or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Revel Owners Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Revel Owners Thread - Page 179

post #5341 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Unless you have 20A circuits in your room, an ATI 3000-series will not be any more powerful than an ATI 2000-series***

This is not the case. These amps come in multiple channel designs, driving 2 channels the ATI3000 can deliver higher power per channel in the 600's versus the 400's for the 2000 series.

Which one is the Levinson No. 532 based on? I thought it was the AT3000-series.

I ask because Home Theater got 342.3W/8Ω/1ch (and 301.1W/8Ω/5ch at clipping) and 492.8W/4Ω/1ch from the presumptively AT2000-based Outlaw 7500, and Stereophile measured 355W/8Ω/2ch and 500W/4Ω/2ch on the No. 532. I don't believe JA has a 20A circuit in his lab.

Hopefully nobody is dim enough to think those differences as measured is material.

SECRETS measured the AT3007-based Lexicon ZX-7 on two 20A circuits, and measured 400W/8Ω and 600W/4 at clipping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Even 15 amp circuits can deliver substantially more power and will only trip when that power level is sustained.

True, but irrelevant. Both amps are rated to deliver more power continuously than a 15A circuit can sustainably supply.

Bottom line is to to get more power than the AT2000 can deliver from a 15A circuit, one needs a more efficient topology (Class G/H, Class D). Or one needs a higher-amperage line to the amp.
Edited by DS-21 - 11/6/13 at 6:01pm
post #5342 of 6861
I can see that with the exception of lsdec, my affinity for Emotiva amps is falling on deaf ears.
I've heard my speakers for extended periods on an honest 100 wpc amp and it was not as good as the XPA-1Ls.
I've also heard the same speakers driven by the JC-1s and subsequently XPR-1s.
No discernible difference whatsoever to me.
It matters not to me how other people spend their money.
post #5343 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

I can see that with the exception of lsdec, my affinity for Emotiva amps is falling on deaf ears.
I've heard my speakers for extended periods on an honest 100 wpc amp and it was not as good as the XPA-1Ls.
I've also heard the same speakers driven by the JC-1s and subsequently XPR-1s.
No discernible difference whatsoever to me.
It matters not to me how other people spend their money.

WHAT... I kid.

Nope I find your post completely believable.
It's funny though, folks are more likely to respond when there is reason to nit-pick (I have been guilty of this).

I don't tend to dispute what people hear, there is no where to go with that.

So do use the XPA-1L's in class A 35 watt mode, do you find an audible difference?

- Rich
post #5344 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Which one is the Levinson No. 532 based on? I thought it was the AT3000-series.

I ask because Home Theater got 342.3W/8Ω/1ch (and 301.1W/8Ω/5ch at clipping) and 492.8W/4Ω/1ch from the presumptively AT2000-based Outlaw 7500, and Stereophile measured 355W/8Ω/2ch and 500W/4Ω/2ch on the No. 532. I don't believe JA has a 20A circuit in his lab.

Hopefully nobody is dim enough to think those differences as measured is material.

SECRETS measured the AT3007-based Lexicon ZX-7 on two 20A circuits, and measured 400W/8Ω and 600W/4 at clipping.
True, but irrelevant. Both amps are rated to deliver more power continuously than a 15A circuit can sustainably supply.

Bottom line is to to get more power than the AT2000 can deliver from a 15A circuit, one needs a more efficient topology (Class G/H, Class D). Or one needs a higher-amperage line to the amp.

I do not think those measurements are as revealing as they could be.
The ATI3000 has more capacitance and bigger transformers.

Sound and Vision/ Home TheaterMag is using 1K signal for the Outlaw 7500.
Secrets does not say what was used to measure Lexicvon ZX-7.
The ZX-7 looks to be the same as the Outlaw 7900.
I asked ATI about the ATI3000 and they said there were differences. The 7900 has 24 transistors per channel and the ATI3000 has twelve with a higher Safe Operating Area. The XLR ins on the ZX-7/7900 auto detect the connection type which lowers the impedance versus the ATI3000's switches.

There are differences in the design and ATI builds amps to the specs requested.

- Rich
post #5345 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

I can see that with the exception of lsdec, my affinity for Emotiva amps is falling on deaf ears.
I've heard my speakers for extended periods on an honest 100 wpc amp and it was not as good as the XPA-1Ls.
I've also heard the same speakers driven by the JC-1s and subsequently XPR-1s.
No discernible difference whatsoever to me.
It matters not to me how other people spend their money.

