or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › HD DVD Players › Tosh G2 HD-A2 and HD-XA2 information and discussion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Tosh G2 HD-A2 and HD-XA2 information and discussion - Page 61

post #1801 of 4928
So the new A2 ships the week of the 13th? Is it set to arrive in stores around then?

Ive searched the net and Toshiba's website and still cannot find a defenite release date for this new machine. I was told that I could buy one in the store in roughly 2 weeks from now (well I was told this a few days ago).
post #1802 of 4928
Hi,

Dunno in USA, here in Europe, E1 is "officially" annouced 15 Nov. and XE1 15 Dec.

Some rumors started yesterday talking about a one week delay, but not confirmed by Toshiba (France) that still plan 15/11 for E1.

--Patrice
post #1803 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

^^ Sorry to say I am 100% sure their is no HDMI cable packed with the HD-A2. The G1 machines had a 6' HDMI - HDMI cable.

-Robert

Ouch that hurt, no 5.1-no coaxail-no hdmi cable(luckily I have a spare ) for a Hi def player!?
Luckily the 5 free HDDVD's, better remote, better response has finally sold me.
Rob: if I was to order Friday when can I expest it to be shipped to Wi.
And how do you pick your 2 free movies?
Thanks:
post #1804 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG ED View Post

Where did you hear (get it?) that?


No.
"Jitter" is a clocking (timing) error that occurs when transmitting digital signals.
Jitter Defined: Jitter: "Short-term variations of the significant instants of a digital signal from their ideal positions in time" (ITU).
If DAC's, as you say, create jitter, what in the heck good would a re-clocking device between the transport & the DAC do???

That's a BIG "given"!!!
Some processors (DAC's, preamps, & receivers) have "Phase-Locked Loop Type Jitter Reduction Circuit", ala re-clocking devices (jitter boxes). Most, do not!

Oh, no!

I've been afraid of hearing something like this. I fought a very long battle with jitter for LPCM, DD and DTS and finally got where I needed to be (took me years). Now that HDMI was being used to transmit the LPCM audio, I really saw no erason why the problem should be any differemt. However, everybody has been talking about how great the True-HD sound is with HDMI and so I was hoping that somehow, something, had magically changed.

So you are saying that in terms of jitter, it has been determined there is in fact no difference in performance quality between traditional digital audio connections and HDMI? If that's the case, what is the use of using HDMI for audio connections? I'm unaware of any HDMI jitter control/reduction methods and we already know the HDMI cable connections are probably the worst existing connections in the world.

Guess it's time to start web searching the topic.
post #1805 of 4928
Read below regarding the unsatifactory nature of HDMI in how it handles audio. Maybe the morons who designed the connector should have also gotten away from audio and stuck to something else...

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/ubb...c;f=7;t=001044
post #1806 of 4928
Quote:


^^^ So what is an alternative? Multiple AES pairs?

That is exactly what Meridian does now for the digital output of DVD-Audio. Well, they use 3 standard SPDIF not balanced.
post #1807 of 4928
Robert - are the A2s still set to ship next week?
post #1808 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

Read below regarding the unsatifactory nature of HDMI in how it handles audio. Maybe the morons who designed the connector should have also gotten away from audio and stuck to something else...

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/ubb...c;f=7;t=001044


Thanks. It is a good read.
post #1809 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

Read below regarding the unsatifactory nature of HDMI in how it handles audio. Maybe the morons who designed the connector should have also gotten away from audio and stuck to something else...

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/ubb...c;f=7;t=001044

Looking at the thread, I guess that was the kind of magic I was hoping for, locking the audio to the video. Though that still doesn't guarantee the divided video clock is perfect, it's probably better than the embeded clock delivered in the LPCM. (Wonder how they would resolve the three LPCM clock incarnations?)

Would be interesting to know what the ratio is between "coherent" and non with existing HD-DVD releases.

Given the primary weapon against coax jitter is impedance control extending right through the terminations, I can just imagine the smeared mess that must arrive in that HDMI connector. Impedance continuity was probably the very least of the design considerations. Without a separate time base (as in video), it's likely a disaster.
post #1810 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

With advanced, the disk must be authored to support the resume feature with metadata. I really don't see why studios haven't implemented this yet...

