Official Pioneer PRO-1540HD/1140HD/940HD Owner's thread/merged thread - Page 8

Hey elite owners...any of you upgrading your sound system? I'm thinking of going with the Pioneer elite 84TSXi and Mirrage Omnisat V2 speakers. My speakers currently are 701 bookshelf MISSIONS and they sound terribly FLAT!!

Due to these forums I have purchased in the last month the 1140HD and the Pioneer Elite receiver VSX-81TXV. Since I see that audio systems have been mentioned on this thread for the 1140 and I assume there must be audiophiles here, I wanted to know how to best match my componentry above with a 7.1 speaker system. This entire month has been a venture/adventure into a whole new realm for me, so I am as ignorant about the sound system as well. Hopefully, someone can guide me towards an appropriate speaker match. My viewing/listening room is 16' wide x 23' long x 12' high ceiling. The ceiling is barrel vauleted meaning that the walls at a height of 7' begin to curve upwards towards the ceiling to an ultimate 12' high (like a church!). There are already existing speakers mounted in the ceiling, so I wondered if they could be incorporated. The 1140 is centered one end of one of the 16' wide walls so that I am looking down the long view of the room. If this is not the appropriate thread to address this issue, maybe someone can advise which thread is. Since I don't know speaker names the Forum list on Speakers is alien to me.


By the way. All this talk about prices, I applaud those who buy and support local businesses. I shopped for my gear relentlessly on the internet and found the cheapest prices from authorized dealers then asked my local store if they would match it. They did !

Thanks.

I do plan on getting an ISF calibration for my pre-ordered 1540, once I get past 200 hours. Funny that you mention this Russ, as yesterday I posted a comment about the extra tweakability of the Elite being a selling point for me and received the following comments from ssabripo:

"Zaracsan....couple of things to keep in mind:

1. many ISF calibrators will bypass the Elite ISF modes (C3) when calibrating, as they can actually do better with the regular menu modes. I had my guy try both, and the results (although close) were better going thru the regular service menu mode.

2. the 5070 properly calibrated will have a SUPERB picture, very VERY close to the Elites.

so, don't let that be your determining factor."

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I asked for further clarification, but got no response to my own reply that said:

"Hmmm... Certainly something to ponder, but I have fairly big differences in the amount of ambient light in my room during the day versus nighttime; which is (obviously) the big appeal of having the ISF CCC mode for me. I'm not doubting you can get very good results via the regular menu modes, but I would be curious to run that by a calibrator familiar with the Pio ISF CCC to see if they concur with your opinion. It would seem that there would be some advantage to being able to fine tune a display, if you have the new independent RGB Gamma Control. Also, don't the non-Elites lack independent R/Y/G/C/B/M adjustments? And then there are the Elite only Active DRE, Intelligent DRE, Intelligent Color Enhancement and Block Noise Reduction features to consider; surely these are of some value, no?"

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The calibrator forum is probably the more appropriate place to seek answers for questions regarding the Elite ISF CCC mode, but I wish someone would clarify whether what ssabripo says is correct or not. Anyone here know?

UMR is a calibrator that I am considering for my calibration, so I am curious to know more of the specifics here. I follow what you are saying, but I am still left wondering if theses "bugs" are not something that can be dealt with, in order that the full extent of ISF tweaking can be realized, rather than doing a lesser calibration instead, if indeed that would be the case? For me, the day and night settings are important enough that I may have to find a way to resolve these issues that UMR has unearthed. Could it be possible that the bugs a specific to the FHD1, and not necessarily the rest of the new Elite as well?

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I found an earlier comment from D-Nice that I was looking for that addresses the contention (by ssabripo) that the Non-Elite is capable of displaying much the same PQ as the Elite when tweaked correctly. Here is that comment:

"The Non-Elites do not have the same controls as the Elites (main menu) in the SM. Yes they have the RGB controls, but they do not have the DRE controls, six individual color controls, and additional noise filters. I don't even think the non-Elites have gamma control.

Also, for this year's models they do not share the same color filter. The Elites have the Pro color filter while the non-Elites have the regular color filter.

If you guys were able to see a calibrated Elite side by side with a calibrated non-Elite, the differences would be noticeable."

RussWong: your comment seems a bit contradictory to me. I too am going to have my 1140 calibrated after the 100 hour mark. But why do so if you bring up these suggestions of further problems. What exactly are you referring to "bugs" and "require service from Pio. to fix?" Since my calibration was included in my purchase price and is very attractive for the advertised benefits of differenent source broadcasts and lighting conditions that vary from different viewing times I would like to know if you can substantiate your claim. Frankly your comment makes me nervous. Is calibration just another marketing hype and Pio. hasn't gotten it straight yet?

