Time Warner Cable Navigator - Page 101

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that ALL of the SA boxes are complete crap. I've had 3 8300HD's that have all had tiling and audio dropout issues, had Crime Warner out 4 times to troubleshoot it, tried the HDC, same thing and all the problems with the Crapigator software...I am this close |-| to dropping this crap for satellite. Recorded biggest loser on tues. and audio dropouts and tiling happened every 10-15 seconds, happens on all the HD channels, unwatchable.

Peter, I think you may be mistaken about SA/Cisco. They do not make the Navigator software. Time Warner decided not to use the proven SA or Passport software in lieu or designing and coding their own. Therein lies the bulk of the problem. I have an SA 8300HD DVR with Scientific Atalanta based SARA software and it is extremely reliable.

Now, the new OCAP boxes on the other hand could be an issue here, but the jury is still out on that. Until some posts saying Navigator is running fine on a non-OCAP box, we just won't know. It's very easy to blame the vendor/machine for garbage software. I mean, right now my computer runs great. However, if I were to replace my XP with Vista it would suck. Same machine, different software.

EDIT: Slick, you have an 8300HD (NOT 8300HDC) that is running Navigator? If so, you just proved my point above about the software!

No currently, I have the HD with Passport after exchanging the HDC Navigator box...

Hardware is at least some to blame as: 1) Navigator has different issues (or no issues at all) depending on a box (with the same version of Navigator) and 2) some SARA users and Comcast users have the same types of problems we've been having with those HDC boxes.

I'm not a techie. But I'm also not a novice.

I once told a teenager that I was the last living member of the "slide rule" generation. He asked: What's a sliderule?

My first Apple II had 64K of memory and only capital letters. I could program in Applesoft basic, and later, I learned to use DOS fairly well. So working with this stuff does not scare me.

I have some idea how to diagnose problems and I can follow instructions.

In part, it is the randomness and lack of reliability of the SA8300HDC coupled with the software that frustrates me.

Last night, it took about 15 seconds for channels to change. A reboot fixed the problem. Then, very late, I found I had tiling and dropout every three seconds on HD recordings (fortunately, I've learned to also record my HD network programs directly from the cable onto analog TIVO for backup). The problem did not happen watching HD directly or on the TIVO, only when recorded which means some sort of a HD issue.

Another reboot fixed that problem.

I have no idea what I'm going to find tonight after the firmware "upgrade".

So I still don't know ... do I have another defective box? Or is the software so bad that it can interfere with HD recordings and channel changes? Or is the issue something to do with the box output where changing to component video input to my TV would help?

Thoughts?

I posted this last month showing examples of problems associate with cable users that are using the SA8300HDC boxes. These are non TWC customers who are not using Navigator. The symptoms are very similiar and in some cases identical to many of the Navigator complaints witnessed in this thread.

The examples I used where primarily from Comcast customers using the SA8300HDC. Comcast does not use Navigator. In many cases these customers are using the SARA EPG. So if A = B and B = C then based on logic A = C. Not D. Or what somebody would like D to be.

As I said in the post Navigator is a work in progress. But so are all of the other moving parts associted with the SA8300HDC boxes. Here it is:

Contractor came by this morning with a 8300 HD Passport box; so far so good. Gave me a new remote as well. I guess the OCAP rollout in the Triangle is not universal....

Strange thing is that if you leave the box on and go to bed, the same thing still happens. It's only if you leave the box AND the TV on that it will continue to work, and that's really not an option.

As I stated in my post, I don't believe these are completely Navigator issues. However, no one has an 8300HD running Navigator that can report on it and prove otherwise. I'd like to see if Navigator runs on a non-OCAP box without issues. Then we can rest the blame squarely on the equipment.

I would not say squarely on the equipment but two months ago the equipment was cavalierly dismissed as a contributor to the problems. The blame was put squarely on Navigator. Naively.

There is simply to much cross pollination of similar if not identical complaints contained in "closed populations" (i.e. Comcast TWC being mutually exclusive) for the SA8300HDC not to be considered the primary suspect. The common variable between the two closed populations.

One thing has been established within the TWC population though. That is the SARA version that runs on the SA8300HDC suffers from many of the same problems reported by Navigator users. So if SARA has problems within both the "closed" Comcast and TWC populations on SA8300HDC boxes then from an extremely simplistic perspective you have a choice of the SA8300HDC or SARA being the problem. My choice would not be SARA. As it is not Navigator. My choice is the SA8300HDC.

Well nextoo, maybe we will get some relief in the new Cisco box that should be hitting cable providers this spring. I don't doubt the 8300HDC is related to the problem and that's another reason I stayed with my 8300HD. I would like to try one of the newer MPEG 4 boxes when they are released.

No, I wouldn't want TV on all night either. Try switching to component, then it will not know you turned the TV off.