Maybe they don't believe people care enough. Maybe somebody should start a poll to get an idea about what people around here think. Could be something like whether people would prefer bookmarks or resume functionality if they had to choose. Or maybe somebody can think of a better way to ask the question. Alhtough they could word it so that it makes it look like nobody cares about that feature. My gut feeling is that more average type people will care about losing the resume that they've gotten used to with DVDs, but I don't have any real evidence.

--Darin
post #1811 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorS View Post

Oh, no!

So you are saying that in terms of jitter, it has been determined there is in fact no difference in performance quality between traditional digital audio connections and HDMI? If that's the case, what is the use of using HDMI for audio connections?

HDMI just sends the data bit for bit - just a data connect.

I'd love to see evidence that it "creates" jitter...
post #1812 of 4928
Jitter an issue? Are we back in the 90s? Should we resurrect Audio Alchemy? Jitte, to me was an over-rated crock. In the home theater ralm, its significance to real world soundtracks would be infintessimally small - an esoteric nuance at best. Unless you have a 6 figure system and a lot of time on your hands, I have no doubt you can find other ways to improve your sound..Sometimes I think many here look for reasons, no matter how obscure, NOT to upgrade.....
post #1813 of 4928
What da ya think??? Am I a jitter guy or what?
post #1814 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

HDMI just sends the data bit for bit - just a data connect.

I'd love to see evidence that it "creates" jitter...

I wish that were true. However, digital audio LPCM includes both digital and analog information. The analog is in the form of the exact timing of the embedded word clock. Any reflections within the cable/terminations or hysteresis in the receiver create uncertainty as to that exact timing and that inherently creates a jitter component. My hope was that a mechanism would be present to overide that issue in the case of HDMI and the most desirable mechanism would be to escape the embedded clock and lock onto a separate (but synchronous) video timebase instead. That's were the issue of "coherent" Vs "non-coherent" comes up.

Still, there isn't the slightest chance of me getting into an argument over it. Believe what you choose to believe.
post #1815 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

I would guess not before mid December.

-Robert


Can you tell us or could you find out if the HD-XA2 will do any sort of Zoom modes? Like a vertical stretch zoom mode for those with 2.35:1 setups? This would be a very big selling point for this model and I know a lot of AVS members would jump on one of these if it has it.
post #1816 of 4928
Can someone quickly discern this for me as a friend is about to buy one potentially, and I wanna make sure he makes an informed decision. I see folks saying the A2 does not include 5.1 analog output (only the XA2). If he has a receiver that doesn't have HDMI input/output, will he be able to run a coax/optical cable from the A2 player to the audio receiver (which will be doing all of the DTS/DD decoding), or does he need the XA2? I want to make sure I understand this feature (or the lack thereof) properly. Many thanks.

Jeff
post #1817 of 4928
^^^ He can run an optical cable for a S/PDIF connection. For the advanced DD+ & Dolby TrueHD codecs his AVR won't do the original decode. The player will re-encode to high bitrate (1.5 mbps) dts and send that over optical to his AVR. Should sound just fine -- just not all the uber potential of an linear PCM HDMI connection.

Bob
post #1818 of 4928
Quote:


HDMI just sends the data bit for bit - just a data connect.

I'd love to see evidence that it "creates" jitter...

Wow, you should be an electrical engineer....
post #1819 of 4928
With a 12 bit pj would there be an issue with vertical banding using an A2 compared to the XA2 due to the A2 being 11 bits vs the XA2 12 bits?
post #1820 of 4928
Quote:


With a 12 bit pj would there be an issue with vertical banding using an A2 compared to the XA2 due to the A2 being 11 bits vs the XA2 12 bits?

The 11-bit and 12-bit DACs are only used for component output. They aren't used for DVI/HDMI.

