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Just Got the Toshiba 62HM196 (First Impressions) - Page 3

post #61 of 343
Has any else compared the 195 series to the 196 series?

One major complaint I had about the 195 series is the amount of SSE in the picture.

Does the 196 sereis do anything to address this?
post #62 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjlawson View Post

Has any else compared the 195 series to the 196 series?

One major complaint I had about the 195 series is the amount of SSE in the picture.

Does the 196 sereis do anything to address this?

Just brought the 196 home to replace my old 52hmx94. I've only seen, what I think was SSE, on the Tonight Show (Jay Leno). It was very bad on the deep blacks. Other colors/stations were fine though. SSE?
post #63 of 343
er... make that the 62mx196 that I'm speaking of.... sorry.
post #64 of 343
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerastan View Post

Just brought the 196 home to replace my old 52hmx94. I've only seen, what I think was SSE, on the Tonight Show (Jay Leno). It was very bad on the deep blacks. Other colors/stations were fine though. SSE?

I haven't noticed any yet and I've been very careful looking at black levels.
post #65 of 343
Quote:


I could imagine several calibrators on here push Samsung for 2 reasons.
(1) It is the display they own, and best know how to calibrate
(2) They encourage AVS members to buy them so they CAN calibrate them

1. So tell me. why do these calibration profressionals own Samsungs?
2. Yeah right, no way these guys could calibrate other vendor's sets.
post #66 of 343
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD View Post

1. So tell me. why do these calibration profressionals own Samsungs?
2. Yeah right, no way these guys could calibrate other vendor's sets.

A Samsung owner weighs in. I owned both and the Samsung was returned. End of story.
post #67 of 343
Quote:


A Samsung owner weighs in. I owned both and the Samsung was returned. End of story.


You are right I am a Samsung owner. It's a great set. I have not owned a Tosh DLP. but did own a couple of their RPTVs several years ago. One being a Runco modified 65H80. Good sets.

The post that I responded to implies that Eliab and other calibrators are being less then objective in their assessment for business reasons. I don't believe this is the case. Just like you and I, these guys can own any TV they want and they would get paid the same calibration fee regardless of the make. I doubt that they would own the Samsung if they didn't think it was the best.

I am enjoying reading this thread and your comments. I had seen the Toshibas and they look pretty good to me. I will check them out more closely the next time I am in the stores,

Glad you are enjoying your set. That's what it's all about.
post #68 of 343
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD View Post

You are right I am a Samsung owner. It's a great set. I have not owned a Tosh DLP. but did own a couple of their RPTVs several years ago. One being a Runco modified 65H80. Good sets.

The post that I responded to implies that Eliab and other calibrators are being less then objective in there assessment for business reasons. I don't believe this is the case. Just like you and I, these guys can own any TV they want and they would get paid the same calibration fee regardless of the make. I doubt that they would own the Samsung if they didn't think it was the best.

I am enjoying reading this thread and your comments. I had seen the Toshibas and they look pretty good to me. I will check them out more closely the next time I am in the stores,

Glad you are enjoying your set. That's what it's all about.


That's exactly right. I had really wanted to like the Samsung but the Toshiba just suited what I look for better. Hope you enjoy your set as well.
post #69 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou View Post

There is a very large difference. A buddy with the A20 and A10 stopped by today. He sat for 1 movie then went off to buy the Toshiba. His Sonys are for sale.

I bought the Costco version of the 62HM196 Friday (62HM116 at Costco..same tv exactly). WOW! I have a one year old Sony 50 inch A-10. The Toshiba blows it away. I am really amazed at the overall quality of image on this tv, especially considering its huge size. It does blacks very well...best I have seen on any micro-display type RPTV. Even in a totally dark room, black is very nearly true black, with only the slightest hint of glow to it. In a scene with any bright areas black looks inky black. Shadow detail is far better than on the Sony A-10 even with it's dynamic iris on MED, and the Tosh doesn't have to use that annoying dynamic iris like the Sony (which helps shadow detail on the Sony, but causes constant obvious, and annoying shifts in screen brightness). If the Tosh is using an iris, it's action is not detectable at all.

