Time Warner Cable Navigator - Page 66

Oh, this is a frequent occurrence, no matter what software you are running. Mostly I think the problem stems from the source... i.e. it's those "engineers" at ABC who are asleep at the controls (AND there is a very large chain there, from the network to the local station). I've seen it corrected dynamically, corrected after the next commercial break or last for 20 minutes before it got corrected.

The weirdest "asleep at the wheel" goes to CBS who managed the first 15 minutes of a Cold Case episode to have music and sound effects, but no voice mixed in.

Oh, I've worked at network, in ops and lemme tell you, the guys at the switches make a way good living, many guys pull six figures easily.

Uh, far as I know SARA does NOT do OCAP and Nagivator does, so there seems reason enough to dump it (corporate reason, not customer focused). Besides, you well know it's we Passport folks who are going to suffer the through public alpha testing!

2 cable cards mean they can decode 2 streams simultaneously. Essentially the same end result as 2 tuners in an older STB.

Your cable supplied box having CableCards (Are there really 2? Or just one Multi-Stream card?) has nothing to do with the Box being capable of receiving SDV (Switched Digital Video). Two things are required in the box to allow it to work with SDV:
1) Two way communication with the cable system (which all cable supplied boxes can do).
2) Appropriate software in the box (which TW's version of Passport does not do, but Navigator supposedly does).

Passport and SDV: An answer and a question:

In Northeast Ohio(at least the Akron system) we have SDV. All channels under 100 are digital(they have DD2.0 sound and the Diagnostics channel, the tuning section says they are QAM 256) They haven't said anything about it, I noticed better picture and discovered ch.611 when a tech was over. We have Passport and there was an update last summer. All the boxes from Pioneer BD-V1000s to 8300SD seem to work OK.

That leads to my question. Could an OCAP box run this version of Passport? Other Passport boxes are doing SDV. Also, I noticed the OCAP box loads in two parts: first the front panel say OCAP and a Scientific Atlanta OCAP screen is on with a countdown. After that, the L-13 countdown from Mystro comes on. Could Mystro/Navigator be switched with Passport and would that resolve recording problems?

I am missing something here - what does digital simulcast have to do with SDV? Sure SDV would help with the bandwidth - but the two don't have to go together.

xnappo

How do you know that you have SDV? There are lots of false signs.

SARA 8300hdc with 1.90 software does do ocap.Was told this by a TWC repairman working on my neighboros house.As far as he knew we would be on SARA at least 6-8 more months. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

In my neck of the woods, SE Wisconsin, the local HDTV forum contains posts that ESPN2 was the first HD channel offered in SDV. It showed up a couple of months ago. My Passport box picks it up just fine. So when reading the posts in the local forum this can lead one to believe that Passport can do SDV. But it leads me to believe that ESPN2 is not an SDV channel (which by the way is the case).

Why? The Navigator box I have picks up 20 SDV "test" channels. I can't remember the exact channel numbers but I think they are 1801 to 1820. The Passport box cannot tune in these channels. The Navigator box can. So the Navigator box can tune in SDV. The Passport does not.

TWC repairman is getting things mixed up: SA8300HDC can run OCAP OR SARA (or Passport).

Dave thats what I meant. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Now I'm really confused. A channel like 24 CNN on the digital box is digital. On a TV without a box, it comes in as analog. As for the "test channels", the Navigator box doesn't have any channels that are not on the Passport box. In my case it's the opposite. The Passport box has some channels like an interactive channel to view your bill and it's not on Navigator. So I wonder what the situation is with the channels under 100?
There also used to be digital versions of CNN, Weather Channel, A&E, USA, TNT, TBS and lifetime up in the 600s.

Strange. TWC of SE WI just enabled the caller ID feature on my SA8300HD running Passport (2.6.002). Why would they add a feature to a fleet of boxes if there is a plan in place to move them to Navigator. Seems a bit counter productive to add features to something that is, as far as TWC is concerned, at the end of its life cycle.

Well, xnappo alluded to this yesterday.

What you are seeing is called "digital simulcasting". Cable has been doing this for some time. What they are doing is sending out many (or even all) of their "expanded basic" SD channels BOTH in the original analog channel and also as a digital channel. Cable puts 12-15 SD digital channels on a single digital (QAM) channel, which takes the same space as just one analog channel. While the digital signal is not as sharp as the analog (depending on your receiver), it is more immune to noise, and is easier to record on a DVR. Further, if all expanded basic channels are digital, cable can use cheaper set top boxes (STBs) that have only digital tuners. This also is a mechanism for cable to migrate to an all digital system (though that is not the direction that TW is heaaded)

Your STB has a channel map function, that actually tunes in the digital channel, when you have asked for, what you think is, an analog channel. For example: Your CNN (cable channel 24) is 225Mhz on analog, and it's digital "clone" is on the QAM channel on 717MHz (for example), along with 14 other SD digital channels. The fact that the STB is tuning a digital channel at 717MHz instead of an analog channel at 225MHz is transparent to you.

