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Time Warner Cable Navigator - Page 428

post #12811 of 18035
7/6/10 at 10:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by derek01 View Post

Hi BenJF3,

Thanks very much for the quick response. It was actually your signature in previous posts that made me think it was possible to add a larger drive, I had assumed it was an expansion drive as opposed to surgery.

Do you have a previous post where you describe the process? How easy/hard it was.

Thanks,
Derek

I simply swapped the OEM drive with a 1TB WD Black Edition and let it boot. I posted more detailed results earlier. The short version is you will need tamper resistant screw drivers and likely have to remove a security seal. Anyone doing so does it at their own risk.

As far as D*, I was just spitballing ideas. Going with them brings it's own set of issues, but they are a viable option if I get totally fed up with TWC.
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #12812 of 18035
7/6/10 at 4:20pm
Confirmed 298GB drive space.

Thanks again for the help.
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post #12813 of 18035
7/6/10 at 6:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCHeel View Post

Other than the one guy with the 8240, who else has gotten it to work? (it was certianly a bust for me with an 8640 and ODN 3.2)

There are two people with 8240HDCs and 3.2.x working - shawnc and mikey40.

8640 is a bust - but the internal replacement option is nice...

xnappo
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post #12814 of 18035
7/7/10 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

There are two people with 8240HDCs and 3.2.x working - shawnc and mikey40.

8640 is a bust - but the internal replacement option is nice...

xnappo

Ah, know I'd read those 2's stories, but somehow had it in my feeble cranium they were 8640s.... thanks for correcting the bad notion!

Was it that the only difference is the 8240 is analog/digital while the 8640 is only digital? Or the reverse??
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post #12815 of 18035
7/7/10 at 7:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy View Post

Ah, know I'd read those 2's stories, but somehow had it in my feeble cranium they were 8640s.... thanks for correcting the bad notion!

Was it that the only difference is the 8240 is analog/digital while the 8640 is only digital? Or the reverse??

8240HDC is a digital only version of the old-generation analog/digital 8300HDC... 8640 is the new generation version of the 8240.

Cisco digital only OCAP DVRs:
  • 8240HDC (old generation)
  • 8640HDC (new generation)
  • 8642HDC (new generation w/ MoCA)
Cisco analog/digital OCAP DVRs:
  • 8300HDC (old generation)
  • 8650HDC (new generation)
  • 8652HDC (new generation w/ MoCA)
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post #12816 of 18035
7/7/10 at 7:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post


8640 is a bust - but the internal replacement option is nice...

xnappo

I'm actually preferential to this for a few reasons.

1) No need for an external enclosure and additional power supply

2) More reliable overall

3) Future proof, no matter what TWC does in subsequent Navigator releases the internal drive will always be there. They may add the function and later take it away as they have done.

As long as you can force a download, you should be able to do a drive swap. If not, my next option would be to clone the OEM drive and then replace.
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post #12817 of 18035
7/7/10 at 7:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenJF3 View Post

I'm actually preferential to this for a few reasons.

1) No need for an external enclosure and additional power supply

2) More reliable overall

3) Future proof, no matter what TWC does in subsequent Navigator releases the internal drive will always be there. They may add the function and later take it away as they have done.

As long as you can force a download, you should be able to do a drive swap. If not, my next option would be to clone the OEM drive and then replace.

Your experience parallels mine with the 3090 drive swap... no muss,no fuss, behaves just like OE - only better.
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post #12818 of 18035
7/7/10 at 8:24am
I didn't follow the 8640HDC internval drive swap too carefully, but I recall posts about Navigator never registering free drive space properly, both in diagnostics and in the regular recordings menu. Did this ever work itself out, or is this just a side-effect of internal upgrade?
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post #12819 of 18035
7/7/10 at 2:23pm
Gator Question?

Do any of you ever get in the Search listings a program that will show a description of what it is, but the time and channel for it will be blank? This is a hypothetical example:

Suppose you are doing a show search (B) for by THEME. SELECT, LIFESTYLES, SELECT NATURE.

The Title list on the Left side of the screen says a program is called:

"The World Beneath The Sea"

The Right side of the screen however, shows no time, program description, or channel information, but for some odd reason, an option to record exists if the SELECT button is pressed.