Blu-ray and HD-DVD only support 8-bit 4:2:0 content on disk.
post #1821 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Jitter an issue? Are we back in the 90s? Should we resurrect Audio Alchemy? Jitte, to me was an over-rated crock. In the home theater ralm, its significance to real world soundtracks would be infintessimally small - an esoteric nuance at best. Unless you have a 6 figure system and a lot of time on your hands, I have no doubt you can find other ways to improve your sound..Sometimes I think many here look for reasons, no matter how obscure, NOT to upgrade.....

I agree. Like the guys pushing for 24-bit noise-floor gear in rooms sitting on vibration isolators on hardwood floors and glass along an entire wall.

I'll say this: a TrueHD/DD+ track delivered to my Pio Elite via HDMI totally immerses me in the movie experience. Promise delivered.
post #1822 of 4928
Hello,

I dunno if this was mentionned before, but look at this post : http://www.avforums.com/forums/showt...20#post3739920

It is a guy from AV Forum that had a demo meeting with Toshiba Europe Rep.

First they don't use E1 for demo (althought there was a sample) that do not sounds quite good. He basically says there will be slight delay.

Interesting point being :
- Firmware update will add DTS Lossless (not just Core)
- The XE1 still uses SHARC DACs and the E1 uses the same DACs as in the HD-A1.
- Both sets use Faroudja DCDi for upscaling (!! the interesting here being "both" !)
- He confirm the no region lock for G2 so far (and won't be locked in future firmware update)
- On 24p, It could be added in a firmware update, but couldn't say if they would be. It may be something for the 2nd gen players over here. (Europe, so G3 in US)

--Patrice
post #1823 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

I'll say this: a TrueHD/DD+ track delivered to my Pio Elite via HDMI totally immerses me in the movie experience. Promise delivered.

And that is clearly the most important thing, a satisfying performance experienced by the individual. Ultimately, jitter (like any other source of distortion) is only a real issue to those who experience a problem due to its presence. That will depend on a lot of factors and is in no way a reflection on the integrity or intelligence of the individual.

If it's not an issue for you, great ! If it is, dragsville !
post #1824 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

DD True HD uses MLP as the lossless portion of the track. My understadning is that Dolby includes a legacy DD track in addition to a lossless track that uses MLP. (While DTS uses a core + lossless extensions).

On HD-DVD, TrueHD is a standalone/separate track, just as you saw with DVD Audio on DVD. On Blu-ray, TrueHD is implemented as an extension track that also includes a legacy DD track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

He can run an optical cable for a S/PDIF connection. For the advanced DD+ & Dolby TrueHD codecs his AVR won't do the original decode. The player will re-encode to high bitrate (1.5 mbps) dts and send that over optical to his AVR. Should sound just fine -- just not all the uber potential of an linear PCM HDMI connection.

Bob

Hi Guys,

Perhaps you folks can clear up some confusion I'm having regarding determining the bit rate of content passing through the S/PDIF connection.

Suppose we have an HD DVD disc with DD+ or TrueHD on it. According to Bob (and I hope he is correct) it would be re-encoded to 1.5 mbps dts. If this is the case, even if it is passed through the S/PDIF connection, assuming the mixing wasn't injured by the mixer (no insult intended Marc, it should always sound much superior to the standard DVD mix, because the bit rate would be 3.3 times the 448 kbps bit rate of the standard DD release.

However, Health Nut and bfdtv seem to be saying that a disc with DD+ or TrueHD would also have a legacy DD track. Now a standalone legacy DD track shouldn't have a bit rate higher than 640 kbps, and it could be a lot lower.

So my question is when using the S/PDIF connection on the Toshiba, is it grabbing the legacy track at the much lower bit rate and sending it as dts to the receiver/processor, or is it grabbing the advanced codecs with the higher bit rates and sending the re-encoded track at 1.5 mbps dts?

Thanks.

Larry
post #1825 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

BTW, delivery is scheduled for the first week of October for the A2 and the last week of December or beginning of January for the XA2.

-Robert

So what's up with Toshiba? It's middle of November and still nothing.
post #1826 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

So what's up with Toshiba? It's middle of November and still nothing.

