Time Warner Cable Navigator - Page 62

Originally Posted by ncted

Well, there is always iTunes... Oh, wait! I meant Amazon Unbox. Er...maybe we'll do our own iTunes that will work with some TBD video player.

Ted

Originally Posted by nextoo

I'm sure you'll remember. So you have nothing to worry about.

Unless for some reason you have decided to worry about this for everybody else.

And if at any time you may not recall. Just ask.

If for some reason you feel compelled to insist on a profile format necessay for posting I suggest you appeal to the forum operators. They have obviously chosen not to make a specific profile format compulsary. Perhaps you can change their minds. Good luck.

In the mean time I may have some things productive to add -as it relates to Navigator. If so I'll post.

Originally Posted by nextoo

"Under this approach arrived at through private discussions outside of regulatory compulsion a small Tuning Resolver adapter could be made available to the UDCP consumer. With only firmware modifications to new UDCP products, and a USB 2.0 connection, properly equipped UDCPs could receive programming offered on SDV channels. Many currently deployed UDCPs, including TiVo DVRs, have one or more USB 2.0 connectors and might even be upgradeable with firmware for SDV.

Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy

Indicating cable/satellite service, equipment, software and versions along with location is not a requirement, but a COURTESY to others. Clearly you have adopted an opposite/antagonistic attitude, for which I thank you as I can now ignore you.

Originally Posted by ncted

I think the most important word here is "could." It shows up twice in this passage. It seems a bit hopeful to me to think that this will ever happen.

Ted

gjlp - Tivo has represented the fact that they are working on a "channel resolver" dongle that will make SDV available to Tivo subscribers. This development is in concert with cable providers. When this will be available has not been announced. My guess is that the representation is real. But again the timimg of its release is in question.

Originally Posted by ncted

I think the most important word here is "could." It shows up twice in this passage. It seems a bit hopeful to me to think that this will ever happen.

Ted

Tivo has represented the fact that they are working on a "channel resolver" dongle

In June, the FCC again asked for comments in another Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. The quote came from an 80 page document filed by cable (NCTA) in late August. The intent of that document was to thwart any action from the FCC that would detract from cable's current direction (implementing OCAP). The particular paragraph we are talking about here (re: TiVo dongle) was, in my view, a "play nice" statement, trying to show the FCC that they really are working with the CE industry to resolve issues. But if you read the entire document, you'll see that most of cable's arguments say that any change in direction proposed by the CEA would detract from cable meeting the goals of Congress and the FCC in achieving (cable's view) of Commercial Availability of Navigation devices. I for one can't but help wonder if this dongle approach is also one of the things that really have a low priority with cable because of their pursuit of OCrAP.

Originally Posted by Satch Man

My interpretation was/is that they higher ups at cable want to monopolize the industry with a universal approach to the OCrAP boxes and hardware. (Remember, TWC COULD have chosen to pay Passport the licensing fees for updated versions of their very stable software.) The problem is that in doing so they would have had to do the same thing to the Sara systems as well. So TWC would rather have one system in Navigator, with a 50/50 crap shoot as to its performance that they have total control over how it is programed, rather than paying out licensing fees to Passport and Sara for systems that may have a 90% reliability rate and are accustomed to the public. (Note that no system will EVER be 100% reliable. But Passport and Sara come as close as possible.) TWC sacrificed reliability with the Navigator software to save money.

Jack

Originally Posted by davehancock

It may be useful to understand the context of that passage: The FCC has been long (way too long, BTW) on regulations to FULLY enable consumers to purchase cable Navigation devices (such as TiVos). The original attempts (CableCards) have been a miserable failure, largely due to the lack of cooperation between the cable industry (and their R&D arm, CableLabs).

The recent (7/1/07) "Integration Ban" was just one piece of the overall issue. Many have considered the FCC actions there as a "warning shot" across cable's bow. This addressed "security", but the major issue remained: Interactive operation. Cable had been focused on a new "universal" approach, known lovingly to frequenters here as "OCrAP", and for awhile it seemed that everyone (cable & CEA was buying into it. However, the CEA wanted a "cheaper" approach, because they saw (as folks here are seeing with Navigator {an OCAP application}) that significant resources were required to successfully run OCAP. So in November, they issued a Proposal for a lower cost approach to the issue - an approach that had quite a few elements that cable did not like.

In June, the FCC again asked for comments in another Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. The quote came from an 80 page document filed by cable (NCTA) in late August. The intent of that document was to thwart any action from the FCC that would detract from cable's current direction (implementing OCAP). The particular paragraph we are talking about here (re: TiVo dongle) was, in my view, a "play nice" statment, trying to show the FCC that they really are working with the CE industry to resolve issues. But if you read the entire document, you'll see that most of cable's arguments say that any change in direction proposed by the CEA would detract from cable meeting the goals of Congress and the FCC in achieving (cable's view) of Commercial Availability of Navigation devices. I for one can't but help wonder if this dongle approach is also one of the things that really have a low priority with cable because of their pursuit of OCrAP.

Now, I don't follow the TiVo threads and such, and have no idea of what TiVo had said. But I DO follow FCC actions on several fronts quite closely. When nextoo posted that:I took that at face value and thus understood that TiVo had put out the word that this was coming (and I then questioned the value of their statement). They may well have, but the quote that nextoo posted was: 1) not a representation from TiVo and; 2) simply posturing by cable to thwart the CES proposal.

gjlp - Tivo has represented the fact that they are working on a "channel resolver" dongle that will make SDV available to Tivo subscribers. This development is in concert with cable providers. When this will be available has not been announced. My guess is that the representation is real. But again the timing of its release is in question.