The colors on the Tosh are very natural looking, and skin tones are much better than I could achieve on the Sony even after doing the red push fix. I dialed the color on the Tosh down to about 42, set color temp to warm, set the bulb on low power, and things look really nice. This tv seems to require far less messing with controls to get a nice image than any tv I have owned.

I have a Sony upconvert DVD player set to output at 1080i through HDMI. "Pearl Harbor" looks suprisingly stunning played on the Tosh. It looks 75% as good as some HD prime time shows (the less stunning ones of course). No videophile will confuse it with HD, but it looks better than on any tv I ever played it on, in spite of the fact that this Tosh is by far the biggest set I have owned.

Now the downside...I am seeing the dreaded rainbow effect on this set more often than I would like. I am going to have to try to adjust to that, and stop moving my eyes around so much. The sheer size of this set takes some getting used to also. I tried sitting about 10 feet from it...and in spite of all the gurus guidelines this did not work for me. Things move around the screen too fast for me at that distance. At 12 feet it feels huge, but more comfortable.

I am really hoping that my eyes can adjust to the rainbow issues on this set. Except for that issue I am 100% satisfied that I got one of the best PQ RPTV's out there, at a great price, and with the most generous return policy you could ever find. I think this set holds its own against Samsung 1080p's and Sony SXRD, and is a better value than either. (We have to hope Tosh has put the bulb issues behind them, but Samsung and Sony have had other issues galore also).

I will keep the forum updated on how things go with this set. Any input from others is appreciated.
post #70 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjlawson View Post

Has any else compared the 195 series to the 196 series?

One major complaint I had about the 195 series is the amount of SSE in the picture.

Does the 196 sereis do anything to address this?

i would say it has SSE similar to other RPTV's...yes it is there. I find that if I don't think about I don't notice it....but the more you think about it the more you see it on this type of TV. If SSE bothers you a lot you need to check out the new MITS 831 series that should be out this month. They are supposed to have a new type screen that reduces SSE...time will tell if it's true.
post #71 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

i would say it has SSE similar to other RPTV's...yes it is there. I find that if I don't think about I don't notice it....but the more you think about it the more you see it on this type of TV. If SSE bothers you a lot you need to check out the new MITS 831 series that should be out this month. They are supposed to have a new type screen that reduces SSE...time will tell if it's true.

Toshiba is replacing my HM195 with a brand new HM196. I tried to get a refund but they would not let me. The SSE on the HM195 was pretty bad. It was a lot worse then the Samsung and HP DLP's that I had. The Mitsu's sound like they are going to be awsome. I might sell my Toshiba DLP and stand then upgrade to the Mitsu. I figured I would get the most money for it since it will be brand new in the box.
post #72 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjlawson View Post

Toshiba is replacing my HM195 with a brand new HM196. I tried to get a refund but they would not let me. The SSE on the HM195 was pretty bad. It was a lot worse then the Samsung and HP DLP's that I had. The Mitsu's sound like they are going to be awsome. I might sell my Toshiba DLP and stand then upgrade to the Mitsu. I figured I would get the most money for it since it will be brand new in the box.

The SSE on the 196 TOSH is very similar to Samsung 87/88 and Sony A-2000. I viewed them all in a row, and there was not much difference. Given a good feed, all 3 had great, and quite comparable PQ too. But if you hate SSE, you won't be happy with any of these tv's. Maybe the MITS will solve your issue...if not you better look at plasma. Thankfully I bought mine at Costco, and can get a full refund anytime I am not satisfied..even after 3 years or more!
post #73 of 343
Anyone, who thinks the picture from this Toshiba is great, OOTB, or can be properly adjusted, without calibration (color analyzer for gray-scale), is limited on their knowledge to evaluate a good accurate picture.