I'm giving you some EMOTIVA love right about now.
post #5346 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I do not think those measurements are as revealing as they could be.
The ATI3000 has more capacitance and bigger transformers.

Sound and Vision/ Home TheaterMag is using 1K signal for the Outlaw 7500.
Secrets does not say what was used to measure Lexicvon ZX-7.
The ZX-7 looks to be the same as the Outlaw 7900.
I asked ATI about the ATI3000 and they said there were differences. The 7900 has 24 transistors per channel and the ATI3000 has twelve with a higher Safe Operating Area. The XLR ins on the ZX-7/7900 auto detect the connection type which lowers the impedance versus the ATI3000's switches.

There are differences in the design and ATI builds amps to the specs requested.

- Rich

Did you ask ATI if their 60 WPC amp would power the Salon2 just fine? eek.gifbiggrin.gif
post #5347 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Did you ask ATI if their 60 WPC amp would power the Salon2 just fine? eek.gifbiggrin.gif

I asked them and they said, "You are swell to think of us highly, but I wouldn't go that far smile.gif". "Our new signature line is more appropriate you cheap bastod! biggrin.gif" "Go buy the XPR-1 instead if you don't want to buy the Signature" cool.gif
post #5348 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

WHAT... I kid.

Nope I find your post completely believable.
It's funny though, folks are more likely to respond when there is reason to nit-pick (I have been guilty of this).

I don't tend to dispute what people hear, there is no where to go with that.



- Rich

life on avsforum.com in Layman's terms. well said
post #5349 of 6861
When I said the "same speakers" I wasn't referring to my Studio2s but to a friend's Legacy Focus SEs.

RichB, yes I run them in Class A mode and no I've never tried to A/B Class A vs Class A/B, no pun intended wink.gif

I guess I should some day but I'm happy with how my system sounds as a whole in my room although I really need to take some time and add treatments and run an ARC calibration.
It could sound even better.

Oh and thx, I felt the love, now knock it off. eek.gif
Edited by Milt99 - 11/7/13 at 5:17pm
post #5350 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

When I said the "same speakers" I wasn't referring to my Studio2s but to a friend's Legacy Focus SEs.

RichB, yes I run them in Class A mode and no I've never tried to A/B Class A vs Class A/B, no pun intended wink.gif

I guess I should some day but I'm happy with how my system sounds as a whole in my room although I really need to take some time and add treatments and run an ARC calibration.
It could sound even better.

So when it exceeds 35 watts, it switches into A/B mode automatically. I guess I don't know why anyone wouldn't run it in class A mode, that's the point of buying that amp. I'm sure those studio2s sounds amazing.

I think some people think that you run 35 watts max into the studio2s. Am I mistaken here?
post #5351 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

I asked them and they said, "You are swell to think of us highly, but I wouldn't go that far smile.gif". "Our new signature line is more appropriate you cheap bastod! biggrin.gif" "Go buy the XPR-1 instead if you don't want to buy the Signature" cool.gif
Right. biggrin.gif

But the ATI amp sounds so much better. eek.gif

I looked at the Audio Critic Power Cube measurement of the ATI AT6012.
8 ohms = 26.1v = 84w
4 ohms = 23.4v = 137w

2 ohms looks about 15v, which is ~ 133w.
1 ohm looks about 10v, which is ~ 100w.

So the 60 watts per CH ATI is stable down to 1 ohm, not perfect, but stable.

Seriously, the AT1802, AT2002, & AT3002 will drive the Salon2 to human limits.

Or the $500 Harman Crown XLS2500 (440WPC 8 ohms/775WPC 4 ohms) will do great. No need for Emotiva.
post #5352 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post


I think some people think that you run 35 watts max into the studio2s.

And you guys give my AT6012 a hard time with the Salon2? eek.gif

Shoot, my the ATI can do 85W into 8 ohms & 137W into 4 ohms, a lot more than 35W. biggrin.gif
post #5353 of 6861
I am getting the F206 in the next few days. For the time being, I plan to drive them using the Yamaha RX-V3900, which has RMS Power (8 ohms) [THD] of 140W x 7 [0.04%]. I have been running Martin Logan Motion 2s with it. So I have no idea how it will work with full range speakers. The center and the surrounds will continue to be Motion, for the time being. The Motions are 4 ohm speakers.

So what do you guys think? Will it do justice to the F206s?

Thanks...
Edited by neelic - 11/7/13 at 11:49am
post #5354 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Did you ask ATI if their 60 WPC amp would power the Salon2 just fine? eek.gifbiggrin.gif

That is a trick question, you know I have the Salons from way back when they did not have a number suffix. tongue.gif

Of course, you can power them but to what level in what room.
We taking about, 8 DB headroom before compression sets in. And even, then it would be recognized.

