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Revel Owners Thread - Page 183

post #5461 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post

It definitely sounds like you are suffering from asymmetric side wall reflections.

Can you put some heavy curtains on the window?

If not, try toeing the speakers in past the listening position. Like a cross firing arrangement.

If neither of those work you might want to try speakers with high directivity like a horn speaker

As far as the bass, you are very much at the mercy of speaker placement. Try moving the speakers away from the walls and definitely consider some subwoofers. .



Nice recommendations smile.gif
post #5462 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post

It definitely sounds like you are suffering from asymmetric side wall reflections.

Can you put some heavy curtains on the window?

If not, try toeing the speakers in past the listening position. Like a cross firing arrangement.

If neither of those work you might want to try speakers with high directivity like a horn speaker

As far as the bass, you are very much at the mercy of speaker placement. Try moving the speakers away from the walls and definitely consider some subwoofers. .

+1. Agreed. Heavy curtains will help tame some of the reflections off the windows.

Any chance you can rearrange your setup by doing one of the following:
1) Keep the general layout intact but move the whole system several feet farther away from that wall/window.
2) Completely rearrange the layout by putting the speakers and TV against the window, ie, have them firing down the long direction of the room. That should help quite a bit with the bass issues too.
post #5463 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

+1. Agreed. Heavy curtains will help tame some of the reflections off the windows.

Any chance you can rearrange your setup by doing one of the following:
1) Keep the general layout intact but move the whole system several feet farther away from that wall/window.
2) Completely rearrange the layout by putting the speakers and TV against the window, ie, have them firing down the long direction of the room. That should help quite a bit with the bass issues too.

I want to echo these comments and emphasize two critical points.

First, toe in the speakers as a test to soften the first reflection.

Secondly you are certainly dealing with room acoustic issues due to placement. Do you have the ability to deal with the speaker that is against the wall and try it at the 1/3 point of the wall? Then do the next speaker the same way that is 2/3 etc down the wall. Then make sure that the tweeter is exactly 36" from the rear wall. This is just for testing and is art and science. See if that improves things. If not then move only the left speaker to the left and then to the right in 6" increments. See what sounds better and then reduce movements to 1".

If you are serious about nailing the sound in the room, get Jim Smith's book or DVD GET BETTER SOUND online. His methodology is a bit different than what you will ordinarily find online but it's really sound and helps you play the room. He starts off with determining speaker placement by bass response and seating first and foremost and then goes into the rest.

From what you are describing I think his methodology will help.

His claim to fame is winning a few "best of show" for his speaker setups at various audio shows and Jim goes around the country helping people with their setups. The methodology he's used he has now put into the book and DVD.
post #5464 of 6909
I'm just getting started treating my room. I put heavy drapes on my windows and just placed a few 24" x 48" x 2" acoustic panels behind my and to the sides of my mains. You should hear the difference! The highs are so crisp and it just sounds better, like the sound is staying in the middle of the room more.
post #5465 of 6909
Way, way off topic but it does relate to the posts in this thread about amplifier makers who build to spec for other brands.
I just saw the article on Audioholics about the Sim Audio $18k pre-pro actually being a "re-engineered" to be generous, Denon!
Our own ADTG was all over it.
For me, I'm really disappointed that Sim Audio went this route.
Definitely shades of the Lexicon disc player that was an Oppo in sheep's clothing at an exponential price.

In this day and age how did they ever think that this wouldn't get uncovered?
Really a dumb, dumb move.
Edited by Milt99 - 11/16/13 at 12:03pm
post #5466 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Way, way off topic but it does relate to the posts in this thread about amplifier makers who build to spec for other brands.
I just saw the article on Audioholics about the Sim Audio 18k pre-pro actually being a "re-engineered" to be generous, Denon!
Our own ADTG was all over it.
For me, I'm really disappointed that Sim Audio went this route.
Definitely shades of the Lexicon disc player that was an Oppo in sheep's clothing at an exponential price.

In this day and age how did they ever think that this wouldn't get uncovered?
Really a dumb, dumb move.

Yeah, turning a relatively outdated $1K Denon into an $18K pre-pro is just bad.

Turning a fully balanced $7.5K Denon with state of the art Audyssey XT32 + dual Sub EQ into an $18K pre-pro would be a lot more forgiving.
post #5467 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Yeah, turning a relatively outdated $1K Denon into an $18K pre-pro is just bad.

