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post #17281 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

The MSO's have the FCC in their pocket. It's also called deregulation plain and simple. Big business doing what they want.CC works fine, SDV does not. Instead of concentrating on quality, they force quantity instead. Hundreds of overly compressed so called HD services that are no better than SD DVD quality (and usually worse). Constant breakup with fast pans, or excessive motion due to the limited bandwidth allocated to fit 10 lbs of crap in a 1 lb. box.

SDV is a command and control scheme that, in simplest terms, turns off the channels that nobody is watching. It has nothing directly to do with the bandwidth assigned to (and therefore PQ of) a particular channel when it is running. While they both are ways to shove more crap into the bag, the problems they can cause are different and independent of each other.

SDV issues are almost exclusively realized as the dreaded "Channel Not Available" message... the video equivalent of a busy signal. If you don't get those, you do not have an SDV issue. If you do, it's either because too many people are trying to watch too many different channels simultaneously (controlled by TWC by how many customers they have placed in a particular SDV Group), or... there are return plant problems that are preventing your box's request for that channel from ever getting to the headend. As often as not, the upstream signal path issues exist right in the customer's home and not due to anything under TWC's direct control.

As you noted, compression issues are the cause of the blocking and resolution reduction we all have seen. It can be bad... very bad. TWC does makes decisions as to how much bandwidth to allocate to a particular channel/stream, but it's a decision that stands apart from SDV. We've had some bad compression offenders here over the past year and a half, but the worst of them have been non-SDV channels.

You may very well have either/both SDV and/or compression problems, and I would never discourage you from complaining about them if you do... but don't blame the compression artifacts on SDV. Two separate things that TWC can screw up.
post #17282 of 18545
To get back to discussion of the Navigator Guide,

My most requested feature is to have the keyboards on all boxes (both MDN/ODN) search by keywords. A change of this nature will allow the customer to find exactly what they are looking for in a clear and direct way. Keyword Search also has the potential for a customer to find a "hidden treasure" of a show, which they would not have found by using the Title Search. Keyword Search, looks for all instances of search words typed that are in the system. Titles, Names, Actors, Descriptions can all relate to Keyword Search results. With a Keyword Search, whatever matches are typed by the customer WILL be found across shows, genres, descriptions, and people.

This feature will make the keyboards more useful, meaningful, powerful, and convenient for both customers and TWC employees.

Jack
post #17283 of 18545
My most requested search feature is to have some way of accessing the old Navigator search. For my needs, it was quite sufficient, and it provided searching with a video window present, and it always worked. Although the new search has gotten more reliable, I'm not yet confident that it will always work. And, it still is a full screen solution. I'm sure it provides more functionality than the old search, but that added functionality complicates things and is above and beyond my needs. I cannot say if I'm a "typical user" or an atypical one.

-barry
post #17284 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgcss View Post

There's a saying that goes something like "walk a mile in another man's shoes"
Until someone has actual experence with something for at least 6-12 months they are not qualified to comment on it. Simply quoting from a spec sheet or repeating what someone has complained about is not useful info to me. Live with Dish, DirecTV, Moxi, TiVo, etc before you claim one of them is "better than sliced bread"

No one seems to understand what I am trying to say.

My DVR isn't perfect, it has bugs, features that need improvements, features that I would like to see added. But every other DVR has problems. Moxi promised great things but fell so short they had to withdraw from retail. TiVo will go under when they run out of companies to sue.

Without ever living with another box for an extended period of time you can't say Navigator is the worst piece of garbage. Worst is relative, so you need long term experience with 2 or more devices to make a valid comparison.
post #17285 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgcss View Post

Without ever living with another box for an extended period of time you can't say Navigator is the worst piece of garbage. Worst is relative, so you need long term experience with 2 or more devices to make a valid comparison.
I agree completely. As I pointed out earlier: we visit our two daughters frequently. One has Comcrap (we are on the way there (St. Paul, MN) now, and the other (in Montgomery County, MD) has FiOS. I'll take Navigator any day to either (though, truth be tgold, I still prefer SARA). But that is based on functionality, ease of use and NOT on how "good" the stupid guide looks, or on some quest for the ultimate search function.
post #17286 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcalabria View Post