I just got delivery of the 1140. Even std def on TWC Digital looks good right now. I was worried that std def would look worse than my previous Sony Wega CRT. It doesn't.

Anyone know how I can get HD channels while I wait for TWC to upgrade my service? Also, I'm thinking of getting the Oppo 970. (Figured this would be a good player to get while I let the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray battle shake itself out for a year or so.) Any Oppo users with their 1140/940?

Most cable companies retransmit local channels in the clear. If you've done the channel scan, the tuner should have found any local stations transmitting in digital and added them to the channel list. At least my 1140 did when I first got it so I had some HD to watch before the cable company installed the CableCard.

On a side note, I've had absolutely no problems with my CableCard, so far anyway, and not experienced any error codes etc. while the 1140 has been in standby. The TVGOS hasn't caused me any problems either, such as randomly shutting off the set and so on. I've even scheduled a few programs and the TVGOS has faithfully popped up the accept notice and switched to the scheduled show at the appointed times.

Ted

Does anybody know the packaging (box) dimensions of the 1140? My dealer is insisting on delivery, buy I'm sure the thing will fit in my van. (I have fit other 50" panels before)

34"Hx52"Lx13"W

thanks

The product brochure states the following dimensions:

W x H x D

Plasma
52-3/4" x 33-3/4" x 14-1/4"

Stand
16-3/4" x 7-1/2" x 26"

Speakers
30-1/4" x 6" x 12-3/4"

I would think you could fit it in a van providing you can fold/move seats if there are any. One reason they may insist is they don't want to be held responsible if you move it on your own, break it, and want to blame it on them. My dealer will let me haul whatever I want on my own.

Thanks Ted. So if I get a HD cable box rather than a Cable Card, I don't need to do channel scan, program channels, or worry about TVGOS, right? Don't you get a program guide through your cable company with the Card as well? What made you decide to get the Card, rather than a box.

Since the link you posted for Pioneer's web site doesn't provide much in the way of useful information about the specifics of C3 calibration, I checked with the ISF Forum for help clarifying what exactly C3 is, and here is their take on the subject:

In Depth

A small but growing number of manufacturers have adopted the ISF C3 system as a way of simplifying the process of video calibration by providing controlled access to the settings needed by a calibrator. The C3 system also simplifies the way the consumer interacts with the display after it has been calibrated ensuring that the calibrated modes are locked while also allowing access to the default user settings modes that are provided via the factory setup process.

The ISF C3 system is not a standalone system. Instead, C3 is an interface similar to an application programming interface (API) in the computer realm which is included as part of the display's firmware. Use of the C3 system on displays including it requires third-party software that enables communication with the display and its system memory.

Pitfalls

At this early stage few ISF calibrators have access to a 3C software application due to the relatively small number of products supporting the system versus the cost of the product.

Other Methods

All known C3 Ready displays can be calibrated just as effectively without use of the C3 software application. However, some of the calibrator and user convenience provided by the C3 system is sacrificed when the calibration bypasses the C3 interface.

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What I would now be curious to know, is whether Jeff (UMR) deferred from wanting to use the ISF C3 system, because he hasn't made the required investment in C3 software, or whether there are (indeed) any known bugs related to Pioneer's implementation of C3? If C3 is basically an API for accessing the Pioneer firmware in the display, then I am hard pressed to believe the bugs mentioned could not be easily corrected with a firmware update, were there some known issues with the use of C3 on Pioneer Elites. If Jeff does not own the software and is suggesting that I forgo the benefits of certain "user conveniences" (like day/night settings) because of this, then I may have to find a calibrator that owns the C3 software. I'll PM Jeff to see if I can get him to weight in on this...

970 works great with the 1140. Feed it 480i via HDMI.

I also had the Pio 79 and couldn't tell the difference between the two.

marty

Parts of that e-mail are about clear as mud to me.

How could it be that "Locking the display would force the client to use an uncalibrated mode which would degrade the picture greatly."?

Doesn't the locking process involve locking in a specific calibration, in order to keep users from mucking it up? Does the ability to unlock require the C3 software, or can I be given a code to access whatever area need be accessed? Can the calibrator make the decision to leave things unlocked, but still make the required changes?

Definitely need to get some answers about the day/night settings.

Is the Elite Custom Calibration Mode the Same as the C3 mode and is this the one with potential 'bugs'/problems?

What do I tell my calibrator if the above is the case? Don't use the Custom Calibration Mode, only the normal mode?