Turning a fully balanced $7.5K Denon with state of the art Audyssey XT32 + dual Sub EQ into an $18K pre-pro would be a lot more forgiving.
Still a rip-off, and considering what it appears Sim did, illegal.
post #5468 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Yeah, turning a relatively outdated $1K Denon into an $18K pre-pro is just bad.

Turning a fully balanced $7.5K Denon with state of the art Audyssey XT32 + dual Sub EQ into an $18K pre-pro would be a lot more forgiving.
Still a rip-off, and considering what it appears Sim did, illegal.

Agree for sure. I certainly wouldn't buy it even then.

I was just saying that for $18K, things like fully balanced differential design from input to output, the latest Audyssey XT32 dual Sub EQ, crosstalk -110dB, SNR at least -110dB, class-A analog dual differential preamp section, & other things should be standard.

I think Simaudio was on the right track, but they just got lost. biggrin.gif

If they had taken the fully balanced Denon AVP-A1 and put it into a Simaudio body and sold it for $9K, I think that would have be reasonable.
post #5469 of 6909
I made this pretty much identical post over at the B&W thread but figured I would close the loop here as well.

Had a fun day on Thursday – a friend was looking for speakers so we went to the dealer and had us a nice listening session. We heard Revel, Sonus Faber and B&W.

We started out with the Revel F206 – I had high expectations because of all the great things I heard/read about how great the F208 was. Long story short we did not think the speaker delivered – it felt muffled and muddy. In a nutshell my friend said – “I guess I could be happy with these”. Not exactly the audiophile nirvana .

We then moved over to the Venere 3.0 and the first impression was: did you switch the cables from the Revel to the Sonus Faber? To our ears the Venere 3.0 and the F206 sounded very similar. After we went back and forth a couple of times you could pick up differences and to my ears the Venere sounded better.

We then brought in the CM10. I am apparently a B&W guy because I immediately said to myself – oooh this is way better. That said, I didn’t love the bass on the CM10. It was relatively boomy. But overall to both of our ears a nicer better sounding speaker than the previous two. If I wanted to, I could definitely nit pick things on this speaker but we were getting closer to making a decision on what to buy.

Next we listened to the F208 and that speaker felt like it was in another league – we liked it a lot. It was sooo much better to us than the F206 that I could easily recommend it over it for the price difference. We actually came to buy the F208 so this audition was going pretty well… except that after serious consideration, the F208 seemed to be physically larger than what my friend wanted in her house.

So we went back to the CM10 to be sure that is what she wanted. And while we were doing that we figured we’d throw in the 804 diamonds just for kicks. As soon as we heard it we both knew which speakers she was taking home. The 804 is such a great speaker. It not only sounds great but it sound completely balanced.

So this whole story leads me to a question: My friend wants to buy a receiver. Let’s say no more than $3k. Preferably a surround sound receiver because she is thinking about getting a center channel in the future. Dealer suggested NAD or Rotel. I am thinking add Marantz and Onkyo/Integra to the mix. If you can think of a pre-amp / amp combo within the same price range please do say. What do you guys think?
post #5470 of 6909
^Just curious, where the speakers all placed in the same spot (ie, did they move speakers each time you listened), or did they have speakers spread around a room (or multiple rooms) and you moved around?
post #5471 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

I made this pretty much identical post over at the B&W thread but figured I would close the loop here as well.

Had a fun day on Thursday – a friend was looking for speakers so we went to the dealer and had us a nice listening session. We heard Revel, Sonus Faber and B&W.

We started out with the Revel F206 – I had high expectations because of all the great things I heard/read about how great the F208 was. Long story short we did not think the speaker delivered – it felt muffled and muddy. In a nutshell my friend said – “I guess I could be happy with these”. Not exactly the audiophile nirvana .

We then moved over to the Venere 3.0 and the first impression was: did you switch the cables from the Revel to the Sonus Faber? To our ears the Venere 3.0 and the F206 sounded very similar. After we went back and forth a couple of times you could pick up differences and to my ears the Venere sounded better.

We then brought in the CM10. I am apparently a B&W guy because I immediately said to myself – oooh this is way better. That said, I didn’t love the bass on the CM10. It was relatively boomy. But overall to both of our ears a nicer better sounding speaker than the previous two. If I wanted to, I could definitely nit pick things on this speaker but we were getting closer to making a decision on what to buy.