SDV is a command and control scheme that, in simplest terms, turns off the channels that nobody is watching. It has nothing directly to do with the bandwidth assigned to (and therefore PQ of) a particular channel when it is running. While they both are ways to shove more crap into the bag, the problems they can cause are different and independent of each other.
SDV issues are almost exclusively realized as the dreaded "Channel Not Available" message... the video equivalent of a busy signal. If you don't get those, you do not have an SDV issue. If you do, it's either because too many people are trying to watch too many different channels simultaneously (controlled by TWC by how many customers they have placed in a particular SDV Group), or... there are return plant problems that are preventing your box's request for that channel from ever getting to the headend. As often as not, the upstream signal path issues exist right in the customer's home and not due to anything under TWC's direct control.
As you noted, compression issues are the cause of the blocking and resolution reduction we all have seen. It can be bad... very bad. TWC does makes decisions as to how much bandwidth to allocate to a particular channel/stream, but it's a decision that stands apart from SDV. We've had some bad compression offenders here over the past year and a half, but the worst of them have been non-SDV channels.
You may very well have either/both SDV and/or compression problems, and I would never discourage you from complaining about them if you do... but don't blame the compression artifacts on SDV. Two separate things that TWC can screw up.
You took the words right out of my mouth!

TW in Rochester, has had SDV for quite some time, and for me it has worked quite well. I'd say that 60-70% of my TV viewing/recording is done from HD SDV channels and the only time that I had a SDV related problem was when TW installed whole house and the new 8742s had some issues with the return signals (cleared up on the 3rd Tech visit.).

I'd also vouch for the video quality (and I do know what I am talking about here) on SDV HD channels vs non-SDV HD channels. There is NO DIFFERENCE IN visual quality!
post #17287 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgcss View Post

No one seems to understand what I am trying to say.
My DVR isn't perfect, it has bugs, features that need improvements, features that I would like to see added. But every other DVR has problems. Moxi promised great things but fell so short they had to withdraw from retail. TiVo will go under when they run out of companies to sue.
Without ever living with another box for an extended period of time you can't say Navigator is the worst piece of garbage. Worst is relative, so you need long term experience with 2 or more devices to make a valid comparison.

I get your point completely and I don't think Navigator is the worst. It's average at best. Moxi pulled out because it's not a viable third party option in the same way Tivo is not. You can't use the full range of service (lack of VOD is the killer for us), they no longer have/had OTA, and need additional devices which can hamper reliabity. It was smart for Arris to go to a provider solution. I'd gladly take the Arris Whole Home and "walk a mile in it's shoes" for a year. You can bet I'd give an honest comparison and review of it. Truthfully, Navigator can be a great guide IF TWC puts the effort in, which it is unlikely they will do. Instead, they will drop a blog entry every now and again touting some great "new" feature that the competition had 10 years ago as if it's the next big thing. I stand by my claim that they will keep Navigator just good enough to get by. I hope they prove me wrong.
post #17288 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcalabria View Post


SDV issues are almost exclusively realized as the dreaded "Channel Not Available" message... the video equivalent of a busy signal. If you don't get those, you do not have an SDV issue. If you do, it's either because too many people are trying to watch too many different channels simultaneously (controlled by TWC by how many customers they have placed in a particular SDV Group), or... there are return plant problems that are preventing your box's request for that channel from ever getting to the headend. As often as not, the upstream signal path issues exist right in the customer's home and not due to anything under TWC's direct control.
 

How can I tell a SDV channel from a non-SDV channel? I assume you don't only mean On-Demand shows (but I'm guessing all those are SDV also).

post #17289 of 18545
Navigator oddities abound tonight with my 8742 with 5.2.0_9.

Just turned it on and everything was black. "Fringe" is in my DVR list, but doesn't show as an active recording but when selected it says it's recording and pressing play doesn't start at the beginning but goes to the current time. "Grimm" is still in my scheduled list yet it also says it's recording even though it doesn't appear at all in my DVR list. I presume I was seeing black at first because both tuners were in use, but why wasn't it showing what was being recorded and why are my recording indicators not present or even in the list correctly. Odd Odd Odd. Let's hope they both don't disappear at the end. Since Grimm wasn't even in my DVR list at all yet, I'm starting with that one. I feel a restart in my future.

later....

So now after the shows have completed, Grimm now shows in my DVR list. Curiously, the red record light is still on when nothing is recording now. This may have been triggered by a half hour show just before Fringe and Grimm that was recording a timeslot where the show was no longer schedule due to a later guide revision. Perhaps that confused things too much and is why we need the feature where the scheduled recordings get reprocessed after guide updates to remove items no longer airing.

even later...