I have only done a few 195s, however the factory Warm color temperature on all were over 10000K and some points over 15000K. Default Black-levels set way to low, no black detail. SSE exists in all its glory (BTW, SSE becomes visible in bright scenes, not dark. It is a result of the texture of the surface of the screen to achieve gain to help with screen luminance uniformity). Issues in the dark scenes is usually dithering or posterizing. Even if Toshiba has improved their factory color temperature settings, doubtful it was much (they still target the showroom), the TV needs Grayscale calibration.

With the 195s, calibration controls are minimal, almost non-existent, (one reason calibrators like Samsungs), I'm not sure about the 196s. Color decoder adjustment is definitely an issue, no adjustment. With the 195s I have done, the grayscale dialed in fairly close to D65, with delta E about 0 to 5 from 20 IRE to 100 IRE. With black levels set for proper detail, the TV performed similar to most micro-displays. SSE is the major thing I can't live with. Black levels can be enhanced, with some bias/ambient light to increase the perceived black level. The TV is bright enough to handle this.

The ideal situation with this TV is to add a Lumagen video processor with the ISF Calibration. There are so many calibration adjustments provided in the Lumagen, you will be amazed at the results. One major feature is four user memories for each input, you can now have Day/Night/xx/yy calibrated viewing modes.
post #74 of 343
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Anyone, who thinks the picture from this Toshiba is great, OOTB, or can be properly adjusted, without calibration (color analyzer for gray-scale), is limited on their knowledge to evaluate a good accurate picture.

I have only done a few 195s, however the factory Warm color temperature on all were over 10000K and some points over 15000K. Default Black-levels set way to low, no black detail. SSE exists in all its glory (BTW, SSE becomes visible in bright scenes, not dark. It is a result of the texture of the surface of the screen to achieve gain to help with screen luminance uniformity). Issues in the dark scenes is usually dithering or posterizing. Even if Toshiba has improved their factory color temperature settings, doubtful it was much (they still target the showroom), the TV needs Grayscale calibration.

With the 195s, calibration controls are minimal, almost non-existent, (one reason calibrators like Samsungs), I'm not sure about the 196s. Color decoder adjustment is definitely an issue, no adjustment. With the 195s I have done, the grayscale dialed in fairly close to D65, with delta E about 0 to 5 from 20 IRE to 100 IRE. With black levels set for proper detail, the TV performed similar to most micro-displays. SSE is the major thing I can't live with. Black levels can be enhanced, with some bias/ambient light to increase the perceived black level. The TV is bright enough to handle this.

The ideal situation with this TV is to add a Lumagen video processor with the ISF Calibration. There are so many calibration adjustments provided in the Lumagen, you will be amazed at the results. One major feature is four user memories for each input, you can now have Day/Night/xx/yy calibrated viewing modes.

The 196 is a different beast and until you've done one there's not much you can contribute. I calibrated mine yesterday and OOB and post calibration are not nearly as far off as the 195 series were. Let us know after you've done one how it went.
post #75 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Anyone, who thinks the picture from this Toshiba is great, OOTB, or can be properly adjusted, without calibration (color analyzer for gray-scale), is limited on their knowledge to evaluate a good accurate picture.

I have only done a few 195s, however the factory Warm color temperature on all were over 10000K and some points over 15000K. Default Black-levels set way to low, no black detail. SSE exists in all its glory (BTW, SSE becomes visible in bright scenes, not dark. It is a result of the texture of the surface of the screen to achieve gain to help with screen luminance uniformity). Issues in the dark scenes is usually dithering or posterizing. Even if Toshiba has improved their factory color temperature settings, doubtful it was much (they still target the showroom), the TV needs Grayscale calibration.

With the 195s, calibration controls are minimal, almost non-existent, (one reason calibrators like Samsungs), I'm not sure about the 196s. Color decoder adjustment is definitely an issue, no adjustment. With the 195s I have done, the grayscale dialed in fairly close to D65, with delta E about 0 to 5 from 20 IRE to 100 IRE. With black levels set for proper detail, the TV performed similar to most micro-displays. SSE is the major thing I can't live with. Black levels can be enhanced, with some bias/ambient light to increase the perceived black level. The TV is bright enough to handle this.