Next we listened to the F208 and that speaker felt like it was in another league – we liked it a lot. It was sooo much better to us than the F206 that I could easily recommend it over it for the price difference. We actually came to buy the F208 so this audition was going pretty well… except that after serious consideration, the F208 seemed to be physically larger than what my friend wanted in her house.

So we went back to the CM10 to be sure that is what she wanted. And while we were doing that we figured we’d throw in the 804 diamonds just for kicks. As soon as we heard it we both knew which speakers she was taking home. The 804 is such a great speaker. It not only sounds great but it sound completely balanced.

So this whole story leads me to a question: My friend wants to buy a receiver. Let’s say no more than $3k. Preferably a surround sound receiver because she is thinking about getting a center channel in the future. Dealer suggested NAD or Rotel. I am thinking add Marantz and Onkyo/Integra to the mix. If you can think of a pre-amp / amp combo within the same price range please do say. What do you guys think?

If you preferred the 804 I can understand why others might sound less bright. I have listened to the F206 and it definitely did not sound muddy or muffled. I was most impressed with the mids and punchy the bass.
post #5472 of 6909
The only way to get the sound right is to do it how Kevin V does it... Have a couple of guys switch them to the exact same position in a matter of a minute or two. Same processing, amps and source in the same room and listen at the same LP. This said it doesn't surprise me the B&W's sounded great and you picked them, but in the end it's all subjective. What's the price of the 804's?


Edit;
IMO you can do better than the NAD, they are nice but none have Audyssey XT32, just MultEQ XT. Pick one with XT32, it makes a big difference.
Edited by comfynumb - 11/16/13 at 4:03pm
post #5473 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

If you preferred the 804 I can understand why others might sound less bright. I have listened to the F206 and it definitely did not sound muddy or muffled. I was most impressed with the mids and punchy the bass.



Yeah jeez my 52's must sound really muddy confused.gif
post #5474 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

^Just curious, where the speakers all placed in the same spot (ie, did they move speakers each time you listened), or did they have speakers spread around a room (or multiple rooms) and you moved around?

Speakers were next to each other - staggered. So theoretically they were as close to the same spot as possible.
post #5475 of 6909
I would look at the power specs of the 804s and look at Marantz or Denon gear.
I have always like the sound of both with a preference for Marantz.

Congratulations on your friend's purchase.
Not surprised that she picked the B&Ws, they're 50% more than the F208s.
post #5476 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

The only way to get the sound right is to do it how Kevin V does it... Have a couple of guys switch them to the exact same position in a matter of a minute or two. Same processing, amps and source in the same room and listen at the same LP. This said it doesn't surprise me the B&W's sounded great and you picked them, but in the end it's all subjective. What's the price of the 804's?

If you bring price into the mix the 804 should have definitely won (as they did). I think the F208 is great and could have been a real contender if it wasn’t for the size restriction. As far as room placement we had no more than two speakers at the "podium" at a time and they were running off the same everything. So one of the configuration was as follows: F206 / Venere / electronics / F206 / Venere. We pulled cables from one speaker and put into the other, restart the song. Couldn't think of a faster more fair way to compare them.

Quote:

Edit;
IMO you can do better thank the NAD, they are nice but none have Audyssey XT32, just MultEQ XT. Pick one with XT32, it makes a big difference.

I like XT32. What do you suggest outside of NAD?
post #5477 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

The only way to get the sound right is to do it how Kevin V does it... Have a couple of guys switch them to the exact same position in a matter of a minute or two. Same processing, amps and source in the same room and listen at the same LP. This said it doesn't surprise me the B&W's sounded great and you picked them, but in the end it's all subjective. What's the price of the 804's?


Edit;
IMO you can do better than the NAD, they are nice but none have Audyssey XT32, just MultEQ XT. Pick one with XT32, it makes a big difference.

But not always for the best.
post #5478 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Yeah jeez my 52's must sound really muddy confused.gif

No offense meant by this. I am just sharing what we heard on one day at one dealer on one set of electronics.
post #5479 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

I would look at the power specs of the 804s and look at Marantz or Denon gear.
I have always like the sound of both with a preference for Marantz.

Congratulations on your friend's purchase.
Not surprised that she picked the B&Ws, they're 50% more than the F208s.