I have been thinking about our prior conversations where your amps do not get hot even with the switches on top.
We must have reasonably different rooms and listening habits.

I have no problem getting the A21 heat sinks too hot to keep your hand on them.
When I had the ATI3005, I could aim an Infrared thermometer in the from sides and measure 130 F.
Since our systems are similar, I conclude that I like to user more power.

The House of Flying Daggers sound track "The Echo Game " is an excellent room heater. smile.gif There are some great dynamic tracks as well.

- Rich
post #5355 of 6861
The ATI 6012 is a twelve channel amp so I am guessing no power supply limitations when doing two channel.
post #5356 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by neelic View Post

I am getting the F206 in the next few days. For the time being, I plan to drive them using the Yamaha RX-V3900, which has RMS Power (8 ohms) [THD] of 140W x 7 [0.04%]. I have been running Martin Logan Motion 2s with it. So I have no idea how it will work with full range speakers. The center and the surrounds will continue to be Motion, for the time being. The Motions are 4 ohm speakers.

So what do you guys think? Will it do justice to the F208s?

Thanks...

It depends on your room and your listening habits and budget.
I use a Parasound A51 but the A21 is a great two channel amp, dealers discount them. smile.gif
For those who think amps can sound differently, the Parasound is the best sounding amp I have owned.
For those who don't think they do, it is accurate and clean and looks so good. Those lights are pretty.

The ATI's listed by ADTG are all great amps.
Nobody beats ATI on a budget for power + build quality.

I have also heard the Outlaw M2200 monoblocks which sounded great with my Salons.
For $380 each, they are hard to beat. They are class-G so they run cool too.

A dealer once told me, amps seem to be a primarily male obsession. tongue.gif

- Rich
post #5357 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

It depends on your room and your listening habits and budget.
I use a Parasound A51 but the A21 is a great two channel amp, dealers discount them. smile.gif
For those who think amps can sound differently, the Parasound is the best sounding amp I have owned.
For those who don't think they do, it is accurate and clean and looks so good. Those lights are pretty.

The ATI's listed by ADTG are all great amps.
Nobody beats ATI on a budget for power + build quality.

I have also heard the Outlaw M2200 monoblocks which sounded great with my Salons.
For $380 each, they are hard to beat. They are class-G so they run cool too.

A dealer once told me, amps seem to be a primarily male obsession. tongue.gif

- Rich

I like the fact that ATI amps are made in the USA. No question about that. They just cost more than Emotiva - if they are better that's great...I'm not going to be buying another amp anytime soon so it really doesn't matter to me. smile.gif I want Emotiva to have competition - it's better for us consumers. Outlaw needs to step it up a notch.

And not just amps - this industry is male oriented. Girls in general can just use cheap headphones on their ipod and that's good enough.

My wife uses the under-counter clock radio in the kitchen as opposed to my stereo system because it's more convenient.
post #5358 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by neelic View Post

I am getting the F206 in the next few days. For the time being, I plan to drive them using the Yamaha RX-V3900, which has RMS Power (8 ohms) [THD] of 140W x 7 [0.04%]. I have been running Martin Logan Motion 2s with it. So I have no idea how it will work with full range speakers. The center and the surrounds will continue to be Motion, for the time being. The Motions are 4 ohm speakers.

So what do you guys think? Will it do justice to the F206s?

Thanks...

According to Revel, the F206 is rated for 50-250 watts. So the 140W x 7 is fine.

Into 4 ohm & 2Ch driven, your Yamaha 3900 can output more than 287W (Yamaha 2000).

I would not sweat it. It will be fine.
post #5359 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

That is a trick question, you know I have the Salons from way back when they did not have a number suffix. tongue.gif

Of course, you can power them but to what level in what room.
We taking about, 8 DB headroom before compression sets in. And even, then it would be recognized.

I have been thinking about our prior conversations where your amps do not get hot even with the switches on top.
We must have reasonably different rooms and listening habits.

I have no problem getting the A21 heat sinks too hot to keep your hand on them.
When I had the ATI3005, I could aim an Infrared thermometer in the from sides and measure 130 F.
Since our systems are similar, I conclude that I like to user more power.

The House of Flying Daggers sound track "The Echo Game " is an excellent room heater. smile.gif There are some great dynamic tracks as well.