I have seen this from time to time.

What accounts for this? A test station that we don't yet have? SDV? Or just poor Navigator design?

I had something like this once in Sports, and the mystery channel that came up was some Test station with what appered to be Comcast in the Info bar! (Like Comcast Sports Net.)

Jack
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post #12820 of 18035
7/8/10 at 5:57am
Lots of "Loading Data" screens this morning when browsing. Box seems to have resolved the earlier speed bump issues, which is good.

Jack
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post #12821 of 18035
7/8/10 at 6:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCHeel View Post

Continuing saga of switching from MDN to ODN.

Over the past week I have had both the 8300HD and 8640HDC connected and working. I have been mostly using the 8300 as I was trying to watch up everything I had recorded. In addition to testing the eSATA drive, I was also setting up all of my series recordings on the 8640. This weekend I finally emptied out the 8300 and moved over to the 8640 full time. The way it acted totally changed. The only difference is that I hooked up RCA audio cables.

At power up it can take 10 seconds or more for the picture to show up on the screen. Often the banner will show up and then dissapear on a blank screen before the picture comes on.

In general, the controls are very laggy. Often it will get stuck and then after 10 -20 seconds execute the backed up commands all at once. Changing the channel up and down is a problem, Trying to type in a 4 digit code is impossible.

When trying to FF or RW live TV, the banner will not come up or if it comes up it often gets stuck, staying up after the command is finished.

The worst is the Show List and the Guide. Often then won't come up at all. The Show List works ok once you get into it. The Guide is a nightmare. If you can get it to scroll, the info in the box at the top lags behind, but the show title in the same box does not. So the show title matches the line you are one but the description of the show is wrong.

Last night was the final straw. It did not record shows that I had scheduled. I watched it while the clock changed and it just did nothing. At the end of the show it just removed it from the Scheduled Recordings list.

I have re-booted again and again. Sometimes the problems go away for a short period but it reverts back again and again.
One interesting thing thing to note: Obviously with the 8640 I have been getting the ODN boot screen, it has "Scientific Atlanta, a Cisco company" on one side, a white banner with a JAVA logo, progress blocks that turn yellow, etc. One time I got a blue Mystro screen but it was not the same screen as with the 8300. It did not have progress bars but a circle with a single digit number in it..

Any ideas? I am calling TW today but right now I plan on going back to the 8300 even if I have to use the component hookups.

We had a head-end problem for about five hours the other day where our MDN 8300 was doing the same things as your ODN 8640. How is it now?

My guess (and who knows what's going on with them?) But TWC is interested in adding those two 3D channels, and I think this MIGHT be some national roll-out. (Great, instead of Keyword Search, we get this novelty crap.)

Unless, as this is the first report that I have heard of slowness outside of my division, and with the supposedly faster 8600 series box, maybe something big is coming for the guide, but again this is all speculation because TWC keeps everyone in the dark on what they're doing.

Did you talk to TWC? Did they say anything constructive beyond looking at a script?

Jack
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post #12822 of 18035
7/8/10 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satch Man View Post

We had a head-end problem for about five hours the other day where our MDN 8300 was doing the same things as your ODN 8640. How is it now?

My guess (and who knows what's going on with them?) But TWC is interested in adding those two 3D channels, and I think this MIGHT be some national roll-out. (Great, instead of Keyword Search, we get this novelty crap.)

Unless, as this is the first report that I have heard of slowness outside of my division, and with the supposedly faster 8600 series box, maybe something big is coming for the guide, but again this is all speculation because TWC keeps everyone in the dark on what they're doing.

Did you talk to TWC? Did they say anything constructive beyond looking at a script?

Jack

The last two days my 8640 has been freezing to the point that I have to pull the power cord for a power cycle. It loads navigtor again then runs really slow for about 15 minutes then acts normal. I had to do it twice yesterday and once this morning.
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post #12823 of 18035
7/9/10 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satch Man View Post

We had a head-end problem for about five hours the other day where our MDN 8300 was doing the same things as your ODN 8640. How is it now?

My guess (and who knows what's going on with them?) But TWC is interested in adding those two 3D channels, and I think this MIGHT be some national roll-out. (Great, instead of Keyword Search, we get this novelty crap.)

