp ever could. There comes a point where the return on what we spend decreases, and that's where I think I'm at. Yes the Ultima line would sound better but for $400 in heavy drapes for my windows and acoustic panels for some of my walls I think the end result will be better. And easier on my wallet because I'm about upgraded out for awhile biggrin.gif
post #5298 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

I got 773 watts using 88db. Adding 3db (91db) to allow for 2 speakers I got 387 watts.

One of us is wrong.smile.gif

Both numbers sound high to me. tongue.gif

Using the basic crown calculator. Even though it takes 2 watts for 87 DB, I still use that since there are two speakers.
3 Meter distance and allowing for 0DB headroom, I come up 14 watts.

15 DB of headroom requires 451 watts.

- Rich
post #5299 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

That's pretty smart or you could make sure your room is well treated, and by doing so will add to the SQ more than any amp ever could. There comes a point where the return on what we spend decreases, and that's where I think I'm at. Yes the Ultima line would sound better but for $400 in heavy drapes for my windows and acoustic panels for some of my walls I think the end result will be better. And easier on my wallet because I'm about upgraded out for awhile biggrin.gif

in addition to room treatments, room correction Audyssey or similar. Huge improvements in my room.

p
post #5300 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by toynaround View Post

in addition to room treatments, room correction Audyssey or similar. Huge improvements in my room.

p



Agreed and in mine also. I was never a believer in overly processed music but with the XT32 on my Marantz pre it sounds very natural. Of course the Revel mains play a big part.
Edited by comfynumb - 11/5/13 at 1:52pm
post #5301 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

I got 773 watts using 88db. Adding 3db (91db) to allow for 2 speakers I got 387 watts.

One of us is wrong.smile.gif

LOL! What's your distance?

Ok so if I add 3 dB, I need 282 watts. That's perfect since my XPR-5 is 500 watts x 2.

I don't even come close to running out of steam.
post #5302 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

LOL! What's your distance?

Ok so if I add 3 dB, I need 282 watts. That's perfect since my XPR-5 is 500 watts x 2.

I don't even come close to running out of steam.

I can tell you that from real world experience, the 802 diamonds run out of steam before the MC452 runs out.. At any case, in our home, that's waay to loud to listen to for more than a minute or two... Now maybe if I had a party with 20-30 people, I could see me pushing things this far for a prolongued amount of time - but if that's the case I would cut the bass off and let the subwoofers do their thing at which point I am sure the 802s can get louder...
post #5303 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Both numbers sound high to me. tongue.gif

Using the basic crown calculator. Even though it takes 2 watts for 87 DB, I still use that since there are two speakers.
3 Meter distance and allowing for 0DB headroom, I come up 14 watts.

15 DB of headroom requires 451 watts.

- Rich

3M
87 db volume
0 db headroom
88db sensitivity
___________
7 watts required

What is the 2 watts you mentioned
post #5304 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

According to this calculator, with a desired level at 85dB with 20 dB headroom, at 3.35 meters (11 feet)....

I need 562 watts to achieve this on my 88 dB speakers.

XPR-5 is 400 watts at 8 ohms and 600 watts at 4 ohms. Darn! I'm lacking adequate power!!! frown.gif

http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

The Crown "watts needed" calculator is only useful outdoors, or in an anechoic chamber. In a typical domestic living room, think 70-140W to hit the numbers you're seeking with 88dB/W/m speakers, depending on how large and live the room is.

Now, if one's mutilated the room with excessive "room treatments," in addition to being a total eyesore and sounding like stale crap, more power will be required to reach a given listening-position SPL.
post #5305 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

3M
87 db volume
0 db headroom
88db sensitivity
___________
7 watts required

What is the 2 watts you mentioned

Sterophile reviewed the Salons and determined that in the lower frequency range they operated at 4 ohms so it takes 2 watts to achieve their sensitivity rating.

