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New DVDO iScan VP50 - Page 12

post #331 of 6314
Does the VP50 do split screen for A/B comparision (left side original / right side processed)?
post #332 of 6314
I glanced at the VP50 manual, and I must say on paper at least this device is VERY impressive. About the only thing that gives me any pause is the lack of 1080/24PsF output, which I need, but other than that the user interface and abilities seem superb, at least from what I can read and discern from others reports. The price point is excellent as well.

If I was certain of 1080/24PsF output support I would be VERY tempted to order one now. I'm still wondering how the deinterlacing will hold up to Realta's but from reports on the ABT102 card it seems its very competitive, better in some ways perhaps a bit worse in a few others but clearly competitive. This really seems to be a top notch video processor at a very very attractive price.
post #333 of 6314
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

AFAIK the iScans can already auto switch between 50Hz and 60Hz output. But I think a multiply-of-24 output is not yet supported for auto switching (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). It would make a lot of sense, though, IMHO. I'd really like to have this feature.

There's one complication, though: If the iScan switches back and forth between video and movie mode very often, the output refresh rate would change everytime. That could result in the display having to resync everytime. But I think that could be "solved" by switching to another refresh rate only when either video or movie mode has been active for at least 10 seconds without interruption or something like that.

There is not a mode like this currently implemented on the iScans. I was using an Optoma H79 for a little while and I know that it would always need to re-sync when I change the frame rate between 48Hz and 60Hz. One potential issue, I can see with this being done automatically, is that you may be watching commercials and a movie trailer kicks the iScan into "multiple-of-24" mode and then the commercial is finished and it takes 10 seconds for the iScan to switch back, and you have judder for 10 seconds plus the amount of time it may take for the display to re-sync. Although, I think this would make sense if the output frame rate was switched to a "multiple-of-24" when the user selects "Film Bias" mode for deinterlacing.
post #334 of 6314
Quote:
Originally Posted by assJack1 View Post

Does the VP50 do split screen for A/B comparision (left side original / right side processed)?

Nope. The sort of processing the VP50 does is not really amenable to this sort of comparison. Note that there's no image processing / noise reduction engine. Besides gamma and basic picture controls the main thing this device does is deinterlace and scale. For instance you can't send a 480i signal to one half a display and a 1080p signal to the other half.

- Collin
post #335 of 6314
Josh (of DVDO),
I think there is a typo is the comparison chart. It lists the VP50 as having 2 analog pair of inputs, but a picture of the back panel shows (alas) only the one L/R pair.
post #336 of 6314
Thread Starter 
escon - You are correct. This will be corrected tomorrow.
post #337 of 6314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh@dvdo View Post

There is not a mode like this currently implemented on the iScans. I was using an Optoma H79 for a little while and I know that it would always need to re-sync when I change the frame rate between 48Hz and 60Hz. One potential issue, I can see with this being done automatically, is that you may be watching commercials and a movie trailer kicks the iScan into "multiple-of-24" mode and then the commercial is finished and it takes 10 seconds for the iScan to switch back, and you have judder for 10 seconds plus the amount of time it may take for the display to re-sync. Although, I think this would make sense if the output frame rate was switched to a "multiple-of-24" when the user selects "Film Bias" mode for deinterlacing.

You're right, I didn't think of commercials. Good thought. Hmmmmm... Also: What output refresh rate should the iScan use if there are video mode overlays over the movie?

My pay TV channels don't have any commercials in the midst of the movie, though, and no video mode overlays, either. So for my pay TV channels having an automatic "multiple-of-24" switching mode would be nice. For HD-DVD and BluRay it might be nice, too, although I'm not sure whether there'll be much video content on HD-DVD and BluRay. So maybe setting it to forced 24fps output would work, too.