- Rich

You are getting deaf from insane level is what it is. eek.gif

I stay at or below 85dBA per OSHA standard. biggrin.gif

And I am now more confident than ever that your AT3005 was DEFECTIVE, I tell you, defective! eek.gif
post #5360 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by neelic View Post

I am getting the F206 in the next few days. For the time being, I plan to drive them using the Yamaha RX-V3900, which has RMS Power (8 ohms) [THD] of 140W x 7 [0.04%]. I have been running Martin Logan Motion 2s with it. So I have no idea how it will work with full range speakers. The center and the surrounds will continue to be Motion, for the time being. The Motions are 4 ohm speakers.

So what do you guys think? Will it do justice to the F206s?

Thanks...

Just "looking at the specs" your Motion 2s are listed as 86 dB sensitive, with a nominal impedance of 4ohms (according to Martin Logan). The F206s are listed as 88dB sensitive with a nominal impedance of 8ohms, so if anything the F206s are (on paper) slightly more sensitive than the MLs...so your Yamaha should be fine for the time being I think! Just listen at the volumes you normally would, monitor the Yamaha to see if it's getting extremely hot or shuts down during "spirited" playback sessions...
post #5361 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by neelic View Post

I am getting the F206 in the next few days. For the time being, I plan to drive them using the Yamaha RX-V3900, which has RMS Power (8 ohms) [THD] of 140W x 7 [0.04%]. I have been running Martin Logan Motion 2s with it. So I have no idea how it will work with full range speakers. The center and the surrounds will continue to be Motion, for the time being. The Motions are 4 ohm speakers.

So what do you guys think? Will it do justice to the F206s?

Thanks...

Will it do justice? It depends how critical you are. It'll work of course and you'll notice a huge improvement over your existing speakers.

When you are ready to upgrade to separates, then you'll be shocked again.
post #5362 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

You are getting deaf from insane level is what it is. eek.gif

I stay at or below 85dBA per OSHA standard. biggrin.gif

And I am now more confident than ever that your AT3005 was DEFECTIVE, I tell you, defective! eek.gif

We need to get you some ear defenders so you can heat up those amps smile.gif

The deafer you get, the larger the amp... tongue.gif

- Rich
post #5363 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

Will it do justice? It depends how critical you are. It'll work of course and you'll notice a huge improvement over your existing speakers.

When you are ready to upgrade to separates, then you'll be shocked again.

Shocked??? Do separates make that much difference? The Yamaha 3900 is no slouch. Asking because I have never heard separates properly. The plan is to retain the Yamaha as a prepro and add an amp for the LCR some time in the future.
post #5364 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Which one is the Levinson No. 532 based on? I thought it was the AT3000-series.

I ask because Home Theater got 342.3W/8Ω/1ch (and 301.1W/8Ω/5ch at clipping) and 492.8W/4Ω/1ch from the presumptively AT2000-based Outlaw 7500, and Stereophile measured 355W/8Ω/2ch and 500W/4Ω/2ch on the No. 532. I don't believe JA has a 20A circuit in his lab.

Hopefully nobody is dim enough to think those differences as measured is material.

SECRETS measured the AT3007-based Lexicon ZX-7 on two 20A circuits, and measured 400W/8Ω and 600W/4 at clipping.
True, but irrelevant. Both amps are rated to deliver more power continuously than a 15A circuit can sustainably supply.

Bottom line is to to get more power than the AT2000 can deliver from a 15A circuit, one needs a more efficient topology (Class G/H, Class D). Or one needs a higher-amperage line to the amp.

I do not think those measurements are as revealing as they could be.

If you wish to ignore reality on a trivial issue, that is of course your right.

But to end the conversation, none of your justifications remotely impact the basic truth that on a 15A circuit there's no material difference between the '2000 and '3000. On a higher-amperage circuit, the '3000 can and does produce more power.

Another factor to consider is that using an AT3000 improperly, i.e. on a circuit that's weaker than specified, may void the warranty.
post #5365 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

If you wish to ignore reality on a trivial issue, that is of course your right.

But to end the conversation, none of your justifications remotely impact the basic truth that on a 15A circuit there's no material difference between the '2000 and '3000. On a higher-amperage circuit, the '3000 can and does produce more power.

Another factor to consider is that using an AT3000 improperly, i.e. on a circuit that's weaker than specified, may void the warranty.

I never suggested that you take an ATI3000 amp that comes with a 20 amp plug into a 15 amp circuit.
Since that is a really bad idea, I have no idea why you want to compare the ATI2000 and ATI3000 on a 15 amp circuit.