2 x 7 = 14 smile.gif

- Rich
post #5306 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Sterophile reviewed the Salons and determined that in the lower frequency range they operated at 4 ohms so it takes 2 watts to achieve their sensitivity rating.

2 x 7 = 14 smile.gif

- Rich

I never heard of measuring a speaker that way. Does that mean that Harman is putting out bad specs?
post #5307 of 6879
Good action on this thread lately! Figured I'd chime in even though I'm strictly a 2-channel guy.

Upgraded to the F208 this year, and now I'm thinking about a power amp to replace the 150 watt rated NAD C275BEE. Not only looking for more power, but more refined high end (assuming ALL amps don't sound the same. What do I know). At RMAF this year, I talked with Frank Van Alstine about his Synergy 450 amp, as well as Roger Sanders ( I love a guys with strong opinions smile.gif ) about his Magtech. Also thinking about Parasound A21 (which Wilson Audio was using to power their Thors Hammer sub's in the big room), and as a long shot, one of Emotiva's amps. Think if I had to buy right now, an ATI 3002 would be a good fit, but did some one mention a new ATI? So many good amps available these days. (I'm not neccesarily looking for advice since everyone has their own needs. Mostly thinking out loud, because I'm still open to anything as you can probaby tell.) I generally listen at 85 dB give or take, which takes about 1 watt average as indicated by my heavily damped meter, but it's all about the transient peaks, especially with really good recordings with large dynamic range when volume control is at -12 dB, but the average power is still relatively low. Still trying not to spend a bunch of money, though if I quit flying to audio shows I could afford more haha.

Edit: Well I guess I'm done since my stupid phone posted before I was ready. I should get on anyway since I'm vacationing on Kaui, but the thead's interesting. Haha
Edited by denydog - 11/5/13 at 9:26pm
post #5308 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

I never heard of measuring a speaker that way. Does that mean that Harman is putting out bad specs?

I think SPL measurements are at a single frequency so they are correct.
They are not done with sweeps.

Here are the measurements:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-salon-loudspeaker-measurements

Stereophile frequently does this in its loud speaker reviews.
Most speakers impedance vary with frequency and present phase changes which make them harder to drive than is indicated by their SPL efficiency rating.

- Rich
post #5309 of 6879
Quote:
Originally Posted by denydog View Post

Good action on this thread lately! Figured I'd chime in even though I'm strictly a 2-channel guy.

Upgraded to the F208 this year, and now I'm thinking about a power amp to replace the 150 watt rated NAD C275BEE. Not only looking for more power, but more refined high end (assuming ALL amps don't sound the same. What do I know). At RMAF this year, I talked with Frank Van Alstine about his Synergy 450 amp, as well as Roger Sanders ( I love a guys with strong opinions smile.gif ) about his Magtech. Also thinking about Parasound A21 (which Wilson Audio was using to power their Thors Hammer sub's in the big room), and as a longshot, one of Emotiva's amps. Think if I had to buy right now, an ATI 3002 would be a good fit, but did some one mention a new ATI? So many good amps avilable these days. (I'm not neccesarily looking for advice since everyone has their own needs. Mostly thinking out loud, because I'm still open to anything as you can probaby tell.) I generally listen at 85 dB give or take, which takes about 1 watt average as indicated by my heavily damped meter, but it's all about the transient peaks, especially with really good recordings with large dynamic range when volume control is at -12 dB, but the average power is still relatively low. Still trying not to spend a bunch of money, though if I quit flying to audio shows I could afford more haha.

Edit: Well I guess I'm done since my stupid phone posted before I was ready. I should get on anyway since I'm vacationing on Kaui, but the thead's interesting. Haha

I have an A51 and it a fantastic amp.

Here is the information on the new ATI signature amp:

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/atis-signature-amp

I believe it is actually 300 WPC from some posts on Audioholics.

- Rich
post #5310 of 6879
Thanks for the link Rich.
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