Unless, as this is the first report that I have heard of slowness outside of my division, and with the supposedly faster 8600 series box, maybe something big is coming for the guide, but again this is all speculation because TWC keeps everyone in the dark on what they're doing.

Did you talk to TWC? Did they say anything constructive beyond looking at a script?

Jack

Well, first I went by the local payment center to turn in the broke 8300HD. I had the CSR check their stock and they had one 8300HD, so I just did a swap. When I got it home there was a problem with trying to setup recordings for all the channels on one tier. So I had them send out a tech to look at that and the 8640 as well. The tech's opinion was that it was a problem with that individual box. He mentioned that it wasn't the first glichy 8640 he had seen. Unfortunately, he did not have any 8640s on his truck or I would have taken one just to see if it worked better. Anyway, I watched up the few things I had recorded on it and turned it back in. So, now I am back to the 8300HD. I have mixed feelings about it. I really liked the guide better in ODN. Having the original air date instead of just the year is useful and I liked the longer descriptions as well. And it did appear that 3.2 has both tuners buffering. But the 320 drive is really tight for me. I could manage with a 500.

I am curious if the fact that I was using the HDMI and RCA audio at same time had any effect on the 8640. I know some of the other boxes can act funny depending on what you have connected.

I did not discuss the 3D channels with the tech.
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post #12824 of 18035
7/9/10 at 10:36am
Quote:


I am curious if the fact that I was using the HDMI and RCA audio at same time had any effect on the 8640. I know some of the other boxes can act funny depending on what you have connected.

I have heard that many of the boxes (various models) do NOT play nicely with RCA cables, especially over HDMI set-ups. In this regard, you may want to consider something other than the RCA cable as an alternative set up.

Jack
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post #12825 of 18035
7/9/10 at 8:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satch Man View Post

I have heard that many of the boxes (various models) do NOT play nicely with RCA cables, especially over HDMI set-ups. In this regard, you may want to consider something other than the RCA cable as an alternative set up.

Jack

Go to this page here for our Wisconsin division, it has a good Navigator FAQ/Trouble Shooting section The FAQ/Troubleshooting tips are PDF files, (requires Adobe Reader or equivalent to view.) In one of those manuals it says something about using RCA cables could case a black and white image on the screen. I don't know the exact verbiage. But if they have that as an issue in the Navigator troubleshooting set-up, it is fairly certain to say that those RCA cables may be causing other troubles with the boxes as well. (Scroll about half-way to three-quarters down the page.)

http://www.timewarnercable.com/wisco...ble/navigator/

You can also find additional Navigator help in most cases on your division's Answers on Demand (AOD) channel. The tutorials are basic, but they do answer a lot of operation and set up questions.

Jack
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post #12826 of 18035
7/10/10 at 10:03am
I suspect the issue is more about which connector on the DVR is being used rather than the cables. Component connections use... RCA cables!
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post #12827 of 18035
7/10/10 at 11:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy View Post

I suspect the issue is more about which connector on the DVR is being used rather than the cables. Component connections use... RCA cables!

Good call Riverside!

Either that, or we have ANOTHER bad Oompa Loompa infested box! LOL!

Jack
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post #12828 of 18035
7/11/10 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satch Man View Post

Good call Riverside!

Either that, or we have ANOTHER bad Oompa Loompa infested box! LOL!

Jack

BTW, I just figured that I AM the Oompa-Loompa! I read it on the Internet... so there's NO hope (bwaaaa).
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post #12829 of 18035
7/11/10 at 12:13pm
So with regard to our Gators, has their been any sort of consensus among the best boxes?

A few thoughts:

What exactly is wrong with the Samsungs? Many techs say they are buggy. But I have heard a lot of customers like them.

We have the new 8600's in several instances acting slower than expected in some markets, but very fast in other markets.

The 8240HDC's and 8300HDC's have the slowness issues in some markets, and the early version sucked because they were not tested well combined with horrible Navigator early releases. Still seems slower than legacy MDN, but the reliability versions of the 8300HDC's seem to have been worked out.

