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New DVDO iScan VP50 - Page 2

post #31 of 6307
8/19/06 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlemesle View Post


What i/S means ?

iScan
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post #32 of 6307
8/19/06 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

Umm... just curious here (seriously), but what is the market for a $3000 external scaler when...

... with a 1080p source and a 1080p display, there is no scaling or deinterlacing to do... while I suppose probably most of the market for this is in projectors, wouldn't a more cost effective and higher quality solution be to get a 1080p projector?

... I'll be able to buy an AVR soon in the $2000 - $2500 range with a Realta HQV scaler that is equal or higher quality. That'll scale my video inputs all the way down to a VCR and switch audio and video at the same time to boot and serve as an amp, etc.

Just curious, cuz I thought the window for this type of product would be closing with 1080p... so wondering if there is any real advantage. Yeah, you can tweak this sucker more then an AVR, but seriously, do you really need to? .

I suppose if the person spending the $3,000 thinks it is worthwhile because they believe the processing to be better than HQV then it is probably worthwhile to that person. $3k isn't bad and seems in line with other outboard scalers....albeit I'd like to see some of the things Dale has been hinting about sooner than later. So lets hope DVDO keeps the firmware updates coming once I upgrade.
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post #33 of 6307
8/19/06 at 1:24pm
Great news! Legendary DVDO support coupled with true 1080p and ABT102 quality deinterlacing could make this an unbeatable product. I'm also glad to hear that it will transcode HDMI audio to SPDIF.
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post #34 of 6307
8/19/06 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Great news! Legendary DVDO support coupled with true 1080p and ABT102 quality deinterlacing could make this an unbeatable product. I'm also glad to hear that it will transcode HDMI audio to SPDIF.

So, this is an other difference between VP50 and VP30 since VP30 faq said that :

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP30 FAQ View Post

If the incoming HDMI signal has HDCP, then the iScan VP30 can not output this audio using the optical or coaxial digital outputs, only the HDMI output.
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post #35 of 6307
8/19/06 at 1:52pm
So what's the benifit to 720p displays? I feed an 8720 sd dvd and sd/hd cable via a vp30/abt102.

Is this more for 1080p displays? I can't swing one just yet, my Benq is only 5 months old and I want to wait for the format battle to be over.

Jeremy
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post #36 of 6307
8/19/06 at 2:42pm
Can someone explain the differences in the way the VP50 processes the HD? From what I read this is one area where DVDO was a bit behind the curve.
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post #37 of 6307
8/19/06 at 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD View Post

Can someone explain the differences in the way the VP50 processes the HD? From what I read this is one area where DVDO was a bit behind the curve.

The VP50 appears to use the same motion adaptive (or what DVDO calls edge adaptive and source adaptive I believe) and 3:2 pulldown as the ABT102 card in the VP30. I'll likely upgrade because I want the latest greatest. But there is so much resolution (making deinterlacing artifacts much harder to see) in HDTV that I truly wonder if even half the people up here would know the difference if they saw true 1080i deinterlacing vs. field scaled 1080i.
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post #38 of 6307
8/19/06 at 3:15pm
Would VP50 convert 1080i to 1080p & then take it to native resolution? In that case I beleive it will make a difference even on 720p displays to some extent though maybe not as big of a difference as with 1080p displays. Hope noise reduction will be added as a firmware upgrade if not already included at the time of release.
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post #39 of 6307
8/19/06 at 4:12pm
I believe the benefit of the VP50 for 1080p and 720p displays depends on how good you think your display is at deinterlacing 1080i. Since broadcast HD is in 1080i (or 720p) and, unless I'm mistaken, current HDDVD and BluRay are also in 1080i then for the "ultimate" picture you'd want the best possible 1080i deinterlacing. If your display can do a good job then you may not find the need to get the VP50. If it doesn't, as is the case of my display, then you look for an outboard scaler. I also think the bigger the display the bigger the potential noticeable difference.

Unfortunately, unless the trade in is HUGE for the VP30 w/abt, the Vp50 is encroaching upon pricing territorities that I'm just uncomfortable with. After buying the iScan HD, VP30, and the abt daughter card on preorders sight unseen, I think I'm going to wait to see just how much better the VP 50 is before jumping in.
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post #40 of 6307
8/19/06 at 4:14pm
Josh,

From what I understand Dale was not apart of the VP30 development. Sooo, I was wondering if he was involved or is still involved in building the VP50 from the ground up?
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post #41 of 6307
8/19/06 at 4:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlemesle View Post

So, this is an other difference between VP50 and VP30 since VP30 faq said that :

Interesting. Perhaps they received clarification of the HDMI licensing agreement which now allows transcoding of low(er) resolution HDMI audio.

