Time Warner Cable Navigator - Page 19

You can't use an 8300HD DVR with Motorola software. However, my son has Charter Communications as a provider, and they are using the Scientific Atlanta 8300HD's as their standard-issue DVR. You might try calling Charter and asking whether they also offer, or plan to offer, the 8300's in your area. You might also ask if the Motorola boxes have SATA ports that have been activated. That way, you could use an external hard drive for increased storage space. If the Moto boxes have firewire or USB ports, ask if either of them will work with an external hard drive. The worst they can say is "No."

Otherwise, the information from UnnDunn is correct.

Scarlett

If you have a Motorola set top box, that means your local cable head end uses Motorola hardware and infrastructure systems, meaning they are incompatible with SA equipment and the 8300HD will not work on your cable system. If you want your own DVR, go with an old Sony or LG unit, or get a TiVo.

If you're in the USA, and considering buying an SA8300HD from ebay or anyone else, then it will not work with your cable company and is also most likely stolen.

Not necessarily, in fact, I've seen MANY Moto and SA HD DVR's up for re-sale, and i don't think i've come across one unit yet where i suspected it had been "stolen" from a cable system.

Since these units are widely available for purchase in Canada, why would it be so hard to believe that they might make it down here too (they're not confiscated at the border as contraban), even though they have little use because of our cable operators.

But yes, the possibility of getting a stolen box is still out there, so be careful what you do.

It makes no difference: no US cable company will authorize the box. Partly because they do not want to encourage boxes which "may" be stolen. But there are other good business reasons as well.

I'm not talking about Canada (where some of the cable companies offer their DVRs for sale or for rental), i'm talking about the USA where cable DVRs are not offered for sale to individuals (unless something has changed). If he's buying it from a USA seller, it may or may not be stolen but regardless it will not work on any USA cable company's network.

I used to track a lot of EBay auctions for SA8000HD/SA8300HD cable DVRs and a lot of the USA-based sellers were guys who were re-selling them after buying them from other EBay sellers (some Canadian, but mostly USA) after discovering the hard way that they could not get it to work with their cable company. So they turn around and screw the next guy by re-selling it on EBay and claiming that it will work with any cable company and bullcrap stories on how they came to be in possession of it.

So far, nobody i've corresponded to nor anyone on the SA8000 maling list have ever gotten an EBay or Craigslist DVR to work on their cable network.

Not so, i've heard at least one story of someone who was INDEED able to set up a privately purchased Motorola DCT 641x HD DVR with their US cable company. I do not remember which cable company or which market, and i believe there may have been special circumstances (the person had cable co. 'hook ups'), but again, this HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE.

When i was referring to Canada, i simply meant that since they are LEGAL to purchase there, any unit in the US COULD have come from Canada, and thus there's just as much of a chance that a unit was legally purchased as there is a chance it was stolen from a US cable provider, i'm not saying that the situation here is just like in Canada.

And Randy, you may want to re-phrase your wording on that. These units WILL IN FACT work on US cable companies systems, but in ALL liklihood, they will not authorize the box if it didn't come from them, but technically they are capable of operating on currently installed infrastructure, heck, that's what they were built for.

That is rare - I've followed these (and Yahoo threads) for quite some time and have never seen a report of this happening. But, you never know, so I would sure be interested in details.


Yes, and this "Canadian loophole" is likely why e-bay continues to allow listing them (and why people get "sucked in").


A fine point indeed. But you do recognize that a Moto box WILL NOT work on a SA infrastructure and vica versa, don't you (unless the cable company has license for the appropriate software)? Besides the issues of customer acquired DVRs being likely stolen, the cable companies have other issues: 1) System Compatability - the SA box in a Moto system; 2) billing: how does cable get paid for the DVR service? a) Charge the regular rates? (Might as well just get the box from them.) b) Set up a new "DVR Service Fee", somewhere between the regular rate and nothing? (Probably not sufficient demand to bother.); and so on.

But we all seem to agree with:

Yes, I recognize the differences between markets using Motorola and Scientific Atlanta hardware, and that Moto infrastructures require Moto STB's, and vice versa, however, it's relatively easy to determine what system your local head end uses (just look at your STB if you have one) and there are ONLY two systems used in the US, so you either need an SA 8300HD or a Motorola DCT 64XX.


I do have one reservation about this statement, and that is, I really don't believe that there are too many "stolen" cable STB's that are being sold out there. These STB's are WIDELY and LEGALLY available for purchase in Canada, and obviously those units are fairly available for purchase by US customers (but again, there's a good chance it won't pay off), so wouldn't it make sense that the MAJORITY of the STB's available for purchase would be legally owned units? If there were more stolen US boxes available than legal Canadian boxes to US residents, then it would mean that people are stealing their cable STB's LEFT AND RIGHT here in the US and i doubt the cable companies would still be in buisness if this type of quantity were to just disappear.