804 Diamonds are rated up to 200 W but get down to 3 ohm for a decent amount of time...
post #5480 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

No offense meant by this. I am just sharing what we heard on one day at one dealer on one set of electronics.

To add to this, it's obvious I like the B&W "sound". My comments above are obviously "exaggerated" so that I can highlight the differences that I heard.

But also I love the Studio2 as much as I love the 802 diamonds that I have. They are just different. Would love to have both!
post #5481 of 6909
It's all good BVLDARI smile.gif your friend made a good choice.
I have the Marantz AV8801 pre/pro and have been loving it for over 10 months. You can probably get one for under $2,800. Or a nice Denon AVR with XT32 is a good choice. Some don't like Audyssey but I've found it to be nothing short of spectacular in my room, especially for HT. Music is a little tougher to dial in but I've got it done pretty good with it engaged.
post #5482 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

It's all good BVLDARI smile.gif your friend made a good choice.
I have the Marantz AV8801 pre/pro and have been loving it for over 10 months. You can probably get one for under $2,800. Or a nice Denon AVR with XT32 is a good choice. Some don't like Audyssey but I've found it to be nothing short of spectacular in my room, especially for HT. Music is a little tougher to dial in but I've got it done pretty good with it engaged.

The problem is she wants to be under $3k total for pre/pro and amp or receiver...
post #5483 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

The problem is she wants to be under $3k total for pre/pro and amp or receiver...



I'd look into a Denon AVR then, but there's lots of good choices. Contact AVS sales maybe, they're an authorized Denon and Marantz dealer.
post #5484 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

My friend wants to buy a receiver. Let’s say no more than $3k. Preferably a surround sound receiver because she is thinking about getting a center channel in the future. Dealer suggested NAD or Rotel. I am thinking add Marantz and Onkyo/Integra to the mix. If you can think of a pre-amp / amp combo within the same price range please do say. What do you guys think?

The 804 Diamond measures about +/-5dB from 200Hz-10kHz on axis. Voltage sensitivity was 89.3dB(B)/2.83V/m. Impedance reach a minimum value of 3 ohms at 108Hz, there is a combination of 4.5 ohms and a 53° capacitive phase angle at 72Hz, and the impedance remains below 4 ohms for much of the midrange and the top octave.

Minimum impedance of < 4 ohms + phase angle > +/-45 degrees may be difficult for some AVR to power.

So she could try a Denon X4000. If it ever goes into protection mode and shuts down, just add an external amp like the $600 ATI AT1202 for 804D2.

http://www.classicaudioparts.com/index.php/amplifiers/ati-at1202-two-channel-x-120-watt-amplifier-b-stock-120-v.html

The rated power is 180W into 4 ohms (since min impedance is 3 ohms, 4 ohms midrange). But actual power output @ 1% THD would be > 200W. And ATI amps are stable down to 1 ohms.

I think a lot of times it's more about stability down below 4 ohms in speakers like these (low impedance + high phase angel) than maximum power output.
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 11/16/13 at 5:08pm
post #5485 of 6909
^^^
That's probably one of the best at that price point and maybe higher.
post #5486 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

^^^
That's probably one of the best at that price point and maybe higher.

are you referring to the ATI amp?
post #5487 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

are you referring to the ATI amp?



I was referring to the Denon X4000, which is packed full of all the goodies. As long as it can drive the diamonds, they look a little demanding. I drove a set of PSB golds with my old Denon AVR which are also pretty demanding, they sounded good with it. I'd keep an eye on the AVR temperature with a 4 ohm speaker, just a suggestion.
post #5488 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

The problem is she wants to be under $3k total for pre/pro and amp or receiver...

Emotiva XPA5 and UMC-200. I have owned Denon 4310 and 4311. IMO the Emotiva sounds better.
post #5489 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

To add to this, it's obvious I like the B&W "sound". My comments above are obviously "exaggerated" so that I can highlight the differences that I heard.

But also I love the Studio2 as much as I love the 802 diamonds that I have. They are just different. Would love to have both!
Heretic! biggrin.gif
post #5490 of 6909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Heretic! biggrin.gif
Absolutely! There is no way someone who likes Revel or B&W or Kef that they could like one of the others. Treason at minimum, damned for all eternity most likely.
Edited by jima4a - 11/16/13 at 6:21pm
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