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KEF Owners Thread - Page 96

post #2851 of 6020
Well, I wasn't trying to cause any controversy, but it seems I did.

I've been looking at all sorts of cables and wires, and I like the prices at monoprice, as I'm sure a lot of people here do. That being said, the AudioQuest cables do look great.. and if I had the money (or wanted to spend it on cables), i would likely get something like those. I'm still considering them, but at the moment, I think I'm going to be getting wire from monoprice and terminating them myself with banana plugs. Does audio quest ever even go on sale?

Trying to figure out also how much further back I'll need to place my TV in order to get my center channel to fit on my stand. I might think of getting an additional AV rack to move some stuff over....

Can't wait for my speakers to get here!!! Does KEF make stands for the IQ30s? I'm thinking of getting those for surrounds, but I didn't see any stands. If they don't, I might have to settle and get a couple more IQ50s... or save some more money and get IQ70s or 90s and move the IQ50s to the surrounds at some point..
post #2852 of 6020
Joe -

Check out Audiogon.com for a set of used cables. You can search the listings here:

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl

for cables in your price range.
post #2853 of 6020
post #2854 of 6020
Thanks hifisponge.

May I ask more specifically if anyone has the KEF Iq8Ds bipole surrounds?? I can't find any info at the KEF website about it. I never hear the KEF speakers mentioned on the AVS surround forums and hope that someone here knows about them...or has them. Thanks!
post #2855 of 6020
I'm noticing that the IQ50s can handle 15-130W. Does this mean that I should limit my receiver to 130W? The center channel (IQ60c) can handle 150W.
post #2856 of 6020
Quote:
Originally Posted by 666monkeyboy View Post

Thanks Jeff.

I probably do a lot more music listening than HT use, however I'm looking for a sub that can do both well.

So would you say the Fathoms and Velodyne would be a good match for the Kefs, and that both subs work well with music aswell as HT? Is that the same for the Artison?

Is it worth adding SVS subs to the mix? They seem to get positive praise and that they're good value for money. Are they a good match for Kefs and more importantly do music well?

Like hifisponge states in the post after this one JL are really the Kings of the subwoofer realm right now and there prices reflect that. Velodyne and Artison are both good lower price options and yes, both will compliment the KEFs well, and are good for both HT and music.
post #2857 of 6020
Quote:
Originally Posted by joen05 View Post

I'm noticing that the IQ50s can handle 15-130W. Does this mean that I should limit my receiver to 130W? The center channel (IQ60c) can handle 150W.

I don't want to say that the power handling specs that speaker manufacturers give are meaningless but you really can't over power a quality set of home speakers like the KEF's as long as you are using good quality amplification. More amplification is always better for the speaker and your listening enjoyment. Contrary to some belief out there, amplifier power is not a function of how loud you play your system. Greater wattage and amperage will make your speakers perform better at ANY volume level.

The more power an receiver/amplifier has at its disposal the greater its ability to start and stop the motion in your speakers drivers. The subtleties in whatever you are listening too become more pronounced, sounds that may have been somewhat muddled together will be clearer and you won't have to crank the volume as high to hear everything the way it should be heard.

I have 250wpc running to speakers that are supposedly "rated" to 115w and they have never sounded better. Quality of amp does matter here so don't run out and hook up your 600w Class D car amp to your home speakers because the results won't be good. Definitly don't worry about limiting the amount of power you send to your KEF's though.
post #2858 of 6020
Thanks Jeff! Now I can keep looking at more high powered receivers =)
post #2859 of 6020
It might not be a bad idea to get a receiver that's not very powerful, but then to get a separate amp which will be better in the long run.
post #2860 of 6020
Any recommendations on amps in that case? I'll take a look into that too. I was actually looking at the 4310ci, which does allow pre-amping. Is that what you were referring to?
post #2861 of 6020
Quote:
Originally Posted by joen05 View Post

Any recommendations on amps in that case? I'll take a look into that too. I was actually looking at the 4310ci, which does allow pre-amping. Is that what you were referring to?