Other than that, i completely agree with you.

Regardless of the situation, it's always best to just lease a box from your cable company, or move to satellite (but i guess these days you have to pay large up front fees just to LEASE the sat receivers for an additional monthly charge ).

Well, we will just have to COMPLETELY disagree here - let's leave it at that and let this thread stick to that crappy Navigator.

Crappy navigator it is

Actually, I am curious about the overall installed base. As in percentage of users w/SA equipment or Moto equipment. BUT, aren't there Pioneer units out there doing the same sort of duty SA or Moto units are doing? Have we seen Navigator deployed to ANY Moto equipment yet?

If they get the ODN (OCAP Digital Navigator) working, it shouldn't matter what the platform is. You should be able to buy off-the-shelf DVRs that will run it, made by any CE manufacturer, including all those who do not currently sell boxes intended for cable provider leasing.

I would tend to agree Michael,

I mean let's say that TWC is using Passport software in all of it's digital boxers. For my area, Metro-Milwaukee, WI that includes Pioneer, Pace, and Scientific Atlanta. All of the TWC DVR's are all SA models, but they have a choice of non-DVR converters from the above companies.

I asked this question before, when digital cable first came out around 2001-2002 for us the boxes that they had were only one model and were the size of today's current DVR's. Who made those first cable terminals?

In any event, if all the boxes can run Passport, than when the updates and bugs are worked out, I would believe that all the boxes should run Navigator. Time Warner isn't changing the boxes. (Which could be classified as the Operating System.), just the software needed to run the boxes.

Or are Mike and I both missing something here?

Jack

Since TW gets income from leasing DVRs, if they implement OCAP well enough that their customers can use DVRs from elsewhere, they will be reducing their income. This is not rational corporate behavior, so I think we can predict that the TW DVR/IPG software will never work very well, if at all, on DVRs not supplied by TW.

Wouldn't this be contrary to FCC rules though, in spirit if not in letter?

I mean, OCAP is basically the result of FCC mandates, is it not?

I doubt that they make very much money leasing DVRs and they almost certainly will continue to charge a service fee for their Navigator software running on customer owned DVRs. The real ham-sandwich in profits to be made with leased equipment is the sale of interactive services like VOD and IPPV; with their Digital Navigator IPG running on all of their customer's OCAP/CableCARD and OCAP/DCAS equipment, they can sell IPPV and VOD--it'll be difficult to sell it on that equipment without their IPG.

Good points. Surely TW would not act against the spirit of FCC rules just to increase their profits. What was I thinking?

Well put.

Let's not forget that the cable companies had to actually PURCHASE these high tech (maybe haha) HD DVR's before they lease them to us. Some have done the calculations and estimate that at the average monthly lease fee for a standard cable HD DVR, the cable companies will about break even on their investment by the time they transition to the next generation of STB's.

Remember, if you were to buy an HD DVR privately these days, costs range from $400-$800 for equipment on par with the cable provided HD DVR's, so i really don't think they're making much, if any, profit from leasing these boxes. Leasing is currently the only way to efficiently put the correct technology in the hands of their customers to use their services.

Cable companies, by law, cannot recover more than 10.25% of STB/DVR wholesale cost.

Cable companies lose money whenever they roll a truck to investigate a customer reported problem.

If they can BLAME the CUSTOMER for these service calls, they not only save lots of money,
but can now CHARGE YOU for reporting a problem in YOUR OCAP HDTV/STB/DVR!!!
Which, of course, will now join your house wiring as the source of ALL problems.....

==========================================
BTW: As part of CEA's proposal to allow some non-OCAP hardware implementations, CEA proposed
that both cable owned STB's and CE manufacturer STBs be required to operate with the same OCAP
release to ensure that the MSOs would be subject to the same software problems & shortcomings:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/r...ent=6518539868
But on the other hand, the CE manufacturers wanted to submit only the first OCAP implementation
for certification and thereafter they would "self-certify" their equipment....GAAACCCKKK

So far, NCTA (cable guys) and MPAA (Hollywood) rejected CEA proposal with extreme prejudice:
http://www.ncta.com/DocumentBinary.aspx?id=524

NCTA also argued very strongly AGAINST the Integration Ban, cuz it increases their total cost vs SAT:
http://www.ncta.com/ContentView.aspx...contentId=3556
http://www.ncta.com/IssueBrief.aspx?contentId=3553

I'm sure that the cable companies would far prefer to make capital investments in their plant than in customer premises equipment.

BUT, having to accomodate customer owned equipment DOES limit cable's ability to roll out new services that require some special accommodation at the customer's end. Current example is SDV, but what about the future? One thing that is hiding in the background is MPEG-4 (and then more advanced compression technologies in the future). I don't believe (holl_ands, or any one, correct me if I have missed something) OCAP, or anythig similar, has addressed future compression technologies.