Than we have legacy MDN 8240 and 8300 that techs still like and has been proven and tested probably because it's been put through its paces. Full E-SATA drive support too! MDN's biggest problem, the small internal drive.

When I checked our local forums for TWC-Milwaukee several months ago, it was reported that they were only giving out Samsung boxes and some 8240/8300 SA's. They might have still had some MDN boxes, but I am not sure. So are some divisions going to stick with what they have in inventory until the SA-8600's get deployed ranging from months to years down the road?

Some divisions may want to go through weeding out their inventory over a long, long, period of time, before ordering the newest model boxes.

What's it like for your division(s)?

Jack
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post #12830 of 18035
7/11/10 at 4:27pm
Oh man, I finally got to experience Navigator on some 2000 and 3000 series boxes this past week. I can fully understand why the surveys have people hating it. Navigator runs HORRIBLE on those boxes here! On a 3250, I hit B to Search and it was on "Please Wait" for over a minute!?!?!? That is totally unacceptable! Just navigating through the guide and menus is a time consuming chore! No wonder the masses here HATE IT and have voted such in the online poll. Many people have these older boxes deployed here.
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post #12831 of 18035
7/11/10 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenJF3 View Post

Oh man, I finally got to experience Navigator on some 2000 and 3000 series boxes this past week. I can fully understand why the surveys have people hating it. Navigator runs HORRIBLE on those boxes here! On a 3250, I hit B to Search and it was on "Please Wait" for over a minute!?!?!? That is totally unacceptable! Just navigating through the guide and menus is a time consuming chore! No wonder the masses here HATE IT and have voted such in the online poll. Many people have these older boxes deployed here.

Agreed Ben!

Navigator needs a good box to make it good to great. And Navigator can be good to great on a good box. (Well, Keyword Search is my biggest pet-peeve with regard to what Navigator doesn't have that it should!)

At any rate, customers should have an SA/Cisco 4000 series box if you are a non-DVR sub for Navigator to run well or a Samsung box (not sure of series number for the Sammy's, but the Sammys are fast.) Anyone, what is the series number for non-DVR Samsungs? I think it's 3000. Just remember, either a Samsung box or SA-4000 series box for best Gator performance.

If you have a Pioneer or SA box at or below 3000 running Navigator, you will most likely be tempted to switch TV providers, because it is so slow! TWC really should box swap ALL those older models with the later boxes!

Likewise Gator customers, if you are a DVR user, you will need an SA-Cisco box at or above SA-8240 for best Gator results or a Samsung DVR for best results. If you are running an SA-8000 DVR, it will be way too slow!

Ben, is(was) there an option for customers to update those boxes in the area where you tested the older models? What's kind of funny, was that Crazy Woody had an old Pioneer box, one of the first ones and when it got Gatored, it worked fast! (at his cabin.) He was like the only one with like a 10-year old box that worked well with Gator! LOL! But, than they pushed a software update and the Pioneer got real slow, like you experienced Ben on the older boxes.

You need a reasonably modern box (within 5 years) and good signal strength for Navigator to work well.

Jack
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post #12832 of 18035
7/11/10 at 5:12pm
Satch, people can exchange boxes, but most just don't get it and think thats the way the software is because SARA ran ok on those boxes. I'm hearing more of "I just want the old guide back" than anything else. I have explained to many people that they need a new box, but that generates another issue. Some people go and return an old box only to be given ANOTHER OLD BOX! I have specifically instructed my customers to request a 4250 or newer when they go.
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post #12833 of 18035
7/11/10 at 5:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satch Man View Post

Agreed Ben!

Navigator needs a good box to make it good to great. And Navigator can be good to great on a good box. (Well, Keyword Search is my biggest pet-peeve with regard to what Navigator doesn't have that it should!)

At any rate, customers should have an SA/Cisco 4000 series box if you are a non-DVR sub for Navigator to run well or a Samsung box (not sure of series number for the Sammy's, but the Sammys are fast.) Anyone, what is the series number for non-DVR Samsungs? I think it's 3000. Just remember, either a Samsung box or SA-4000 series box for best Gator performance.

If you have a Pioneer or SA box at or below 3000 running Navigator, you will most likely be tempted to switch TV providers, because it is so slow! TWC really should box swap ALL those older models with the later boxes!