I have read recently in different forums comments about "they said they have to upgrade the cable card firmware" or "after they upgraded the cable card firmware things got better" - loosely quoted. Or it could be a bad individual cable card. Or different versions of cable cards installed in different SA8300HDC boxes. So it may be possible that even with the existing boxes things could become more stable. Either way there are stable problem free boxes and unstable boxes within the same TWC area so it is tough to say that it is all SA8300HDCs in the aggregate. Not sure.

Also consider that there have been reports in this thread that after a few box swaps everything worked fine - or better than before when using an unstable box. In these cases the version of Navigator stayed the same and things got better with the different box. Again the dynamic variable being individual SA8300HDCs.

In either case it is a mess for those affected. In my case my first box was stable. So there was no pain. But for those with Navigator on stable boxes Navigator shouldn't get a get out of jail free card. It is a work in progress and far from being an excellent EPG. That being said it is not as bad as it appears to be when throwing in all of the issues that may be the result of the SA8300HDC.

I wonder what SA's reputation currently is with all of the problems with these new C boxes? It certainly can't be good! Is the change to Cisco a company take-over or SA just changing its name? I am sure that regardless of the cable company, SA is just passing the buck on to them or the FCC because of the mandate for integrated cable card C-boxes after the July 1, 2007 deadline. Translation: "No bureaucratic company wants to take responsibility for their own mistakes."

Questions to continue to consider in all of this:

1.) Why does it appear that better performance is coming out of the Non-DVR C boxes than the DVR C-boxes? While it is easy to say, "Well the DVR is so much more complex." But, that is still a poor excuse for a product that is such an important part of the cable system, especially when people are paying $100-200+ a month.

2.) What has been the performance of SARA and Passport on a C-box and C-DVR?

3.) How is Navigator performing on the non-C boxes and non-C DVR's?

4.) Do any TWC divisions (other than Lincoln Nebraska) who's Navigator performance seems to have greatly improved from last year's disasters have Navigator on the non-C DVR's yet?

5.) Do any TWC divisions have updated Passport or SARA software on C-boxes or C-DVR's?

6.) If the C-boxes are the culprit over the IPG software in all of this, what thing or things in the C-boxes are causing the crap outs on the C-boxes, and who is responsible for fixing these problems?

7.) If Navigator is supposed to eventually be a universal product with its functions and features, why is it that their are some divisions that have features that other's don't have? Most requested seem to be:

A. Keyboard keyword searches. (Not just titles) This was offered by Passport and should be reinstated in all Navigator divisions.

B. More options for series recordings, such as:

1. The ability to save fewer than 3 shows per series, which is the number set by Navigator through default.

2. The ability to record a series by blocks of time and the ability to control what channels a series will record through expanded options. (Although I think Lincoln Nebraska got a Navigator upgrade that includes some of these features.)

The rollout for Navigator to non-C DVR's here in Milwaukee Wisconsin) is expected to be completed before the end of first quarter. This seems to be the trend for other TWC divisions as well. So much will be known at that time (at least in Milwaukee) that the reasons for the problems may begin to narrow down as other divisions follow suit. Keep in mind that there are thousands and thousands more non-C models of boxes and DVR's that have been around for 5 years+ compared to the new C-boxes. If the IPG rollouts, regardless of the software used, show little to no problems with the non-C boxes, and DVR's, than it almost HAS to be the C-boxes that are the problem. In that case, who would want a C-box after all of this? Thanks to the FCC for getting involved in the mandate of these new boxes, (if these are the problem) when they should have left things alone.

Jack

I questioned the importance of the July date and the affect it would have with new boxes going out with cable cards. The FCC ruling was originally made years ago in an attempt to motivative companies to enter the STB business and allow consumers to purchase their STBs at retail. But it became obvious that no company wanted to enter the retail market (Tivo did jump in). As a result the "open" STB idea seemed meaningless. Why should a cableco be forced to deploy a box with cable cards. The response was that the cablecos have been dragging their heels for some time with cable cards and that it was time for the cablecos to "have to eat their own dog food". I'll never forget that response.

Unfortunately the customers are the ones eating the dog food.

Thanks for the response Nextoo,

Now that you have posted this response, many more won't forget it either!

Jack

Just wanted my new signature to be seen!

Jack - yea I know. In my opinion both the cablecos and the equipment manufacturers are at fault. The cablecos because I think they thought they were going to get another waiver and the July 07 date would get pushed out once again - as it had been done historically. And the equipment manufactures for not being ready as well. Comcast had an active appeal going as late as June if I remember correctly.

edit - and the FCC. The FCC could have recognized that there was no retail market emerging. Mandating a cableco to use an open STB with the current available technology - cable cards - along with the added costs that just get passed on to the consumer might be considerd a bit oppressive especially when the consumer gets caught in the middle. I think it was more of a penality imposed on the cableos for again dragging their heels on cable card development. The cablecos told the FCC they were not ready and I think they meant it. And appealed for a waiver until Open Cable could be implemented thus avoiding the hardware cost and implementation costs of cable cards.