After finishing Grimm likely due to tuner buffer, Selecting play on Fringe and Grimm from the DVR list immediately would go back to live tv and the recordings disappeared after rebooting. So nothing was actually recording tonight. WTF?
Edited by Kevin M. Dean - 10/5/12 at 7:44pm
post #17290 of 18545
"just good enough" is all that TWC wants because it's all that 99+% of their customers want/need
post #17291 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin M. Dean View Post

Navigator oddities abound tonight with my 8742 with 5.2.0_9.
Just turned it on and everything was black. "Fringe" is in my DVR list, but doesn't show as an active recording but when selected it says it's recording and pressing play doesn't start at the beginning but goes to the current time. "Grimm" is still in my scheduled list yet it also says it's recording even though it doesn't appear at all in my DVR list. I presume I was seeing black at first because both tuners were in use, but why wasn't it showing what was being recorded and why are my recording indicators not present or even in the list correctly. Odd Odd Odd. Let's hope they both don't disappear at the end. Since Grimm wasn't even in my DVR list at all yet, I'm starting with that one. I feel a restart in my future.
Do you have a multi-room set-up? So far TW has primarily only used 8742s in M-R set ups. If so the DVR to be recorded list only shows scheduled on THAT DVR, while the Recorded List shows programs on ALL DVRs. That includes programs currently being recorded.

There are some real idiosyncrasies in the lists for MR DVRs and TW has done their typical half-assed job in providing software for M-R.
post #17292 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Do you have a multi-room set-up? So far TW has primarily only used 8742s in M-R set ups. If so the DVR to be recorded list only shows scheduled on THAT DVR, while the Recorded List shows programs on ALL DVRs. That includes programs currently being recorded.

There are some real idiosyncrasies in the lists for MR DVRs and TW has done their typical half-assed job in providing software for M-R.

i don't have MR, I'm one of the few to get the latest box without that service.

I also updated my original post with the latest.... nothing actually recorded tonight.
post #17293 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

You took the words right out of my mouth!
TW in Rochester, has had SDV for quite some time, and for me it has worked quite well. I'd say that 60-70% of my TV viewing/recording is done from HD SDV channels and the only time that I had a SDV related problem was when TW installed whole house and the new 8742s had some issues with the return signals (cleared up on the 3rd Tech visit.).
I'd also vouch for the video quality (and I do know what I am talking about here) on SDV HD channels vs non-SDV HD channels. There is NO DIFFERENCE IN visual quality!

Good points Dave,

But how does one explain Ben's constant horrible Navigator experiences in Syracuse, with failed recordings, sound drop-outs, missed series, pixiation, along with other customers in his region, while other customers, like JC in the Charlotte area have few to no problems, and me in Wisconsin with no problems? It is likely a management thing in Syracuse, and more as well. What are they doing or not doing that is causing all of Ben's problems? I mean, asking this damn software to work properly across divisions isn't asking too much, right? Should TWC care at least how bad Navigator is in Syracuse New York and be focusing on getting all of their divisions reliable with video service? It's been six years and they can't do that right.

And what is behind the competition model where they know that they need to be better than just good enough for the guide? Say Tivo and Direct TV for example?

Jack
post #17294 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesla1856 View Post

How can I tell a SDV channel from a non-SDV channel? I assume you don't only mean On-Demand shows (but I'm guessing all those are SDV also).

Page 8/23 in the ODN diagnostics shows SDV / NON-SDV status of the tuner(s).

VOD is similar to SDV in that it sets up channel paths on the fly, but VOD adds server playback control. VOD also has its own independent pool of QAM carriers.
Edited by jcalabria - 10/5/12 at 9:56pm
post #17295 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by margoba View Post

My most requested search feature is to have some way of accessing the old Navigator search. For my needs, it was quite sufficient, and it provided searching with a video window present, and it always worked. Although the new search has gotten more reliable, I'm not yet confident that it will always work. And, it still is a full screen solution. I'm sure it provides more functionality than the old search, but that added functionality complicates things and is above and beyond my needs. I cannot say if I'm a "typical user" or an atypical one.
-barry

Barry,

Do you mean the way that they changed the A button? The B button has always been Title Search only for Navigator. Signature Home users get boxes with Advanced Search filters on them. But, I believe all searches would be simplified if results found all instances of what a user types. On both Passport and Navigator, you always have the video window in the right hand corner, which is nice.