The ideal situation with this TV is to add a Lumagen video processor with the ISF Calibration. There are so many calibration adjustments provided in the Lumagen, you will be amazed at the results. One major feature is four user memories for each input, you can now have Day/Night/xx/yy calibrated viewing modes.

Calibration could no doubt improve the overall PQ on this TV, but I think the vast majority could live with it right of the box...I certainly can. I would not even consider having it calibrated unless it was done for free. I don't even like the look of the warm color temp that meets 'standards', so while this set technically runs too cool set at WARM, I find the image very pleasing. I never adjusted any of my sets to meet the 6500K standard anyhow..shame on me! The black levels are quite nice for this type of set...even in a totally dark room. SSE is there, and a bit irritating, but I can overlook it. The Ultimate AV reviewer noted similar issues with the set but still gave it high praise. It is far superior to the Sony A-10, and a great value. Sorry about my 'limited knowledge', but I am enjoying this set a lot, except for the rainbow effect. Ignorance is bliss.
post #76 of 343
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post



Calibration could no doubt improve the overall PQ on this TV, but I think the vast majority could live with it right of the box...I certainly can. I would not even consider having it calibrated unless it was done for free. I don't even like the look of the warm color temp that meets 'standards', so while this set technically runs too cool set at WARM, I find the image very pleasing. I never adjusted any of my sets to meet the 6500K standard anyhow..shame on me! The black levels are quite nice for this type of set...even in a totally dark room. SSE is there, and a bit irritating, but I can overlook it. The Ultimate AV reviewer noted similar issues with the set but still gave it high praise. It is far superior to the Sony A-10, and a great value. Sorry about my 'limited knowledge', but I am enjoying this set a lot, except for the rainbow effect. Ignorance is bliss.


If he didn't push D65 he'd be out of business. . MANY people have been brainwashed that a calibration has to be done on large TVs. If I couldn't do it myself I would never waste the money and another cottage industry would go away.
post #77 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou View Post

If he didn't push D65 he'd be out of business. . MANY people have been brainwashed that a calibration has to be done on large TVs. If I couldn't do it myself I would never waste the money and another cottage industry would go away.

Care to share how you got in the service menu, what you changed, and how it improved the PQ? This thing is pretty darn nice as is! (except for RBE..ugh)
post #78 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou View Post

Respect yours as well but Eliab is not the final word on TV quality and it's strange how he so vociferously pushes the Samsung. I've talked to two different calibrators who strongly disagree with him.

Really? Please invite whomever is strongly in disagreement with my assessment of Samsung HL-S DLP displays as being able to get setup to SMPTE system standards more closely than any other current RPTV in the market to discuss this with me publicly. I'd like to know which display(s) they think do a better job, how are they quantifying their findings and what instrumentation they are using. I'm also curious to know how they're approaching the Samsung HL-S.

Eliab
post #79 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou View Post

Digitized was exactly the impression I got. Simply didn't look film-like in any way and HD looked far too artificial rather than like a window. I get the impression because one calibrator has been pushing them like crazy here that a lot have jumped on the bandwagon. I found it to be a very subpar product and returned it.

In your defense, I will say that Samsung HL-S DLP displays look aweful out of the box. I've said so many times. And while it's also true that they'll never approach the level of performance that they're capable of without a properly performed calibration, they can still be made to look very impressive if they're setup properly within the user menu. Here are my recommended starter settings.

Digital NR - OFF
DNIe - Off
Mode - Movie
Contrast - 40
Brightness - 45
Sharpness - 0
Color - 45
Tint - G50/R50
Color Tone - Warm2

I then always suggest performing a DVE user-level calibration to get an even more accurate picture.

Another often overlooked component to acquiring a quality image is the associated gear, the way they're connected, and the viewing environment.

What settings were you using on your Samsung? Which DVD player do you own? How is it connected? How far away from the screen are you sitting? What's your viewing environment like?