This simulcasting is pretty independent of the particular cable boxes or operating software.

Test channels are also pretty independent of the boxes. Cable companies use them for different reasons. The most common use is when the cable system is migrating to higher frequencies to gain needed bandwidth. A 750MHz system is pretty common these days, but cable systems have been trying to upgrade to 860Mhz, and higher systems. Doing so requires lots of changes in the infrastructure (new amplifiers, taps, and at times cable). So they send out test channels so that they can fine tune the system in advance of putting actual program material there. Don't get too excited about this: it may take them YEARS before they have the whole system "up to snuff".

Wow!

Now THIS is interesting! When did you get it, Nextoo? Did the box just reboot and it was there? How do you activate it on your remote?

Jack

Caller ID shows up on channel 199. You go to channel 199 and there are a couple of settings that can be accessed. On/off. Banner duration.

I wonder if they had to throw it in because all of their digital phone marketing includes the caller ID feature.

And I thought we had problems:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=369113

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=369368

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=369178

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=369439

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=369374

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=369454

And on and on.

I guess things are tough all over.

We also have it now on our Passport box. Kind of cool. There was a voicemail on our machine that said that our area would be activated by Thursday. (tomorrow.)

Jack

Maybe they are abandoning Navigator? I doubt that, but it does seem weird they are adding new features to a supposed obsolete guide while Navigator users continue to suffer. Also, in our market last night around 3:30am boxes were reported to be spontaneously rebooting. I checked my guide here and no change in appearance. When I fire up my PJ later I'll check the current SARA revision and post accordingly.

Pajama-vision?

We should be so lucky...

Well,

Nextoo and I are in the same Wisconsin areas. I am just starting to think about this. We both now have TV Caller ID on the same Passport box. AFAIK, it is the older version of Passport. But look at the picture: In January (around the 3rd week) we get a form letter giving us a date within it that at least one of our boxes would be undated to Navigator. (But at that time, all we had was an old legacy Pioneer box.) The other two boxes that we DID have but since returned were buggy Pace's and SA's. Well (thankfully) that update never happened. What did happen around February was a Daylight Savings Time Patch between 3-6 am one night. I was nervous because I was SO SURE it was Navigator........but it wasn't, just the DST patch.

TW-Milwaukee kept promoting Navigator on TV, BUT when the problems started happening in Nebraska and the surveys about Navigator, which were available on TWC Milwaukee's home page, things got very very quiet. They kept pushing out the Passport boxes. I am sure that 70% or more of the survey responses were negative about Navigator and our division just hasn't been making a big deal about it over here. In fact, when we got our DVR box as part of the "All in One" upgrade, I asked the tech about Navigator and he looked at me like he didn't know what I was talking about! But the general consensus seems to be that things have been mute in Milwaukee about Navigator and the rollout has been slow. Of those customers that have it, there have not been NEARLY the problems associated with what I have heard about in other states.

Maybe we got lucky with our Wisconsin division, and our President does not want a roll out of Navigator until the software has its bugs worked out. Nationwide, the success rate for this product has been so horrible that it has been like putting the Titanic and Hindenburg together in terms of disaster. Why would the second largest cable company in the country want bad PR by risking a national rollout of Navigator? An IPG that obviously was NOT thoroughly tested before its release! In contrast, some divisions like Lincoln Nebraska don't seem to care, and a poster has indicated that they are not even running the latest version of Navigator. But there are STILL a huge number of TWC divisions that don't have this guide and maybe enough local presidents who saw this debacle and may not want it. Could enough local presidents complain to TWC headquarters insisting that this product may need another YEAR of testing before a national rollout?

Could you imagine how horrible a national rollout of Navigator would be in a major city like Los Angeles or something? TWC could face lawsuits for developing such poor software without proper testing. At least some divisions are trying to save face by not deploying it or doing it very, very slowly. Several boxes in some divisions have been recalled. I have heard that some Motorola DVR boxes with Navigator being tested on them were so crappy, that they didn't even make it out of the labs. Bad speculation and publicity with a large business has a way of becoming fact regardless of whether it is true or not. To my knowledge, there is no mandated timeline for a national Navigator rollout. The executives in the club may WANT a 1st Quarter 2008 rollout. But if Navigator's not ready by than, what are they going to do? Release this all over the country through overnight downloads and piss off MILLIONS of customers with a guide that can't even be predictable on a DVR recording? Too big of a risk and liability for TWC. If they do this, they could lose 60% of their customers.