Mike, where does "ODN" come from? I like it, but will those outside AVS use it as well?

Indeed I think we'll continue to see the cable cos lease DVR equipment to their customers. In a LOT of ways, that is to our financial benefit. OCAP is technology that exists for a business purpose, it helps to not forget that. It also seems they may be able to keep a tighter reign on "their boxes" than third party.

While I 100% DO have an issue with this as a customer, I can 100% see their side in wanting to have complete control over the box. While I sure have a bunch of issues with what they do deliver, overall I think it mostly is successful at allowing me to record, time shift, and watch something later IN the same quality w/DD 5.1 sound as originally broadcast.

It's called that in the online press all over the place; I assume that they get it from Time Warner. Google "Time-Warner ODN". It's used in a Samsung PR here.

Yes, OCAP and associated Next Gen Cable Architecture efforts permit advancements in
audio/video codecs, e.g. H.264 (MPEG4 AVC) and VC1 (WMVHD).
But it's mostly a hardware issue to include H.264/VC1 Decoder chips in new equipment.

BTW: Resolution of on-going Qualcomm/Broadcom H.264 (MPEG4 AVC) Patent Warz
should settle who gets paid for what....so HDTV/STB/DVR and Cell Phone manufacturers
can finally enter into low risk, enforceable royalty agreements:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/b...3qualcomm.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont..._1b24jury.html

============================================
I expect to see H.264/VC-1 first in IPTV functionality incorporated into new cable STB's,
allowing cable customers to download any of many tens of thousands of OnDemand
and PPV offerings from a wide variety of providers connected via Internet vice just the
cable company's "walled garden".....
Which also means each cable company doesn't have to have massive server farms.
[Current VOD upgrades put video stream server(s) at each neighborhood node!!!]

And by moving programs to either IPTV or cable's VOD (using SDV) means more room for
dozens (100's?) of HD (or at least widescreen SD) broadcast channels coming in the future.
Many all-movie channels could go to HD via VOD or IPTV if the monthly subscription
cost doesn't increase.....
Since HD requires about four times as much capacity, how else can they upgrade all of
those all-movie and Premium channels to HD????

========================================
Jumping to new codecs for current channels would be very difficult (just ask DirecTV!!!),
since ALL existing STB's, DVR's, CableCARD HDTVs, TiVo Series 3's, et. al. become obsolete.

Maybe in the not too distant future, we'll see selected Premium channels in H.264,
which would require a suitably equipped STB/DVR/HDTV.

But when the program providers finish their on-going Direct-to-MPEG4 re-digitization
efforts and the SAT companies eliminate the current MPEG2-MPEG4 transcoding,
the cable companies may need to reconsider keeping MPEG2 with much higher data rates
(at very high data rates MPEG2 arguably works as good as low rate MPEG4) or they
get tired of SAT commercials claiming MPEG4 algorithm has inherently "better" PQ
and are forced to use H.264/MPEG4 for nearly all channels. ["I'm clueless, but I want it."]

PS: Verizon FiOS and AT&T Uverse have already started Direct-to-MPEG4 (DtM4?)
transmissions for some programs.

The primary purpose of letting cutomers have a DVR is to sell them more cable services, DVR customers subscribe to more of the premium channels

I laugh every time I see a message about cable companies not being able to recover the cost of the STB with their monthly rental fees.

I have had TW cable for over thirty years. During that time, I have switched to a new box once, when I purchased an HDTV.

I guarantee TW recovered the original cost of those STB's long ago and has been earning a profit on every monthly rental fee paid by me for a long time.

I am following up on my previous post. I was trying to connect a WD Premium My Book ES 500GB usb/esata hard drive to my 8300HD. I live in Lincoln, NE and we are a testbed for the new navagator software. I was unable to get it working. I sent a email to time warner and the representative called me back the next day or so. Long story short he said that currently esata is not supported. Right away he mentioned you cant disconnect the drive and copy stuff to your computer. I told him all I was looking to do was to add extra storage. He said until they fix all the more pressing issues. Aka slow menus, lockups, and all the missing features they will not look at supporting esata. He did not rule it out in the future. Oh Well

That is a standard answer that all cable companies give all over the country. I believe that there have been reports of successful use of an external drive over in the External drive thread (and I see that you have posted this same text there). But it is important to select the right drive and enclosure and also to go through the correct set-up procedure.

No BS here - that is quite true!

I would like to go back to some of the basic questions. This is because I think that TWC Navigator is going to be rolling out sooner than later in a lot of markets: I will try to read the minds of customers who may not be techno-geeks. But I have to say that we have some great tech guys on the board who are really doing a great job of answering questions! Thank you!

Some questions:

1.) What can customers expect when TWC Navigator is actually being downloaded to their boxes?

2.) How long on average will the download take?

Jack