Finally, why would an authorized Pioneer dealer who sends their trained ISF calibrator out NOT have C3 application software?



RUSSWONG: "Clarification - what I was referring to was a special mode that is available on the Elite plasmas called the ISF Custom Calibration Mode. This mode allows for special settings and such. You can read about it on this link. This is a functionality of the TV. You can have your plasma calibrated using this mode or not using this mode. The feedback I received when asking about this mode is that it is problematic. A calibratoin can be done with out using this mode and that seems to be UMRs recommendation. So you can still have it calibrated, it's the question of using Elite's calibration mode or not to do it."

yes, they are the same. I have not heard of many of the "bugs" but rather that they are not as flexible as going thru the service menu


Let your Calibrator do what he feels is best. Some Calibrators use C3 and some dont. I've had my 1130 calibrated both ways, and frankly the non-C3 calibration came out slightly better. Many of the leading ISF calibrators, including Bob Fucci and many others, use the regular menus to do a much better job.


same reason I gave you above....many times, nay , even most times, the calibration done thru the service menu comes out better than the C3 modes. It is all related on how good your calibrator is.

however, one thing to check is to make sure the calibrator HAS access to the C3 software and knows about it. If someone shows up and has no Software anywhere and worst yet, doesn't know how to access and do a C3 if really requested, then that's a pretty good sign that he doesn't do many Pioneer Elite calibrations, which in my mind does not bode well.

just my 0.02

All well and good, but what about the Day and Night settings? Also, the quote from the ISF Forum FAQ alludes to forgoing some conveniences by skipping the C3 calibration; any idea exactly what the extent of those conveniences are? Seems like some of what C3 is about, is allowing the calibration process to become more proprietary for your calibrator; but I'm still not understanding what UMR (Jeff) really meant by his comment: "Locking the display would force the client to use an uncalibrated mode which would degrade the picture greatly." I sent a PM to Jeff, so hopefully he will elaborate about any*bugs* related to C3 and Pioneer.

You seem to be *in* to calibration more than most ssabripo: any online resources (i.e. forums) that you can point me to as good resources for getting other opinions on C3 and Elite calibrations?

yes, jeff does NOT use C3 as I recall, and neither does Bob Fucci and many others who work closely with imagesciencefoundation. There have been stories of the C3 doing a poor job with the displays, but I dont think they are that bad at all.....however, the Elite's already have most color adjustments available in their menus, and a good calibrator would do an outstanding job without the need of C3. Pioneer is still improving on the C3 software and settings, so maybe in future sets, it will be on par.


heheh...no, I'm not "in" but thanks for the compliment. I just do my research before doing anything, so in the process I learn a lot...I'm kinda anal like that.

isfforums and this forum here in AVS are good sources for info. Like I said, I was kinda like you and hung up on the C3 menus, but having both of them done, the flexibility and final results of going through the menu were better overall.

good luck

The key word here being most. If the Day and Night modes are tied to using C3, then I need to know that before I throw down for an ELite. I would also like to be clear what the other "conveniences" mentioned by the ISF Forum are. I would also like to have a fuller understanding about whether this is a firmware problem from Pioneers end, or it is tied to the C3 software; and how significant these "bugs" really are. I'm still not clear that the alleged problems with C3 are not really calibrators blowing smoke because it is a big PITA to do a C3 calibration and that they would rather forgo some labor intensive process; or they simply aren't willing to make the investment in the software, as people are buying in to their 'bug story'. I don't have enough information to make a determination about the truth or falsity of any such claims (at this point), but vague answers only serve to make me more determined to get to the bottom of this.


The ISF Forum is a private community for ISF alumni, so that doesn't do me much good, beyond the tidbits in their FAQ. No doubt, our Forum is of value, but I was looking to find alternate resources with broader participation from ISF calibrators.

Thank you for your comments.

Well then how do we achieve this?

I am about to purchase an 1140, and I know that it has two user defined settings, but I thought that I would get those ISF calibrated for night and day.

Are you recommending that those be calibrated for HDTV and DVD/SDTV?

Thanks,
Basheer

Thank you, I did not know that you could tweek each input to the specific settings recommended by D-Nice.

Thanks!

Basheer

What about when you use a Toshiba HD-DVD? I noticed that D-Nice posted setting for the Toshiba HD-DVD, but he also posted separate settings for a standalone DVD as well; which got me to wondering (because of the different color spaces) how would you work it out if you are using the Toshiba as both your DVD and HD-DVD player with just the one input? Would you simply re-assign the appropriate setting to the Toshiba input depending on what you what disc type you were playing?