According to the specs with FTC Full Bandwidth specs:

The ATI2000 is a 200/300 WPC into 8/4 ohms.
The ATI3000 is a 300/450 WPC into 8/4 ohms.

According to the specs 1kHz Power Sepcs:

The ATI2000 is a 250/375 WPC into 8/4 ohms.
The ATI3000 is a 350/475 WPC into 8/4 ohms.

They are conservatively rated.

- Rich
post #5366 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by neelic View Post

Shocked??? Do separates make that much difference? The Yamaha 3900 is no slouch. Asking because I have never heard separates properly. The plan is to retain the Yamaha as a prepro and add an amp for the LCR some time in the future.

First, congrats on making a fine choice on speakers. Those fine speakers deserve associated equipment that'll bring out the most in them.

That's all I'm trying to say. I expect it to be a huge improvement over the motion 20...but that's just a guess and a prediction.
post #5367 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by neelic View Post

Shocked??? Do separates make that much difference? The Yamaha 3900 is no slouch. Asking because I have never heard separates properly. The plan is to retain the Yamaha as a prepro and add an amp for the LCR some time in the future.

Not any difference to me subjectively when compared using the same exact settings (Audyssey DEQ vs Audyssey DEQ, Direct vs Direct).

And even less of a difference objectively in terms of FR, SNR, THD, Crosstalk. Some AVR even measure better than some pre-pro separate.

I really can't tell a significant difference between the Denon 3312 vs Denon AVP-A1. The minor difference may be there, but the bigger difference is in the speakers & subs.

The higher-end Yamaha are very robust. For example, the Z9 can output 382WPC x 2Ch into 4 ohms. The Yamaha 2000 can output 287WPC x 2Ch into 4 ohms. Very potent.
post #5368 of 6861
Lol. What's the point having all that good stuff if you can't hear? I guess it's bc you can.

TV speakers work just fine too...provided you can hear smile.gif. Subtitles anyone? biggrin.gif
post #5369 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I never suggested that you take an ATI3000 amp that comes with a 20 amp plug into a 15 amp circuit.
Since that is a really bad idea,***

Thanks for the clarification.

One could reasonably infer you did suggest exactly that based on our exchange. But since that inference would be incorrect, it seems we broadly agree.
post #5370 of 6861
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

Lol. What's the point having all that good stuff if you can't hear? I guess it's bc you can.

TV speakers work just fine too...provided you can hear smile.gif. Subtitles anyone? biggrin.gif

Diminishing returns. biggrin.gif

I think the Denon AVP-A1 sounds identical to the AVR-5308, although the AVP-A1 is overbuilt to crazy standards like fully balanced topology from input to output. But even the Denon 48xx, & 43xx are practically just as good. Even the $1300 X4000 (& 3313/3312) is so good that it is difficult to tell a significant difference, especially in Pure Direct mode.

Perhaps years ago AVRs were not up to current standards. But modern AVRs have matured so much like DACs that diminishing returns are more prominent than ever. Look at the measurements of the AVRs. They measure more like high-end separate components than AVRs did years ago. And the difference in any of these measurements are really inaudible.

And I've heard separates from Krell, Bryston, Mark Levinson, Classe, Anthem, McIntosh, etc. They really don't sound any better than modern $1K AVRs from Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, HK, especially in Direct mode. Why is that? I think ultra precision-made higher tech Integrated Circuit boards in modern day AVRs.

So why do separates costs so much more? Sure, a lot more expensive thicker heavier components, some higher quality parts, much better aesthetics, and the brand name tag.

When companies design components that are truly fully balanced from input to output, they sure brag about it and advertise to the whole world to know. So look at the spec and features of these ultra high-end components. Yes, some certainly brag the fully balanced mantra. But surprisingly, a lot of the specs don't even list as fully balanced. Are we supposed to automatically assume and give them absolute unequivocal credit that they are fully balanced? eek.gif

Why do they brag about for their $15K components, but don't even mention a single word on their $8K components? eek.gif

We think, "Surely, they must be fully balanced even when they don't brag about being fully balanced half the time!" eek.gif

Now when we apply processing, that's a different story. When we use Audyssey, Dynamic EQ, or other Room Corrections and Sub EQs, that's where the major differences arise. But then we go into the subjective opinions about which ones are better all day long back and forth perpetually. biggrin.gif

That's my take after listening and comparing the high end separates to AVRs. Objectively and subjectively, the difference isn't very significant. biggrin.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 11/8/13 at 6:33am
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Revel Owners Thread