Jack
post #17296 of 18545
jcalabria;
I didn't blame one on the other. I know how SDV is suppose to work and the purpose. The bandwidth problem is, as I stated; quantity vs quality. Too many not needed, or wanted features (services), not enough space. Also, unnecessary complexity that only leads to more problems. Who do they think they are? M$? rolleyes.gif

davehancock;
You are saying Verizon's FiOS DVR software/firmware is worse than TWC"s?? eek.gif
post #17297 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

jcalabria;
I didn't blame one on the other. I know how SDV is suppose to work and the purpose. The bandwidth problem is, as I stated; quantity vs quality. Too many not needed, or wanted features (services), not enough space. Also, unnecessary complexity that only leads to more problems. Who do they think they are? M$? rolleyes.gif
Well, SDV actually SAVES bandwidth - reducing the need for overcompression.rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

davehancock;
You are saying Verizon's FiOS DVR software/firmware is worse than TWC"s?? eek.gif
YES, I am! Just because they (FiOS) has fiber to the home, and greater potential bandwidth, doesn't make their software better.! wink.gif
post #17298 of 18545
I my self had a very good understanding of the Navigator Guide and what the software upgrade potentials are, this morning I had Direct-TV installed (whole house DVR with on-demand adapter) and all I can say is Wow..eek.gif TWC's Navigator is years behind. I am even working on making the guide I have now in my new company similar as possible to Direct's to give my customer's what they deserve...BTW my present guide and info is stil better than TWC's...rolleyes.gif
post #17299 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satch Man View Post

Barry,
Do you mean the way that they changed the A button? The B button has always been Title Search only for Navigator. Signature Home users get boxes with Advanced Search filters on them. But, I believe all searches would be simplified if results found all instances of what a user types. On both Passport and Navigator, you always have the video window in the right hand corner, which is nice.
Jack

They are installing the new search for all customers. If you don't have it yet it's probably because they are still testing and finalizing it...
post #17300 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by firemoth88 View Post

They are installing the new search for all customers. If you don't have it yet it's probably because they are still testing and finalizing it...

Any chance we might get it by next year?

Jack
post #17301 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by ybsane View Post

I my self had a very good understanding of the Navigator Guide and what the software upgrade potentials are, this morning I had Direct-TV installed (whole house DVR with on-demand adapter) and all I can say is Wow..eek.gif TWC's Navigator is years behind. I am even working on making the guide I have now in my new company similar as possible to Direct's to give my customer's what they deserve...BTW my present guide and info is stil better than TWC's...rolleyes.gif

Cool!!!!

Jack
post #17302 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satch Man View Post

Any chance we might get it by next year?
Jack

Be careful: you might get what you wish for. As you must know by now, I don't like the new search. It's complicated, works erratically (although, admittedly, it has been more stable lately), and is VERY HARD to use while watching another show. I do think that it does more of the full text keyword type of searching that you seem VERY desirous of. Call me a curmudgeon, but, for me personally, the full text stuff is not worth the complex and unstable interface.

-barry
post #17303 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by margoba View Post

Be careful: you might get what you wish for. As you must know by now, I don't like the new search. It's complicated, works erratically (although, admittedly, it has been more stable lately), and is VERY HARD to use while watching another show. I do think that it does more of the full text keyword type of searching that you seem VERY desirous of. Call me a curmudgeon, but, for me personally, the full text stuff is not worth the complex and unstable interface.
-barry

Hi Barry,

What I heard is that the new search system defaults to Title for show searches, and in feedback inquires I have asked many people that I know to have TWC change it so that it defaults to All instances of words typed in the search. Many users told me that a shortcoming is that it takes about six button presses to change the search from Title to All. Hopefully, when TWC mass distributes the new search system to all of the boxes, one of the following will have taken place:

1.) A software update sets keyword search settings to ALL (not Title) OR.

2.) Users can change the search options to a default setting of their choice. Like the Guide Filtering, propose that this setting for the search option (All, Title, Cast, Sports) will "stick" until the customer changes it..


In the meantime, I had to make a little keyboard tutorial showing users how to find sports through the current Title Search only keyboard system. (See my previous posts in this thread.)

What all this boils down to is I want the Navigator Guide to be able to do what Passport could do a decade ago. Hopefully, this is not an unreasonable request for TWC to accomplish this.

Jack
post #17304 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by firemoth88 View Post

They are installing the new search for all customers. If you don't have it yet it's probably because they are still testing and finalizing it...