This is a much needed feature on the VP50 because it has fewer SPDIF connectors compared to video input connectors.
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post #42 of 6307
8/19/06 at 4:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyN View Post

Josh,

From what I understand Dale was not apart of the VP30 development. Sooo, I was wondering if he was involved or is still involved in building the VP50 from the ground up?

Dale did work/design the basic platform the vp30 was based on about 2 years ago. From what i understand he just doesn't work on finished products anymore but designs the basic elements that others combine into products. I think his work is all over the vp30 and the 102D and im sure the vp50.

One interesting tone if i understand Josh correctly the deinterlacer is still a fpga and unlike the 102D it can be updated by a firmware we can install ourselfs.

Talking about Dale when will he pop in again ? Been awhile its so close to cedia they should allow him out to play with us.

Daniel.
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post #43 of 6307
8/19/06 at 7:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

(1) Were you able to get along without a fan? If so, how much hotter does the VP50 get than the older VPs? Do we need to be extra careful where to place the VP50?

The iScan VP50 does have a temperature controlled fan that is exceptionally quiet. We are well aware that cutting costs to get a cheap noisy fan is an unexceptable solution for many users so we put extra effort into selection of a quiet fan and correct implementation of the fan controller.

Quote:


(2) Are the deinterlacing FPGA algorithms updatable through firmware updates, too (unlike the ABT102 in the VP30)?

Yes, all video processing algorithms in the VP50 are on the FPGAs that are updateable through the serial port.

Quote:


(3) Is a HD-SDI input module technically possible? If yes, is it planned? If no, does the VP50 work together with the Key Digital "Digital Blaster"?

We intend on designing an HD-SDI input module for the VP50. Until, the board is built and tested, we will not announce this as a product.

Quote:


(4) Do the HDMI inputs support *any* resolution in - even unusual resolutions? I'm asking because clips you can download from the internet don't always come in standard resolutions. And when having a media player which is able to output the played content in exactly its native resolution over HDMI, it would be nice to have the VP50 to accept really *any* resolution in.

At release the VP50 will also process all resolutions that the VP30 processes as well as 1080p signals. What resolutions do you get out of your media player?

Quote:


(5) The ABT homepage claims that there'd be noise reduction build into a DVDO device in 2006. Did you revise these plans? I was hoping that they'd make it into the VP50. Is there anything you can say about noise reduction?

I won't comment directly about our product roadmap but I think there are some hints as to the asnwer to this question elsewhere in my answers.

Quote:


(6) I guess the VP50 comes too early for HDMI 1.3? If so, it will probably not be able to handle e.g. Dolby Digital Plus signals coming through HDMI, right? (Probably not too much of a problem, since multi channel PCM can be used instead).

The VP50 is not HDMI 1.3 compliant, and as far as I understand HDMI 1.2a transmitter chips are still not available.

Quote:


(7) Were you able to put any new algorithms into the deinterlacing FPGA? E.g. some way to reduce the 24fps motion judder? Or maybe some improved deinterlacing stuff like 1 pixel motion compensation or something crazy like that?

The VP50 has Progressive Source Input Cadence Detection which means that a cadence can be detected on an a progressive input so that you can achieve a source-locked output. For example, with a source like a 720p broadcast of a movie on ABC, one could output a judder-free 1080p@48Hz
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post #44 of 6307
8/19/06 at 7:36pm
1) Does this processor support 1080/24PsF output, particularly for film based source material?

2) Is it HDMI 1.1 or HDMI 1.2 compliant?
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post #45 of 6307
8/19/06 at 7:42pm
all sounds good Josh, including the fan as I think the VP units need it, thanks for taking great care in working on a good fan setup

HD-SDI, now there is something to get excited over

-Gary
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post #46 of 6307
8/20/06 at 12:31am
First of all, thanks Josh for the detailed answers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh@dvdo View Post

Yes, all video processing algorithms in the VP50 are on the FPGAs that are updateable through the serial port.

Great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh@dvdo View Post

We intend on designing an HD-SDI input module for the VP50. Until, the board is built and tested, we will not announce this as a product.

Good news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh@dvdo View Post

At release the VP50 will also process all resolutions that the VP30 processes as well as 1080p signals. What resolutions do you get out of your media player?

I'm not sure, to be honest, the media player I'm looking for isn't released yet. It's just that I've some videos, mostly music videos, downloaded from the internet. I've just checked, there are resolutions like 480x480, 480x320, 384x288 etc. I'm not sure whether the media player will be able to output these videos in their native resolution over HDMI, but it would be the best solution for max PQ. Otherwise the media player would scale them to 480p and the iScan would scale again. That's also possible, of course, but not so good for PQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh@dvdo View Post

The VP50 has Progressive Source Input Cadence Detection which means that a cadence can be detected on an a progressive input so that you can achieve a source-locked output.

That's very nice!

Three more questions, if you don't mind:

(1) Is the full processing path at >= 10bit now? Or are some parts still in 8bit?