Eliab
post #80 of 343
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

Really? Please invite whomever is strongly in disagreement with my assessment of Samsung HL-S DLP displays as being able to get setup to SMPTE system standards more closely than any other current RPTV in the market to discuss this with me publicly. I'd like to know which display(s) they think do a better job, how are they quantifying their findings and what instrumentation they are using. I'm also curious to know how they're approaching the Samsung HL-S.

Eliab

Little defensive Eli? PM me your email address and I'll see if they wish to contact you.
Not sure they'd have an interest in a "measuring contest" as they have no need to solicit jobs on forums but I'll pass it on to them.
post #81 of 343
D65 is real, a fact, it is a point on the CIE color chart and it is the standard used when movies are mastered. The brainwashing has been from the manufacturers forcing color temperature deviations upon consumers to generate sales. One that doesn't like D65, generally has been brainwashed or conditioned to believe what they are watching is right (some just don't handle change very well).

In general when calibration, color temperature and gray-scale are discussed in reviews, forums or wherever, D65 is the primary (movie/film) reference standard. Anyone can decide they don't like the WB at D65, it is their preference. You can set color temp at 17000K, but you cannot say the picture looks or is natural or realistic. If you don't think small differences in color shade is important, just watch someone at the cosmetics counter, selecting a lipstick color. Reproduction of flesh tones has been a long time issue. We see people, outside, in daylight all the time and getting those, realistic, flesh tones accurately reproduced on TV, has always been difficult. One of the biggest culprits has been red push. The resultant necessary corrective action taken by the TV manufacturer, to compensate for intentional deviation from D65 in factory color temperatures. Cool for Torch mode, targeting uninformed customers, those who think, the brightest picture is the best picture.
post #82 of 343
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

D65 is real, a fact, it is a point on the CIE color chart and it is the standard used when movies are mastered. The brainwashing has been from the manufacturers forcing color temperature deviations upon consumers to generate sales. One that doesn't like D65, generally has been brainwashed or conditioned to believe what they are watching is right (some just don't handle change very well).

In general when calibration, color temperature and gray-scale are discussed in reviews, forums or wherever, D65 is the primary (movie/film) reference standard. Anyone can decide they don't like the WB at D65, it is their preference. You can set color temp at 17000K, but you cannot say the picture looks or is natural or realistic. If you don't think small differences in color shade is important, just watch someone at the cosmetics counter, selecting a lipstick color. Reproduction of flesh tones has been a long time issue. We see people, outside, in daylight all the time and getting those, realistic, flesh tones accurately reproduced on TV, has always been difficult. One of the biggest culprits has been red push. The resultant necessary corrective action taken by the TV manufacturer, to compensate for intentional deviation from D65 in factory color temperatures. Cool for Torch mode, targeting uninformed customers, those who think, the brightest picture is the best picture.

Yes Glen I am sure everyone here is aware of "torch mode" and how to at least rudimentarily tame it. Microdisplays in general deviate from D65 more than CRT RPTVs did and yet people seem to prefer it. I have mine set at D65 but many people find it intolerable.
post #83 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou View Post

Little defensive Eli? PM me your email address and I'll see if they wish to contact you.
Not sure they'd have an interest in a "measuring contest" as they have no need to solicit jobs on forums but I'll pass it on to them.

If an individual is bold enough to adamantly state on a public home theater forum what a display can and cannot do, they should be able to support their remarks with quantifiable data. I can do this in two respects. 1) With readings taken from reference grade instrumentation and their adherence to SMPTE standards and 2) by my willingness to showoff my fully calibrated Samsung HL-S5088W DLP display.

I'm not interested in talking to anyone about this privately as it would serve no purpose. Since you stated that there are at least two other calibrators that disagree with the data that we've compiled regarding Samsung HL-S displays, I would think that they would be eager to share their findings with the forum crowd. I'm never too proud to learn something about these displays that the 400 hours in a lab with them hadn't revealed.

Eliab
post #84 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

I could imagine several calibrators on here push Samsung for 2 reasons.
(1) It is the display they own, and best know how to calibrate

This can certainly be true in many cases.