P.S: I've another idea how the 10 second delay could be solved: When the iScan detects a change between video and film mode, it could change output refresh rate at once. But in this moment the iScan could set an internal flag. As long as this flag is set, the iScan should not change output refresh rate, anymore, no matter what video/film mode detection sais. The flag should be cleared when there's 10 second straight of either film or video mode. This should get rid of unnessecary delays. Additionally, it would be nice if the iScan noticed itself if it's constantly switching between video/film mode for a longer time. In that case it should switch into 60fps output, cause in such a situation 60fps should be the better fit. Complicated...
post #338 of 6314
VP50 with UK Sky
I currently have an Iscan HD+ and I know that you can't really use the 'film' mode with sky because the mpeg 2 compression that sky uses merges frames together.

my query is: Will the VP50 handle this mpeg compression better than my HD+ ? i.e. will I see an improvement with film mode when watching a film on sky?

p.s I think it was someone from DVDO who came to the conclusion about the compression issue last year when analysising a Coronation Street (corrie) clip they were sent.
post #339 of 6314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh@dvdo View Post

There is not a mode like this currently implemented on the iScans. I was using an Optoma H79 for a little while and I know that it would always need to re-sync when I change the frame rate between 48Hz and 60Hz. One potential issue, I can see with this being done automatically, is that you may be watching commercials and a movie trailer kicks the iScan into "multiple-of-24" mode and then the commercial is finished and it takes 10 seconds for the iScan to switch back, and you have judder for 10 seconds plus the amount of time it may take for the display to re-sync. Although, I think this would make sense if the output frame rate was switched to a "multiple-of-24" when the user selects "Film Bias" mode for deinterlacing.

I guess that's already feasible for we 50Hz bods, as "Film Bias" and a Display Profile are both tied to an input res, and 60Hz R1 DVDs are nearly always film, while most video stuff we'd pick up is 50Hz. Probly.
post #340 of 6314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris5 View Post

VP50 with UK Sky
I currently have an Iscan HD+ and I know that you can't really use the 'film' mode with sky because the mpeg 2 compression that sky uses merges frames together.

my query is: Will the VP50 handle this mpeg compression better than my HD+ ? i.e. will I see an improvement with film mode when watching a film on sky?

p.s I think it was someone from DVDO who came to the conclusion about the compression issue last year when analysising a Coronation Street (corrie) clip they were sent.

Isn't Corrie video though? And how did they get sent the clip in native format? It's encrypted?
post #341 of 6314
yes Corrie is video, but it still goes throught the same mpeg encoder, that messed up the frames.

I don't know how the source file was created, I would think it was sourced from RGBs back then
post #342 of 6314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The VP30 never dropped down to 540p. That's a misunderstanding of its field scaling process. With the VP30, each 1920x540 interlaced field is interpolated to 1920x1080, with a vertical offset to account for the position shift between even fields and odd fields. Therefore, no resolution is lost. All of the original 1920x1080 pixels are present in their previous interlaced pattern. .

The real importance is the offset aka stagger. Without the offset the original scan lines always land ini the odd rows and the interpolated scan lines always land in the even rows and the resolution of 1080i source material will then never be more than 540 vertically. Without the offset, 1080i is being treated as if it were 540p.

I always thought that "the" "bob" method of "de-interlacing" included the offset. Much of the time (see below for the exception) all of the picture detail will be distinguishable although softened.

All bob methods will fail the alternating black and white scan line de-interlacing test which by definition is constructed from alternating solid black and solid white fields. Two field bob with or without offset will show a solid flickering gray while one field bob (really throwing away half the resolution) will show either solid black or solid white.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh@dvdo View Post

you may be watching commercials and a movie trailer kicks the iScan into "multiple-of-24" mode and then the commercial is finished and it takes 10 seconds for the iScan to switch back, and you have judder for 10 seconds plus the amount of time it may take for the display to re-sync. .

Do many (or any) displays resync. to a changed frame rate suddenly coming from the video processor without a noticeable stutter at the moment of switching?