It is not in Charlotte as of this morning, so where is it deployed..??
post #17305 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin M. Dean View Post

Navigator oddities abound tonight with my 8742 with 5.2.0_9.
Just turned it on and everything was black. "Fringe" is in my DVR list, but doesn't show as an active recording but when selected it says it's recording and pressing play doesn't start at the beginning but goes to the current time. "Grimm" is still in my scheduled list yet it also says it's recording even though it doesn't appear at all in my DVR list. I presume I was seeing black at first because both tuners were in use, but why wasn't it showing what was being recorded and why are my recording indicators not present or even in the list correctly. Odd Odd Odd. Let's hope they both don't disappear at the end. Since Grimm wasn't even in my DVR list at all yet, I'm starting with that one. I feel a restart in my future.
later....
So now after the shows have completed, Grimm now shows in my DVR list. Curiously, the red record light is still on when nothing is recording now. This may have been triggered by a half hour show just before Fringe and Grimm that was recording a timeslot where the show was no longer schedule due to a later guide revision. Perhaps that confused things too much and is why we need the feature where the scheduled recordings get reprocessed after guide updates to remove items no longer airing.
even later...
After finishing Grimm likely due to tuner buffer, Selecting play on Fringe and Grimm from the DVR list immediately would go back to live tv and the recordings disappeared after rebooting. So nothing was actually recording tonight. WTF?

I noticed some very similar things on my 8642 this morning with 5.2.0_9. Several programs set to record, one right after the other. Record light was on, program appeared in the list, but there was no Info associated to the program--things like scheduled times/descriptions did not appear. I tried to hit Play so I could watch while it was recording, and got a black screen. After the first program's window passed, it was no longer in the list--gone! It basically said it was recording when it wasn't. Then, the same thing happened with the following program. I unplugged the box for a hard reboot. The program in process at the time had a fraction recorded from like an hour ago. Then the next scheduled program began the record "normally", meaning the Info had returned and I was able to watch it while it recorded.
post #17306 of 18545
Well, apparently our division isn't on the 30 day turnaround for slow down as I rebooted last week. I clock the delay at 9 seconds last night tryind to scroll the guide. I love the command stacking and instant execution! It makes browsing the guide so much more fun. It's like spinning the big wheel on the showcase showdown on The Price is Right!
post #17307 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by ybsane View Post

I my self had a very good understanding of the Navigator Guide and what the software upgrade potentials are, this morning I had Direct-TV installed (whole house DVR with on-demand adapter) and all I can say is Wow..eek.gif TWC's Navigator is years behind. I am even working on making the guide I have now in my new company similar as possible to Direct's to give my customer's what they deserve...BTW my present guide and info is stil better than TWC's...rolleyes.gif

I agree with my respect for DirecTV's offering. Perhaps TWC needs to hire some of their engineers. When DirecTV parted ways with Tivo many years ago and started developing their own DVR software, it was rocky for a couple of years. Now, they have a very competent suite of guide/DVR software. TWC, many years after ditching Passport in my area, is still struggling with basic DVR reliability and usability issues. I've taken a lot of ribbing from my DirecTV friends over the years, and defended TWC for a long time, but I have to say I'm running out of excuses for them.
post #17308 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenJF3 View Post

Well, apparently our division isn't on the 30 day turnaround for slow down as I rebooted last week. I clock the delay at 9 seconds last night tryind to scroll the guide. I love the command stacking and instant execution! It makes browsing the guide so much more fun. It's like spinning the big wheel on the showcase showdown on The Price is Right!

Can I ask you something? Is this behavior/slowness you're seeing continuous? AKA "once it slows down, it stays that way for hours, causing you to re-boot" or does it slow down for a minute, and then behave normally again?
post #17309 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by ybsane View Post

It is not in Charlotte as of this morning, so where is it deployed..??

All I know from what my friend who is an employee told me, is that is is coming, starting with NY. I can also tell you that the process for rolling new things nationwide is pretty darn slow. I have also heard enough to say that TWC is not giving up on Navigator quite yet, contrary to what seems to be the popular belief in this thread.
post #17310 of 18545
Quote:
Originally Posted by firemoth88 View Post

All I know from what my friend who is an employee told me, is that is is coming, starting with NY. I can also tell you that the process for rolling new things nationwide is pretty darn slow. I have also heard enough to say that TWC is not giving up on Navigator quite yet, contrary to what seems to be the popular belief in this thread.

Firemoth,

And this will be for both ODN/MDN boxes? Any word on testing, how the behavior of the new search is going on the legacy boxes? Shoot me a PM, if you want to talk about anything in confidence. Thanks.

Regards,

Jack
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