Navigator needs to be recalled, reevaluated, worked on for a year in the labs, and than gradually rolled out to small populations AFTER ALL MAJOR TESTING has been completed on a division by division basis with very small representative random population samples. In the meantime, TWC divisions should pay any fees to Passport for updates, learn from these updates how to develop Navigator into a quality product, and just can the whole main stream rollout idea of Navigator for at least another year. There are so few people that are happy with this guide that it is just not worth the time and trouble of a national release, until the bugs have been fixed.

Jack

Great commentary Jack! I agree, I was writing to my national contact at Time Warner inquiring about being a beta tester for Navigator in our division. I suggested allowing me (a knowledgeable user) the opportunity to run the a unit through it's paces and report results/issues directly to the pertinent parties for resolution. I was suggesting running a Navigator box on one of my bedroom sets where I could mirror the programming with my SARA box on my main set. I could then compare where glitches occurred on one or the other. The response I got was that Navigator no longer requires beta testing because it has been successfully deployed in other markets. I found that response to be proof that there is a gross lack of communication between national and local divisions/reps. It's like I get a different answer from anyone I talk to.

On the down side, I called DirecTV today and wasn't really impressed with there offer. They just can't come close to the price point I'm getting from TWC. They want $200 up front for equipment and my monthly bill would be about $95 for virtually the same programming I get from TWC for $58. Granted I'd have the full package on each set and the expanded HD offerings, but it's just not worth the extra $30 a month. I'd also lose my HD locals and have to add an antenna to get them, but their SD receivers DON'T have ATSC tuners in them and therefore I'd only get the full spectrum of locals on one set. (We have overlapping markets that DirecTV doesn't carry). The lack of tuners coupled with the additional monthly fees is a deal breaker, so I'm hoping TWC gets Navigator working proper or leaves us with SARA and activates SDV to expand our HD line up.

Satch Man - perhaps a bit strong. As I posted above if you go to the tivolovers forum it makes Navigator look like a walk in the park. My Navigator box has not exhibited any real problems (SA8300HDC). Granted I'm only going into the third week with it but I'm sure there are others out there with no complaints. I'm not a heavy series recorder so maybe that is why. So Navigator may not be a total disaster for all users. As always the squeaky wheel gets the most attention.

As far as Passport I think we need to follow the money. Passport is an Aptiv Digital product. Aptiv is a wholly owned subsidiary of Gemstar TV-Guide. Gemstar TV-Guide is controlled by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp., according to a regulatory filing (41%). Which may not sit too well with the TWC folks. Just a thought but there are usually many less obvious things that may affect decisions like this.

In August News Corp entered into a deal to purchase the Wall Street Journal. Murdoch would like to maximize current investments (raise cash) as a result. Gemstar recently engaged UBS Investment Bank to explore options (which typically means to sell the company). So maybe the money path will change. And Gemstar may wind up with a new majority owner.

A bit off topic - sorry. But quite honestly there seems to be very few ground level Navigator users posting in this forum. Either some Navigator users are happy enough not to search out a forum to post problems or there are just not very many Navigator users out there to support a ground level users thread. The most prolific posters in the thread don't use Navigator. Nothing wrong with that but where are the Navigator users?

When I picked up my Navigator box recently it seemed like 8 out of 10 people in line were there to pick up HD STBs. None were there returning one. My guess is that most of the HD STBs handed out were running Navigator. Mine was. I know the Milwaukee HDTV forum has very little to say about Navigator. As more users get out there I'm sure we'll hear more.

Nextoo
Volume of posts aside, rest assured there are many disgruntled Navigator users. Informal polling here at my office suggests everyone is experiencing same problems, most just don't spend their time posting in threads like this. I've been providing a weekly diary since I switched. I've seen nothing to suggest improvement from TWC. My audio sucks, box hangs, box is slow, takes forever to reboot, etc etc.

I have not missed any recordings yet, thankfully, so I can't confirm what others have seen in that regard.

I'm pretty knowledgeable user and it took me a while to find this thread...I mean there are many variations of TWC DVRs and software....its not like there's a big ad in the paper saying post problems with Navigator here->.