Quote:


(2) They encourage AVS members to buy them so they CAN calibrate them

Probably some validity here as well.

Quote:


We must remember guys that work on cars all have differing opinions as well. Some like Ford, some say Ford stinks and GM is best, others love Toyotas. The same thing applies to tv's.

Here, I would disagree. There are very specific objective standards that a display manufacturer ought to abide by.

Quote:


Opinions from even knowledgeable people will vary greatly.

Not if they're keenly familiar with SMPTE system standards in regards to display performance.

Quote:


I don't think there is a 'bad' 1080P RPTV out there.

It depends on how you're using the term "bad."

Quote:


It is splitting hairs to call a winner....most people would find ANY of them quite nice.

You may be right about the "most people would find any of them quite nice." However, most people would probably find the better display as being a little "nicer." On the other hand, most people would probably not spend a holiday posting on a forum like this because picture quality on their displays isn't so important to them as it is to us.

But seriously, it would probably have been impossible for me to do what I do for a living if I hadn't treated my clients with the same level of customer service in which I would like to have been treated with. That service extends before the calibration by advising my potential clients on what is the current best display for their budget. There was a time when I was recommending Pioneer RPTVs. There was another time when Mitsubishi RPTVs were hot. And yet other times it was Toshiba. The same can be said about DVD players.

The point is, I recommend what I have surmised to be the single best display - overall, and after calibration - for that particular time. Currently, that is Samsung. However, that doesn't mean that they're better in every respect and that they don't have their own set of issues (like any other display)!

Eliab
post #85 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou View Post

Yes Glen I am sure everyone here is aware of "torch mode" and how to at least rudimentarily tame it. Microdisplays in general deviate from D65 more than CRT RPTVs did and yet people seem to prefer it. I have mine set at D65 but many people find it intolerable.

And what reference/instrument did you use to achieve D65?
post #86 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou View Post

Yes Glen I am sure everyone here is aware of "torch mode" and how to at least rudimentarily tame it. Microdisplays in general deviate from D65 more than CRT RPTVs did and yet people seem to prefer it. I have mine set at D65 but many people find it intolerable.

That depends. If you are referring to a properly calibrated CRT direct-view monitor, than I might agree. But most CRT RPTVs were not capable of maintaining as linear a grayscale to D6500 (.313 .329) than many Microdisplays actually.

Eliab
post #87 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

The samsung is brighter and looks nice but those black levels are wanting. Not to mention in my opinion it doesn't compare to the Panny plasmas which is on my list.

As far as plasma panels are concerned, I like the Pannies a lot. However, black level on a Samsung - when properly adjusted - is actually better and less noisy.

Eliab
post #88 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

Tint - G50/R50
Color Tone - Warm2

Does this mean set tint to 0, or are you referring to a service menu adjustment? If the latter, can you explain how that is achieved in the service menu? On the former, I find myself that Tint of 8-10 gives more accurate colors, but will have to verify that when my DVE arrives.

There doesn't seem to be a "Warm2" setting in the 196 sets.

Edit: Sorry, I relaized you were referring to the Sammys after I posted this.
post #89 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD View Post

1. So tell me. why do these calibration profressionals own Samsungs?

Because when calibrated properly, nothing that is currently available will abide by SMPTE system standards as closely.

Quote:


2. Yeah right, no way these guys could calibrate other vendor's sets.

It is next to impossible to earn a living as an ISF calibrationist if one only works on one type of display. For what it's worth, a Toshiba DLP display ranks as one of the most straightforward to work on. A Samsung DLP is a nightmare by comparison!

Eliab
post #90 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by epsilon View Post

Does this mean set tint to 0, or are you referring to a service menu adjustment? If the latter, can you explain how that is achieved in the service menu? On the former, I find myself that Tint of 8-10 gives more accurate colors, but will have to verify that when my DVE arrives.

They should be kept in the center and there is no phase control in the service menu.

Quote:


There doesn't seem to be a "Warm2" setting in the 196 sets.

My suggested settings are for Samsung DLP displays.

Eliab
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