Hitachi FLICKER Issue...Good/Bad News

Well, fellow 42HDS69 owners, I have some good news and some bad news regarding our flicker issueand I won't even call it dark or black flicker anymore, because I have now identified the issue during light or normal lighting scenes as well. As previously reported, I had just started really watching programming on my set after 100 hours of nothing but break-in DVD; I watched some Finding Nemo last night, looking diligently for any sign of flicker and detected none. Then some of Jackie Brown Collectors Edition and I started to see some evidence of what everyone has been talking about. Tonightand here is the good news: for those of you who have tried to demonstrate this issue to a technician and failed, I think I have the demo disc for youI watched Disc 1, Side A, of Season 1 of The West Wing and there were these, what I can only describe as shifts of contrast, all over the place. If you're not familiar with the show, I think it really exploits this issue because as characters move around inside the White House, the subtleties of light change quickly and all you need to do is look at colors on the walls to see that the set is struggling to decide which picture to display. I know that sounds confusing, so let me see if I can explain it this way: imagine you have say 4 stills of a scene and each still has a different contrast setting and that may, in turn, effect hues and colors in the still. It seems that as a character moves into a different room or light, the set is throwing up 1 still, with 1 setting and then deciding no, maybe this is the proper way to display the picture and the still changes and I have seen examples where, within like 1 seconds time, if you just look at the color of a wall, the picture contrast, hue, color, seem to change 4 times or so before it settles down. I don't know the way some of the technical aspects work, but does this sound like a problem with the sets de-interlacer? Like I said, the only good news I can think of is I am SURE I can demonstrate the issue on my set to a Hitachi technician and maybe we can get some kind of answer on the problem. If it can't be fixed, my set will be going back; whether my issue is more severe than some, or if certain types of programming just bring it out more than others, I cannot say, but I can't live with the picture anomaly.

I started this thread because it has previously been mixed in with the general Hitachi postings, good and bad, but I think those of us trying to decide how to resolve this issue or return these sets, should be able to follow a thread specifically dedicated to this very troubling issue.

CD

I would almost buy this explanation (and at this point I am looking for an answer, rather than an excuse to send it back) as it sounds exactly as I explained it; at the time I thought maybe it was the most asinine description, but I said in my post earlier "it was almost as if the set were displaying different screens, trying to decide which one looked best". Well, that certainly sounds like this Auto Contrast adjustment that you describe. The reason I can't accept this completely is I have seen instances where a scene looked light, like the contrast was washing the picture out, so it quickly switched to where the image looked darker, with more contrast...and better, so maybe the set should have stopped "adjusting" right there...but then it would quickly switch lighter, and then maybe darker again; hence the "flicker"...4 or so contrast changes within a second. If this is the way the set auto contrasts, it's a good idea with bad implementation, because it is annoying as hell. I may have a particularly bad set, because like I said, I even see this transition taking place in regular lighting scenes.

I need to watch more before I give up completely. For instance, I've only hooked my 1080i HD cable box up a few times, but I never noticed this issue with that source. Is it because that's mostly highly-hit information or is it maybe the source? My thinking may be way off here, but my DVD player is outputting 480p right now (haven't purchased a HDMI cable to upconvert to 1080i); could the issue be in how the set is converting 480p to 1080i? Others posting to this thread, I'm curious how many sources you see this issue with. One more so than another?


RC, I have watched my set exclusively in NightTime mode, so unfortunately it is not that simple in this set.

Yeah, unfortunately, some of these flat-panel "veterans" may be right. I guess we first time buyers come looking for real improvements over our CRT or bulky RPTVs (I had a Pioneer Elite HD RPTV), but I guess the reality is you have to trade some kind of picture quirk or degradation for the convenience of flat-panel? I say this after looking through my Hitachi manual for any kind of answer to this flicker or Auto-Contrast feature. Didn't find anything, but I did come across these interesting tidbits (these are all under the Troubleshooting section):
-a buzzing sound from the Plasma display panel...is NOT a malfunction
-issues with lip-sync (which I have occasionally noticed)...is NOT a defect in the television
-and our favorite...bright and dark spots and I quote "...there may be points that do not illuminate, points that are too bright, and points with color different with that of the periphery. Please note that this is NOT a malfunction". WTF?

Yeah, it sounds like even the manufacturer is trying to warn us not to expect "perfection". But I'm with the newbies; it may sound naive, but is this what I drop $2,000+ of my hard-earned bucks on?

CD

Here's the latest on my 42HDS69 saga: about 2 days before I got through break-in and really started watching my set, my boss informed me that he could have gotten me a HELLUVA price on the TV. You see, I just started working for him about 4 months ago and lo and behold, in addition to owning the company I work for, he's living every A/V nut's dream: he's an enthusiast who has also started small-time distributing on the side. He's really got connections on just about everything, including beautiful high-end stuff (it's going to get me in major trouble), and the price he is offering me is COST; in fact, it's DISCOUNTED COST (more on that in a minute). When I was looking to buy my set, I didn't want to hit him up for a price...plus I was worried about a delivery...and after he offered, I wasn't going screw the retailer I bought from and jump for the much lower price. However, since my set has now started having this damn flicker issue, it gives me a perfectly legitimate reason to return it and take advantage of the offer.

So I was explaining the issue to him today and I said normally I would exhaust tying to fix the issue on my current set before giving up on it and opting for something else; you know, firmware update, technician visit, etc. But since he was offering the set at a better price, I would just return this one, pray to the Lord that I just got a bad one, and see how his did. However, if the new set also exhibited this flickering, I would, at that point, try the firmware upgrade, technician visit, etc...but if it persisted, that would convince me the issue was inherent to the model and I would not want to keep it. Well, there's always a rub and there it is; as a distributor, he can't just return it, he has to find a different way to move it and isn't interested in taking the loss since he doesn't really deal in Plasma TVs normally and wouldn't be interested in trying to move it if it didn't work out for me.