As a result times are tough all over the cableco landscape as it relates to customer satisfaction and the cable card boxes. At least that is what seems to be happening. Add to that the introduction of an new EPG, Navigator, on HDC boxes and it is a real confusing mess.

Things seem to be very quiet in SE WI. But quite honestly I haven't been paying much attention. As posted I left TWC in November.

As an aside. It looks like the natives are restless over in the Comcast Tivo thread. Not happy. And the Tivo installation I think is on boxes without cable cards. I'm interested in how Navigator does on the older boxes. Different flavor of Navigator but interested none the less.

I agree with the above posts. I thought the same thing myself. WHY? Why do cable companies need to deploy an STB with a cablecard? It makes no sense whatsoever since they control the equipment. Only third party manufacturers who sell to the public should be required to have the cablecard. I mean, I get the OCAP standard and how they want to have a situation where Joe Schmo can buy his own STB that must be capable of downloading and running on the providers system. People can blame cable here, but I fault the FCC for instituting bad policy. Once again the consumer has to bend over and take it.

Yeah, I've tried that----no success unfortunately. Going to maybe try a third box, but I'm not too optimistic.

My SA8300HDC with TW Navigator has interrupted live TV and recordings at least twice that I know of to download some sort of cable card update. It may have done so more often but not while I was watching or recording a program.

Even Microsoft has the courtesy asks if it is OK to restart your computer so that you have time to complete what you are doing.

These people really need a lesson in how to deal with the consumer!

I had previously tried keeping the box on (I'm pretty sure with component, at some point around that time I also was switching back and forth between component and hdmi). With no success either.

As PedjaR referenced, I've contacted Western Digital to ask if there is a way to defeat the spindown/sleep function within the drive. I haven't heard back from them yet. I did find a utility where you can go in and look at the drive settings and change them - however this drive won't allow me to change the sleep timer at all.

BTW: I already tried another machine - it's doing the same thing.

Here's the workaround that has been working for me for 2 days now:


I setup to record the TV Guide channel as a series. It comes in 3 hour blocks, and I set the recording options to only keep three episodes... so it doesn't clutter up my recorded list. Doing this channel as a series will actually record everything on that channel 24/7.

I then went into the Show List\\Scheduled Recordings\\By date and looked for any conflicts. I then 'resolve' any conflict by removing that particular TV guide recording (click on the show showing the conflict and follow the prompts). I haven't yet gotten to a time that I did this - so I don't know if I will need to go in and reschedule a couple of hours somewhere... I don't know the spin down time of the drive etc.. so we'll see.

Also, you'll need to go into this every few days and check for new conflicts as the new days come into the scheduled recordings.

So far however, this has worked successfully for me.

All of a sudden my recorder will not record anything. I press record...the guide shows the program in red...the list show nothing saved....the log indicates:
"Will not record because the channel is not available (2)

Does not matter what channel....any ideas+

thanx Dennis

That's a known bug, most likely indicating bad box. For some people (very few, certainly not me), it disappeared after cold reboot (unplugging). For most people, time to replace the box (helped me). Might get different issues with the new box, so keep replacing until you get one where you can live with the issues. Or switch to satelite. Best case scenario would be to get an HD instead of HDC box, but that's a long shot, plus it is likely that all HD boxes in circulation are returns; maybe they were returned for a reason.

Oh, that's a pain, but at least it works
So, it gets new new day guide overnight while recording? Wonder what it will do if it needs any update since it is running with no down time at all. You might want to give it a manual reboot every few days, just in case.

The point is that in that case, cable cards would never work right. Forcing cable cards on cable companies as well levels the playing field - if third party companies have to do that, and cable companies don't, that would be a huge advantage for cable companies. Also, if cable companies are forced to use cable cards, then they have to make sure that the cable cards actually work; third party companies could never have enough influence for that. Apparently, cable companies did not quite make it happen, either, even though it is costing them customers. There is really no excuse for that.
That's why I am reluctant to believe that the SDV dongle for Tivo will work right for a long while; the only party that really needs it has no control over it. The others are beiung forced to do it against their interest (which serves thenm right, as SDV basically defeats the spirit of the FCC thing by making third party stuff impossible to work). Maybe FCC wil force cable companies to use the dongle as well

Don't even joke about that! Look how bad cable card worked out for us.

That's a good idea... I'll do that. I'll check back in here when I hear from Western Digital

That they do Peter!

But at least they are updating the cable card technology, which may be the crux of so many of the problems with these new boxes. A question, did you actually get an onscreen notification that cable cards in the boxes were being updated on your box, or did you call and the CSR or voicemail said that was what they were doing?

Jack

Yes, it was an onscreen notification after which the box restarted beginning with the word "boot" on the box display.

The recordings were stopped and restarted some 15 or so minutes later with a new recording of the rest of the program.

p