Is judder from 60 fps video converted to 72 or 48 fps enough of a non-problem so that output frame rate from the VP50 can remain as a manual selection to be done once before the movie starts?
post #343 of 6314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris5 View Post

yes Corrie is video, but it still goes throught the same mpeg encoder, that messed up the frames.

I don't know how the source file was created, I would think it was sourced from RGBs back then

Chris5, you are talking rubbish mate. The MPEG-2 of Sky SD and MPEG-4 of Sky HD doesn't mess up frames at all. It carries video sources (50 fields per second) and film sources (25 frames per second) perfectly well, and can be deinterlaced by anything; it's worked perfectly fine for me with iScan Pro, Ultra, HD, VP30, Lumagen, etc.

StooMonster
post #344 of 6314
Quote:
Originally Posted by StooMonster View Post

Chris5, you are talking rubbish mate. The MPEG-2 of Sky SD and MPEG-4 of Sky HD doesn't mess up frames at all. It carries video sources (50 fields per second) and film sources (25 frames per second) perfectly well, and can be deinterlaced by anything; it's worked perfectly fine for me with iScan Pro, Ultra, HD, VP30, Lumagen, etc.r

Sourcing from RGsB, RGBS, etc. won't hurt. What counts is whether noise in any analog portion of the processing or the MPEG encoding and decoding causes paired fields and also the first and third fields in 3-2 pulldown threesomes to not have enough sameness which in turns causes the processor to go to video mode.
post #345 of 6314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris5 View Post

VP50 with UK Sky
I currently have an Iscan HD+ and I know that you can't really use the 'film' mode with sky because the mpeg 2 compression that sky uses merges frames together.

Reading your original post here, the reason you can't use FILM mode on Sky is because the broadcast channels are a mix of VIDEO and FILM. e.g. movies are FILM, studio based programmes and sport are VIDEO, American dramas are FILM, channel idents are FILM as are most adverts, or FILM with VIDEO overlayed.

This is why iScans have 'AUTO' mode, this uses cadence detection to switch the iScan from processing FILM or VIDEO which require different techniques to deinterlace.

StooMonster
post #346 of 6314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Jayne View Post

Sourcing from RGsB, RGBS, etc. won't hurt. What counts is whether noise in any analog portion of the processing or the MPEG encoding and decoding causes paired fields and also the first and third fields in 3-2 pulldown threesomes to not have enough sameness which in turns causes the processor to go to video mode.

There is no 3:2 pulldown and pairing of first and third fields in UK, it's 50Hz and 2:2 pulldown.

StooMonster
post #347 of 6314
I had problems getting my order in over the weekend for the $400 avs special, but I called today and over the phone got the order taken care of. Even a somewhat vague hint that "a lot of interest" has been expressed from both consumer/pro camps for the hd/sdi. Kewl.

Now just wait, watch with the vp30, and then play with the 50 when it comes. Must say very impressed with ABT/DVDO.
post #348 of 6314
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

You're right, I didn't think of commercials. Good thought. Hmmmmm...

In UK almost all commercials are 25 frames per second FILM sourced, or at least video that has had 'film effect' filter applied in post-production. So works okay for us!

StooMonster
post #349 of 6314
Stoo
Ignoring your dismissive comment, I remember Dale saying it was something to do with the material in the foreground changing/moving (as it should) but due to mpeg compression the background did not change, fooling the the HD+ to do a 2:2 pulldown when it should not. something like that anyway.

I've searched for the original link, but can't find it, presumably it was so long ago
post #350 of 6314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris5 View Post

Stoo
Ignoring your dismissive comment, I remember Dale saying it was something to do with the material in the foreground changing/moving (as it should) but due to mpeg compression the background did not change, fooling the the HD+ to do a 2:2 pulldown when it should not. something like that anyway.

I've searched for the original link, but can't find it, presumably it was so long ago

To be fair, you'd expect little else from ITV
post #351 of 6314
anyway....
going back to my original query. will film mode on the VP50 be any more usable when watching a film on sky than the HD+, or not?
post #352 of 6314
Wasn't supposed to be flippant mate, I find film on Sky looks absolutely great on the vp30 if that's any help.