Likewise Gator customers, if you are a DVR user, you will need an SA-Cisco box at or above SA-8240 for best Gator results or a Samsung DVR for best results. If you are running an SA-8000 DVR, it will be way too slow!

Ben, is(was) there an option for customers to update those boxes in the area where you tested the older models? What's kind of funny, was that Crazy Woody had an old Pioneer box, one of the first ones and when it got Gatored, it worked fast! (at his cabin.) He was like the only one with like a 10-year old box that worked well with Gator! LOL! But, than they pushed a software update and the Pioneer got real slow, like you experienced Ben on the older boxes.

You need a reasonably modern box (within 5 years) and good signal strength for Navigator to work well.

Jack

Your absolutely correct. Since TWC did a software update my pioneer box is slow as watching paint dry. When I get on vacation this summer instead of just weekends I am going to take my pioneer box at my beach cabin and trade it in. Anything they give me excludeing another pioneer has to be faster. Whats funny is that before the update my pioneer box was as fast as my MDN 8300hd I have at my main home. But not anymore. Soon my pioneer is history. WOODY
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post #12834 of 18035
7/11/10 at 11:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satch Man View Post

So with regard to our Gators, has their been any sort of consensus among the best boxes?

A few thoughts:

What exactly is wrong with the Samsungs? Many techs say they are buggy. But I have heard a lot of customers like them.

We have the new 8600's in several instances acting slower than expected in some markets, but very fast in other markets.

The 8240HDC's and 8300HDC's have the slowness issues in some markets, and the early version sucked because they were not tested well combined with horrible Navigator early releases. Still seems slower than legacy MDN, but the reliability versions of the 8300HDC's seem to have been worked out.

Than we have legacy MDN 8240 and 8300 that techs still like and has been proven and tested probably because it's been put through its paces. Full E-SATA drive support too! MDN's biggest problem, the small internal drive.

When I checked our local forums for TWC-Milwaukee several months ago, it was reported that they were only giving out Samsung boxes and some 8240/8300 SA's. They might have still had some MDN boxes, but I am not sure. So are some divisions going to stick with what they have in inventory until the SA-8600's get deployed ranging from months to years down the road?

Some divisions may want to go through weeding out their inventory over a long, long, period of time, before ordering the newest model boxes.

What's it like for your division(s)?

Jack

Well, unfortunately I am in a good position to supply my opinion on some of the questions you've posed...

My 3090 completely died last night (no signs of life at all... dead dead dead). So, dreading the possibility that I might end up with an 8300HDC - or worse, an 8300HD - I headed to the TW kiosk at the mall today to exchange the 3090. No 3090's were available, but they did have (only) two brand new 8640s left.