So...I've got to see if this one can be corrected, so I can determine if this is a model worth getting again at the lower price, or if I have to just ditch Hitachi and start my search, limited to Panny, Pio, Samsung this time, all over again. Ugh!!

Now, here's what I find interesting about this set: IMO, Hitachi has made an effort to really aim the 42HDS69 at the masses; to maybe make THIS set the one that will breakthrough so that everyone thinks "hey, I gotta get a plasma...and wow, look, they're kind of affordable". I mean, I can't recall a TV and magazine campaign around a single model the way I have for the 42HDS69. Now, the prices are dropping through the floor. I know we can't discuss price here, but I will say that in my area, CC has dropped the price $270 since I bought the set 2 weeks ago!! And the distributor that my boss got his price from has dropped the cost about the same. So is Hitachi trying to price this thing to really break out, or do they realize they have a dog on their hands? I'm also wondering, as I hear others talking about waiting for the HDT or HDX series, aren't they likely to use the same panels, and therefore inherit the same flicker issue, as the HDS? Plus, I see that motorized stand as a waste of money for anyone who plans to wall-mount their set anyway.

Chris

So...I settled in for some hard, critical viewing tonight, forced to make a decision about whether to keep my 42HDS69 or not. I started off with my HD STB, as I wanted to test a theory; most of my viewing up until this point had been done with a new DVD player (a Denon 1730, I bought for upconverting on this set, but up until this point I have only been running component output at 480p)...maybe my issue was being caused by the player? Or was exaggerated by the set having to convert 480p to its native 1080i? My Comcast HD STB looked GREAT...and whereas I couldn't stop seeing the "flicker" or contrast shifts from the DVDs, the picture...contrast, color, definition...was sharp and steady from the cable feed. The STB was using the same input and cables that I used for the DVD, so I eliminated them as suspects. So I was convinced that the issue could not be with the "panels", as I have heard someone else suggest, as a panel defect or tendency would happen no matter what the source. Long-story-short: I started monkeying with the settings and for some reason, my problem is DEFINITELY being caused by the Contrast setting being too low. I was still dialed way down from my break-in and I found the picture to be acceptable (other than the "flicker" of course) at about 30%, so that's where I've been watching material the past few days. BEHOLD...bounce it up to 40% and the shadowy, contrast-shifts, flicker-whatevers are GONE!! I went back and watched scenes that were torture the day before: West Wing, Jackie Brown, Armageddon Criterion; did I mention that the flicker was GONE!? I even had my wife lend a second set of eyes, just to make sure I wasn't new-plasma-owner-joins-avsforum-and-starts-seeing-things-that-aren't-really-there guy; but after training her as to what the hell i was talking about, she noticed it every where I did, which was EVERYWHERE, too. But then she also agreed that this Contrast increase eliminated it.

I saw elsewhere, after my discovery, that someone else thinks Color Temp and Noise Reduction settings may be the key in eliminating their flicker issue. But I also noticed his Contrast setting was 56, way above the threshold I discovered. So I think the bottom line is, as one Plasma veteran mentioned, that tweaking, tweaking, tweaking, is really essential in Plasma; you can't just expect these sets to look very good right out of the box.

I will say this: I was still able to re-create this flicker issue with one particularly torturous scene in Jackie Brown. The scene is essential in a dark room, with bodies illuminated as silhouettes from window light at night. I believe this somewhat lighter and somewhat darker holding of black backgrounds is the normal, all plasmas do it, false-contouring that I have heard about. In any case, whatever it is, I can live with it and am ecstactic about being able to tweak the set now for best, most vibrant picture, and not just to make it acceptable to view.

I suggest anyone still having this issue, try checking your Contrast. Too low like mine, or is this a case of different strokes for different folks? I'm really hoping others find some success and welcome reading the posts.

Chris

Collectors Edition DVD.

Lodef, stay optimistic, but I have heard 42HDS69 owners say the firmware upgrade did not resolve their problem. I haven't rushed right out to get it for that reason. There is more information on the Hitachi flciker in the OFFICIAL thread.

Puchall, I agree with you that it is unacceptable to simply change settings to mask a possible defect or tendency with a particular set. In my case, the only reason I might be able to live with it is that the issue is Contrast being at 30% or lower, which is not really where I'd have the set after dialing it in anyway. In other words, not only does it help with my flicker, but the picture looks BETTER too; I was only that low to begin with because of break-in concerns.

I started this thread because I think we all need to share info to find a possible remedy; that includes any and all feedback from Hitachi, reps, techs, etc. I need the firmware upgrade, but don't expect that to help much. Yes, I am still noticing some flicker, although it is no where near as bad as it was with the Contrast way down. I have mentioned this before and no one really bit, but could it have something to do with the set's processor and the way it handles conversion?? I say this because I only ever see the issue with my DVD player, which is currently outputting at 480p, and I NEVER see it with my STB, which is 1080i...the native resolution for this set. Now, granted, up to this point I am usually watching sports or some other hi-def programming on the STB, and it wouldn't highlight black issues like a movie would, but I think I'm going to make a point of watching some Deadwood or something tonight and see what happens. For me, if this is at least part of the issue, then getting an HDMI cable (which I'm planning to do anyway) and having my player upconvert to 1080i, might greatly help the issue.

CD