VE (Robert) expects the A2s to ship next week (week of Nov 13th)... hopefully that pans out... any update , Robert?
post #1827 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

... is it grabbing the legacy track at the much lower bit rate and sending it as dts to the receiver/processor, or is it grabbing the advanced codecs with the higher bit rates and sending the re-encoded track at 1.5 mbps dts?

Speaking of the G1 (A1 & XA1) players here:

When you hit the DISPLAY button on the Toshiba's remote control it pops up a window that shows you the audio codec the player is using/decoding. If you have selected a Dolby TrueHD track using the disc's audio selection menu or by hitting the AUDIO button on the remote control, the DISPLAY window will show Dolby TrueHD as the audio codec being used. On some disc menus "dts" tracks can be selected. I've never seen nor heard of a legacy 448 kbps DD track on a HD DVD. Only seen DD+, TrueHD, and dts.

The player decodes TrueHD to internal linear PCM, does any mixing -- button sounds & IME, etc, does Bass Management, distance and level settings and sends that out via the 5.1 analog outputs and also out via linear PCM on the HDMI. If BITSTREAM (the default) is selected for SPDIF in the player's AUDIO SETUP menu, it will also then re-encode to 1.5 mbps dts the internal decoded linear PCM audio (but before any BM, distance comp, etc) and send it out via coax & optical (Toslink) S/PDIF outputs.

What is strange is that the linear PCM sent out via HDMI seems to get Bass Management, level settings, distance comp all applied. Not what I would expect but the user results seem to show that is the case.

Bob
post #1828 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorS View Post

And that is clearly the most important thing, a satisfying performance experienced by the individual. Ultimately, jitter (like any other source of distortion) is only a real issue to those who experience a problem due to its presence. That will depend on a lot of factors and is in no way a reflection on the integrity or intelligence of the individual.

If it's not an issue for you, great ! If it is, dragsville !


Ever seen any double-blind tests indicating what real-world effect it has?
post #1829 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

... is it grabbing the legacy track at the much lower bit rate and sending it as dts to the receiver/processor, or is it grabbing the advanced codecs with the higher bit rates and sending the re-encoded track at 1.5 mbps dts?

Speaking of the G1 (A1 & XA1) players here:

When you hit the DISPLAY button on the Toshiba's remote control it pops up a window that shows you the audio codec the player is using/decoding. If you have selected a Dolby TrueHD track using the disc's audio selection menu or by hitting the AUDIO button on the remote control, the DISPLAY window will show Dolby TrueHD as the audio codec being used. On some disc menus "dts" tracks can be selected. I've never seen nor heard of a legacy 448 kbps DD track on a HD DVD. Only seen DD+, TrueHD, and dts.

The player decodes TrueHD to internal linear PCM, does any mixing -- button sounds & IME, etc, does Bass Management, distance and level settings and sends that out via the 5.1 analog outputs and also out via linear PCM on the HDMI. If BITSTREAM (the default) is selected for SPDIF in the player's AUDIO SETUP menu, it will also then re-encode to 1.5 mbps dts the internal decoded linear PCM audio (but before any BM, distance comp, etc) and send it out via coax & optical (Toslink) S/PDIF outputs.

What is strange is that the linear PCM sent out via HDMI seems to get Bass Management, level settings, distance comp all applied. Not what I would expect but the user results seem to show that is the case.

Bob

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the response. It was both helpful and encouraging.

Theoretically even if a disc happened to have a legacy DD track included with other advanced tracks, from your explanation of the operation of the player, the user still would be able to select a higher bit rate track and via BITSTREAM obtain 1.5 mbps content via S/PDIF.

So as long as a consumer buys a disc with DD+ or TrueHD, he/she will be able to extract a 1.5 mbps track. With regard to discs that have a standard dts track, I guess there's no assurance that its bit rate is 1.5 mbps, I suppose it could be less.

Larry
post #1830 of 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

Ever seen any double-blind tests indicating what real-world effect it has?

As I said earlier, I'm not getting into this. I was merely supporting your statement that you are completely satisfied with your experience of True-HD via HDMI. No battle, no argument -- enjoy!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: HD DVD Players
AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › HD DVD Players › Tosh G2 HD-A2 and HD-XA2 information and discussion