So now I have had all three of the newer generation boxes... Cisco 86xx and both Samsung 30xx and 32xx. Here are my thoughts on each:
  • Samsung 3090 - Despite some bugs early on, ever since it was updated to ODN 3.2 and stack version 4.3.5.3 back in January, it has been a nearly perfect performer... lightening fast menu and guide navigation and completely reliable in operation - great PQ, no audio issues, no HDMI handshake issues, no missed recordings. The only remaining bugs were relatively minor - the transport control lockup after extended pause (which was introduced with last updates) and inability to properly boot into Navigator correctly while connected to my powered-up Onkyo AVR. There was also the matter of the quirky-but-you-get-used-to-it FF/REW... more than balanced by the absolutely wonderful Samsung hardware diagnostic pages and the wealth of useful information they provide. Also to consider for the 3090 is that both 160 and 320GB versions are out there (but the 160GB versions are easily upgraded to at least 320GB)
  • Samsung 3270 - I actually have two 3260s, the non-DVR version of the 3270, but what I have to say about the 32xx either applies to both versions or is common knowledge/fact about the 3270. With three exceptions, the operation of the 32xx boxes is virtually indistinguishable from the 3090. First, and most importantly, the 3270 lacks PiP, which is a major issue to many of us. Second, the array of connections available are reduced relative to the 3090 (probably not a huge issue to most). Third, the HDMI handshaking is still not as reliable as the 3090... at best, it tends to issue HDCP error messages even when it appears to have succesfully negotiated with the display. At worst, it seems to occasionally cause brief bursts of "digital snow". The 3260 also has boot issues when connected to my Onkyo AVR, just as the 3090 does.
  • Cisco 8640 - This is the newest model and apparently where TW is heading these days. I hate to say it, but this seems like somewhat of a backwards step relative to the 3090. The biggest issue is that, relative to the Samsungs, it is painfully slow in guide and menu navigation. Operations that are instantaneous on the Samsungs have a noticeable delay on the 8640. Rescheduling all of my series recordings was a fairly painful process... very disappointing. On the plus side, I haven't noted any bugs... boots fine with my AVR, no HDMI resolution problems, nice smooth FF/REW. Personally, after more than a year of seeing the full 16:9 guide on the Samsungs (albeit a stretched version of the same graphics), the 4:3 guide looks really screwed up (although I do like the "floating" appearance of the info banner). I also miss the advanced diagnostics of the Samsungs along with their ability to be rebooted from the remote.
So... how do I rank them? To me, there is no question that the 3090 is the top dog (assuming you have the latest software updates in your system). Unfortunately, only a few systems have them available and AFAIK they are not made anymore. The 8640 is very close, but is marred by its significantly slower operation compared to the 3090. The 3270 is an also-ran... snappy performance, but no PiP and unreliable handshaking are deal breakers as far as I am concerned. It's easy to see why TW shifted back to Cisco when the 3270 became the only Samsung model available.
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post #12835 of 18035
7/12/10 at 1:39am
I personally think the speed of Navigator on the 8640 may be relevant to which version you have. Here, the MDN 8300HD runs smoother than the ODN version on my 8640 where logically the 8640 should smoke the previous generation boxes. There are reports of boxes that were running fine being brought to a crawl after a newer update was applied.

My main gripe about TWC/Navigator is that there are just too many versions in deployment. They should just stick to ONE version and rollout fixes/features for THAT ONE version in a timely manner.
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post #12836 of 18035
7/12/10 at 2:06am
The 3270 does have HDCP issues. The 3090 uses a different HDMI implementation than the 32xx boxes.
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post #12837 of 18035
7/12/10 at 2:10am
Pioneer BD-V1xxx boxes are the worst at running Navigator. Why anybody holds onto them, is beyond me.
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post #12838 of 18035
7/12/10 at 2:16am
4.3.5.3 isn't the Samsung Middleware. It's actually the RTOS version. The MW is v1124.

Cisco will now offer the Alticast MW for the HDC boxes. Maybe TWC will switch over to the Alticast middleware which will allow the Cisco boxes to have a widescreen UI, or is it for the next generation boxes that will be even more powerful than the ones out now.
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post #12839 of 18035
7/12/10 at 7:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenJF3 View Post

I personally think the speed of Navigator on the 8640 may be relevant to which version you have.

Very true... but among the "new" generation of OCAP boxes - Samsung 30xx/32xx vs Cisco 86xx - I find the speed of screen navigation in the 8640 to be noticeably slower than the Sammies. To me, the the 8640 feels very much like the my late production 8300HDC did... not terrible but certainly not completely delay/lag free as my Samsung experience has been. I really had expectations that the 8640 would be the equal to the 3090 in this regard and, sadly, it is not. As you noted, it probably will seem OK - slightly faster, even - to someone coming from an 8240/8300HDC.
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post #12840 of 18035
7/12/10 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcalabria View Post

Well, unfortunately I am in a good position to supply my opinion on some of the questions you've posed.

.....

So... how do I rank them? To me, there is no question that the 3090 is the top dog (assuming you have the latest software updates in your system). Unfortunately, only a few systems have them available and they are not made anymore. The 8640 is very close, but is marred by its significantly slower operation compared to the 3090. The 3270 is an also-ran... snappy performance, but no PiP and unreliable handshaking are deal breakers as far as I am concerned. It's easy to see why TW shifted back to Cisco when the 3270 became the only Samsung model available.

Good summary! Might have mentioned the 3090 can be field upgraded to a larger internal HDD.

Is the 3090 out of production from Samsung or is TWC just not acquiring any? Either way, the 3270 having no PIP does mean long standing features are being removed while rates continue to climb.
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