I've been using Navigator for about 6 weeks. Had issues with "channel not available" bug, replaced box after two weeks, issue has not returned. Had (probably still have) issue with things being deleted even though there should be enough space, and gas gauge is off. Other than that, no reliability issues. Audio's fine, box does not hang, nor is it slow (8300HDC), and I don't care how long it takes to reboot (7 minutes or so) as I do not reboot it, and it does not reboot by itself, either. Interface is somewhat user hostile, but tolerable. Overall, the Navigator is far from good, but it is servicable. Now, if TivoHD was a really reliable alternative (no issues with software, no issues with cable cards and it worked with SDV), I'd seriously consider it, even if it had nothing over Navigator except 30 second skip. Of course, a professional grade DVR has a lot more over Navigator (my almost 10 year old ReplayTV is a model of user-friendliness compared to it). There are a host of inconveniences with Navigator, but they are not deal-breakers for me. Also, it is quite convenient that, when the box is flaky, you can get a new one the next day, no questions asked (maybe I was lucky with the TWC people I delt with).
So, Navigator is not all gloom and doom, but, in my book, it has a long way to go to be considered more than just tolerable.

Great post. Thanks for the contribution. I agree.

Navigator has a long way to go. But the platform may have a bit of promice.

although I'm generally in the lukewarm "it's okay, I can live with it" camp regarding Navigator, my box went haywire twice in the last 24 hrs...

Last night, while it was taping two network HD shows simultaneously (notice how I discreetly avoid mentioning what pathetic shows I tape), I turned the machine on to watch (one of those two shows), and got to see about 1 minute before the screen went blue with a notice saying "to subscribe to this channel, call 718-whatever" or something like that. Hmm? Turned to the other channel, got about a minute of that, then got a blue screen with a differently worded but equivalent message. Being careful to stick to the two channels being tapes, swapping back and forth I could get a minute or so of each before the box again reverted to the blue message screen. Oh well - watched a couple of other pre-recorded shows, which worked fine, and later, when all recording was long done, I tried again - any and all channels would give me a minute and then crap out to blue.

Hard reboot later, everything was fine - and at least one of the programs recorded during the malfunctions came out perfect. Don't know about the other one yet - it shows up as recorded, but have bot yet watched.

This morning, I switch to HBO OnDemand, notice that the little advertising box in the top right is not scaled - it's shown in full size, but I can only see the top quarter since the rest is concealed by the program options. Hmm? Open up the Guide, browse to 702 and hit Select - wham, program options are gone, now it's showing the full-screen HBO OD advertising. Try to get back to guide - won't go. Type in 1 to go to local SD - won't go. Channel up/down - won't go. Power on/off - nothing responds - Navigator is stuck on the HBO OD advertising spool, in full-screen.

Hard boot later, everything was fine again.

I still feel it's workable, but there is no doubt this device is *not* ready for production - it's a very flaky beta product.

Good topic,

I guess that the Wisconsin divisions that have Navigator MIGHT be having less problems overall. Having said that, I will still say that the following are true:

1.) The upgraded guide was rolled out too fast.

2.) There are still needed improvements to bring it up to a quality level. (For many, who are paying $65-$200 a month for cable, something like a new updated guide needs to be a lot more than tolerable.) An upgrade should be at least at a B+ level, with the potential to get to an A as improvements and enhancements are made. It seems that Navigator is probably at a C+ in the good markets with less problems and a D in other areas. At least, there have been improvements from the solid F that most would have given this software back in January. There have been improvements, but not enough of them for the number two cable system in the country.

3.) Time Warner has had grade A success with Passport and Sara IPG's, as well as Digital Phone and Road Runner. Hire quality programmers and software developers for Navigator, and the potential for that guide could get up to I'll say a "B." on average. Not an "A" yet, because the software is too inconsistent from division to division. This is going to take time for Navigator to reach its potential. LOTS OF TIME.

How about this? Everyone indicate your TWC location and if you have Navigator, give it two to three grades:

A. If applicable, give Navigator a grade if you were one of the early people to get it From September '06 to April '07 (What grade would you give Navigator if you got it during these months?) If you got Navigator AFTER April '07, skip this question.

B. What grade would you presently give Navigator based on features/functionality? If you answered question A, how much of an improvement has occurred? (i.e how much have the updates helped?)

C. For future potential to be a strong product, how would you rate Navigator? (This is speculation on this question.)

Add any comments.

Jack

Heinriph
Add me to the list of "blue screen while taping 2 shows"...its happened 2x and I forgot to mention it.

Nextoo
Its swell that you're enjoying your unit. However that's faint praise. Now matter how much lipstick you put on it, its still a pig. This is an ugly, cheapo solution that was rushed to market so they could move to SDV without paying Aptiv or the like.

Don't offer false hope to those reading this forum. This thing wouldn't even make a very good boat anchor!

I'm moving to Tivo as soon as they offer the SDV dongle, hopefully soon.