Since the abt102 (and presumably the equivalent on the vp50) can mix modes in a single frame, I can't see the situation you described causing problems.

I just don't think using video Corrie capped however it's capped to be a useful point of reference.
post #353 of 6314
uzun,

24fps output is not that great. If there's any cadence loss you get judder. I seem to remember seeing a 24fps genlock option on a VP50 demo. I might be wrong.

Stoo,

I've seen some really strange behavior on encoders. Encoders that don't pay attention to cadence can definitely cause interlacing issues where part of the image is one cadence whereas the other is another cadence. I'm not sure if that is what you were talking about, but it's an issue that has gotten worse as encoders got smarter. Soccer matches are where you see this behavior - different areas of the grass are changing cadence, not because they were filmed that way but because the encoder is wreaking havoc.
post #354 of 6314
24fps works quite well on the Lumagen, its true you get a momentary cadence loss every once in a while, but most HDTV movies and almost all newer DVD's have no such loss. If the material is problematic I switch back to 60hz.

But for the most part, using 1080/24PsF on the Lumagen to my Qualia 004, I dont get any loss of cadence during the film. When it does occur it generally corrects quickly, within one second.

I can't speak for the DVDO product but I suspect it operates in a similar manner in 24hz mode. If the source stream is clean its great, but even when it loses cadence it probably gets it back pretty quick.
post #355 of 6314
Quote:
Originally Posted by GerryWaz View Post

Any one have problems ordering the VP50 upgrade via the AVS link here in the sticky?

I tried yesterday to take advantage of the $400 special before it expires today, along with trading in my VP30/ABT102.

I correctly entered my info and after submitting the order, got an error that my Mastercard has an expiration date problem (I had entered it correctly and my card is just fine, which I also later verified). I went back to the form, rechecked everything and then resubmitted. Then I got a duplicate transaction error message.

Not sure where I stand. Sent an e-mail to sales @dvdo.com but don't expect a response before Monday. Hope they still honor the $400 special.

Ahh the joys of online ordering . . .

Update--turns out my credit card company denied the charge during the online processing of my upgrade order for the VP50. I called them (the credit card company) about something else today and up popped a message about a denied charge, which I told them to let go through. They said DVDO should just re-submit or I should re-order.

I contacted DVDO with a follow-up e-mail explaining what had happened and if they should re-submit or I should re-order.

Got a quick note back from DVDO saying they'll re-submit manually so I could get the $400 discount, which had expired last night.

As usual, great service from DVDO for their customers. THANKS!

- Gerry
post #356 of 6314
dvdo is a class act.

I had problems ordering online last night too with the cc thing.

dvdo took care of me today. vp50 ordered via phone.

way to go dvdo!
post #357 of 6314
thanks to dvdo and Jason for working out the discount too.
post #358 of 6314
"Update--turns out my credit card company denied the charge during the online processing of my upgrade order for the VP50. I called them (the credit card company) about something else today and up popped a message about a denied charge, which I told them to let go through. They said DVDO should just re-submit or I should re-order."


As info Chase Bank denied my credit card transaction on Thursday the 24th. They stopped all transactions on my card at that time. I found out about it when I went to dinner Sunday night and my card was rejected. I had to leave the restaurant and go to an ATM to get money. When I called Chase today they said they telephoned me on the 24th. I did not get a call. This is also why on Friday April at Anchorbaytech said she didn't have my order. It is also why I could not do an order on Saturday the 26th. I cancelled my card of 8 years today.
post #359 of 6314
Hai,

Amazing how many problems with cc cards, The way this is handled is not that speciial
is it ? I can't see how dvdo created a stress test for them weird.

Daniel.
post #360 of 6314
my transaction went through fine. but the cc company did call me to verify that I did actually make the purchase online.
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