(2) Do you know whether the iScan accepts signals from the "Digital Blaster" (HD-SDI to DVI converter from Key Digital)?

(3) Is Dale still alive? Haven't seen him for quite a while on the forums.

Thanks again!
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post #47 of 6307
8/20/06 at 12:47am
Josh,

Congratulations on yet another fantastic product! Looking forward to seeing it in action!!

Noise reduction sounds very promising. I hope MPEG, macroblock and mosquito find their way into the product specs soon...

madshi,

Dale has been designing algorithms and designs that are going into these products (in particular, the ABT102 and the HD deinterlacer in the VP50).
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post #48 of 6307
8/20/06 at 1:13am
Will the VP50 contain a fix for the "Star Wars Bug"? Dale sounded like he had a fix a few months back so I would hope so.

- Collin
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post #49 of 6307
8/20/06 at 2:32am
I am also very excited about the VP50 (like anyone couldn't tell that ) this is going to be a benchmark unit IMHO

DVDO has the current 480i DI/scaling crown and I bet their 1080i will be just as good

those with 720p displays should be excited also, you can now feed the VP50 all your 1080i sources and you will get the best possible 1080i to 720p conversion process to your display( where you at SOWK )

I think this unit will be a huge hit with the 720p PJ crowd

also If I understand correctly we now get the ability to play 1080i/60hz film sources (D-Theater for example)at 48/72HZ, oh happy day

-Gary
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post #50 of 6307
8/20/06 at 5:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by oferlaor View Post

madshi,

Dale has been designing algorithms and designs that are going into these products (in particular, the ABT102 and the HD deinterlacer in the VP50).

I know. I just haven't seen him posting in the forums for quite a while.
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post #51 of 6307
8/20/06 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh@dvdo View Post

The VP50 is not HDMI 1.3 compliant, and as far as I understand HDMI 1.2a transmitter chips are still not available.

1.2a Tx chips aren't available yet?

That seems weird since 1.3 Rx chips started shipping a few days ago.
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post #52 of 6307
8/20/06 at 9:24am
1.3 are not available in any signifigant numbers and Sony is rumored to be buying them up for the overhyped PS3, also no repeater chips are available or some crap

-Gary
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post #53 of 6307
8/20/06 at 9:36am
Sony is buying all of the blue laser diodes too.

Quote:


Will the VP50 contain a fix for the "Star Wars Bug"?

What I found most interesting was Greg Rogers review of the Marantz VP11S1. He mentioned that both the HQV and Gennum also fail on this sequence. It is listed in the fourth paragraph under "Inverse-Telecine Deinterlacing".
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post #54 of 6307
8/20/06 at 9:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

What I found most interesting is Greg Rogers review of the Marantz VP11S1. He mentioned that both the HQV and Gennum also fail on this sequence.

I missed that, that's truely interesting - thanks!
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post #55 of 6307
8/20/06 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by oferlaor View Post

I hope MPEG, macroblock and mosquito find their way into the product specs soon...

If/when that happens I'll upgrade from the VP30.
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post #56 of 6307
8/20/06 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

1.3 are not available in any signifigant numbers and Sony is rumored to be buying them up for the overhyped PS3, also no repeater chips are available or some crap

-Gary

Sony is buying up the Tx chips ... not the Rx chips.


Regardless, I'm simply stating it seems weird that Rx chips (historically the first to ship) are available for the newest spec ... but Tx or repeater chips are not available for the prior one?

It may be true ... I don't know. I just think it's weird that this would occur.
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post #57 of 6307
8/20/06 at 12:29pm
I'm relaying a question by another poster on another forum (partly because I'd like to know myself as well):

-How come the VP30, VP20 and now VP50 only has one HDMI output?
What about people who have for instance a projector for movie watching and a flat screen TV for TV watching (in the same room)?
Is this somehow a stupid qustion?
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post #58 of 6307
8/20/06 at 12:39pm
Not at all. My next scaler has to have two HDMI outs. I won't settle for less. I think 3,000 is steep if it does not have two HDMI outs...
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post #59 of 6307
8/20/06 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John P. View Post

I'm relaying a question by another poster on another forum (partly because I'd like to know myself as well):

-How come the VP30, VP20 and now VP50 only has one HDMI output?
What about people who have for instance a projector for movie watching and a flat screen TV for TV watching (in the same room)?
Is this somehow a stupid qustion?

Its not but if it needs the same signal its easy to get a hdmi splitter (they run about $500 for 4 outputs). If you want different signals on them it becomes more tricky since that would mean a whole extra video path inside the scaler.

btw i use analog out on a vp30 for my tv and hdmi for my projector so i know where you are coming from.

Daniel.
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post #60 of 6307
8/20/06 at 3:45pm
How about more HDMI inputs also. Four isn't enough.
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