Originally Posted by davehancock

Now, I don't follow the TiVo threads and such, and have no idea of what TiVo had said. But I DO follow FCC actions on several fronts quite closely. When nextoo posted that:I took that at face value and thus understood that TiVo had put out the word that this was coming (and I then questioned the value of their statement). They may well have, but the quote that nextoo posted was: 1) not a representation from TiVo and; 2) simply posturing by cable to thwart the CES proposal.

2) simply posturing by cable to thwart the CES proposal.

Originally Posted by davehancock

The recent (7/1/07) "Integration Ban" was just one piece of the overall issue. Many have considered the FCC actions there as a "warning shot" across cable's bow. This addressed "security", but the major issue remained: Interactive operation. Cable had been focused on a new "universal" approach, known lovingly to frequenters here as "OCrAP", and for awhile it seemed that everyone (cable & CEA was buying into it. However, the CEA wanted a "cheaper" approach, because they saw (as folks here are seeing with Navigator {an OCAP application}) that significant resources were required to successfully run OCAP. So in November, they issued a Proposal for a lower cost approach to the issue - an approach that had quite a few elements that cable did not like.

Originally Posted by nextoo

With OCAP it is the cableco's guide.

Originally Posted by DVRWOODY

The only thing I can say is that in Greensboro NC we are on SARA 1.89.17.1. It is a rock solid reliable guide with most (not all) Navigator features.If TWC could get Navigator as FAST and as RELIABLE as SARA they would have a winner.Until they do I will keep my SARA until forced to give it up thank you.Have only missed one recording in a year.SARA version of series manager has a LOT of recording options-more than Navigator seems to have.

Originally Posted by davehancock

Well cable certainly wants to "protect their turf". Some of the CES requests calls for cable to give up a lot of control. Their real concern is in being limited in deploying new technologies & business models. But that also means not going off in several different directions (which CES wants them to do).

RE: OCrAP. I believe that SARA costs them a lot less than Passport. SARA is supplied by SA, who makes their money from the boxes. Aptiv is strictly a software firm and the geneses of Passport was originally to adopt SA boxes to non SA systems. They need to recover expenses through fees, SA does not. The Integration Ban pushed things along a bit, and TW needed to use Navigator in the CC boxes because they didn't want to pay Aptiv. Apparently the costs of the CC compatible is a lot lower because SA makes their $$ from the hardware.

Originally Posted by Satch Man

Dave,

Out of curiosity, do you know what cable operators have paid for the Aptiv Passport updates? We had a poster who said in this thread if I remember correctly that they had things like Caller ID on TV, but it was different than Navigator? I think it was a Passport box.

Jack

Originally Posted by nextoo

How about this. Does this work? Does it pass the test? Is it acceptale to you? It's on the Tivo site so it obviously passed their legal.

http://customersupport.tivo.com/Laun...1-754c3260112a

Probably not. Oh well.

And there has been no guarantee from TiVo that this will happen. It would be one thing if TiVo guaranteed that this will happen by xx/xx/xxxx (or refund the full purchase price), but quite another to allow such hopes to propagate without loudly issuing appropriate cautions.

Originally Posted by davehancock

That goes back to my original statement:
There are clearly NO assurances from TiVo that this will happen! And when you advised gjlp that essentially TiVo had the solution I pointed this out. Others have pointed out the FCC doc has lots of "coulds" and "ifs" in it. I do believe that my caution still stands.

You may feel perfectly fine misleading gjlp because you are anonymous. I am not (anonymous) and don't want to mislead anyone. IF it happens, then great, but don't bet on it!

gjlp - Tivo has represented the fact that they are working on a "channel resolver" dongle that will make SDV available to Tivo subscribers. This development is in concert with cable providers. When this will be available has not been announced. My guess is that the representation is real. But again the timimg of its release is in question.

We expect the adapter to be available to consumers before switched digital becomes widely deployed.

Originally Posted by nextoo

Now again contrast this with some of the unsubstantiated conjecture your crystal ball seems to provide and who is misleading who?

And there has been no guarantee from TiVo that this will happen. It would be one thing if TiVo guaranteed that this will happen by xx/xx/xxxx (or refund the full purchase price), but quite another to allow such hopes to propagate without loudly issuing appropriate cautions.

Originally Posted by Satch Man

Dave,

Out of curiosity, do you know what cable operators have paid for the Aptiv Passport updates? We had a poster who said in this thread if I remember correctly that they had things like Caller ID on TV, but it was different than Navigator? I think it was a Passport box.

gjlp - Tivo has represented the fact that they are working on a "channel resolver" dongle that will make SDV available to Tivo subscribers. This development is in concert with cable providers. When this will be available has not been announced. My guess is that the representation is real. But again the timimg of its release is in question.

Originally Posted by davehancock

Again, my comment:

Guarantee: No
Date: No
Cautions: No
Too many other people to blame: Yes
Lot's of "ifs" and "coulds" in cable statement: Yes
Risk: Customers alone!

Originally Posted by nextoo

I'll try this again.

Originally Posted by BenJF3

I still can't figure out why they (Aptiv, SA,TWC) keep they PITA buttons of A,B,C! Go to a standard format of menu and select like everyone else! They must be in cahootes with Logitech or are making big bucks of "remote tentals". They could make it so much more functional by standardizing the system with other TV's, VCR's, DVD's, etc.

Originally Posted by Satch Man

Yea,

I don't even screw around with trying to program those things. I just do mine for the TV. We have a DVD/VCR combo unit and I have never been able to find a code with any remote that I have had that works with it. Using the remote that comes with the equipment that isn't TV related always seemed to work the best for me. People have had these issues for years.

Jack

Originally Posted by BenJF3

Yup, I had to buy a Harmony Remote because the TWC provided one didn't work ANY of my components!

Anyway, I'm hoping by the time we get Navigator that it's working at the pace my SARA is right now. I can deal with one or two missed recording a year.