The 4310 will give you plenty of power. Don't worry about an separate amp right now. IMO, there is far too much importance placed on using an outboard amp. If you find that you are hearing distortion when listening at high levels with the 4310, then consider a seperate amp. But keep in mind that even then, a separate amp may not help if it is the speakers that are being overdriven. Before you consider an amp, I would take that same amount of money an put it into room treatments, even if it is just treating the first reflection point for the main speakers.
post #2862 of 6020
Quote:
Originally Posted by joen05 View Post

Any recommendations on amps in that case? I'll take a look into that too. I was actually looking at the 4310ci, which does allow pre-amping. Is that what you were referring to?

Yeah, I was talking about using the receiver as a pre-amp, and adding an external amp. I personally use an onkyo 806 receiver with an emotiva xpa-3 amp. This is a 3 channel amp, which I use for the front 3 speakers, and I let the receiver power the rears.

http://emotiva.com/xpa3.shtm

However, there are many good amps from companies like NADS, Rotel, Parasound, etc.
post #2863 of 6020
Quote:
Originally Posted by joen05 View Post

Well, I wasn't trying to cause any controversy, but it seems I did.

I've been looking at all sorts of cables and wires, and I like the prices at monoprice, as I'm sure a lot of people here do. That being said, the AudioQuest cables do look great.. and if I had the money (or wanted to spend it on cables), i would likely get something like those. I'm still considering them, but at the moment, I think I'm going to be getting wire from monoprice and terminating them myself with banana plugs. Does audio quest ever even go on sale?

Trying to figure out also how much further back I'll need to place my TV in order to get my center channel to fit on my stand. I might think of getting an additional AV rack to move some stuff over....

Can't wait for my speakers to get here!!! Does KEF make stands for the IQ30s? I'm thinking of getting those for surrounds, but I didn't see any stands. If they don't, I might have to settle and get a couple more IQ50s... or save some more money and get IQ70s or 90s and move the IQ50s to the surrounds at some point..

Cables are always a controversial topic. Back in the days when we had Laserdisc and most cables where in the analog domain, there wasn't nearly as much controversy as we have now. The only question back then was "how much do you want to spend on cables to improve your sound?". That's where the 10% rule of thumb is coming from; not from sales people. Now with everything digital the discussion shift to 'how can you hear a difference with digital (0-1)?'. However, people entering this discussions shouldn't blindly based their facts on the 'monoprice love', but actually let their ears decide.

I respect subiefast's opinion and he seems to have done some decent 1:1 tests and although I'm not a professional reviewer, my replies are based on personal experience. Out of all the cables upgrades, I am sure that I'm suffering with 'placebo effect' on some of those upgrades. However, upgrading my speakers cables clearly improved the overall sound, most noticeable in a deeper and tighter bass.

Now keep in mind that my main speakers had a MSRP of about $4,000, so me spending $500 on cable fits within the '10%' rule and improved the sound. Also keep in mind that if you have $4,000 speakers, a $3,000 amplifier (in my case, the Parasound A51); do you think a $10 speaker cable "might" be the weakest link?

Let's not hijack this thread with a cable discussion, but I can truly recommend to consider some decent cables within the '10% rule' to make sure you don't overspend on cables.

Let me wrap this up with another excellent article that I will post below.
post #2864 of 6020
Giz Explains: Why Analog Audio Cables Really Aren't All The Same

While I've clearly stated that, despite Best Buy's 57 overpriced "choices," HDMI cables pretty much all do the same thing, this isn't the case with analog audio cables. Here's the physical explanation why:

While there aren't a lot of parts to audio cables, there are more than you might think, especially on higher-end cables. Their goal, like most wiring, is to transmit an electrical signal from point A to point B without losing signal strength or clarity. But because this is the real world and not fantasy land, there will always be some kind of loss, and when the signal is analograther than digitalthere's less of an all-or-nothing tradeoff. With the HDMI cables we tested, most could pass the required 1080p video and audio signal with no noticeable blips, but with analog, there are infinite gradations of signal that could actually make it through.

What gets in the way of the signal? A cable has several key electrical properties that differ from manufacturer to manufacturer, and can be manipulated by the way a cable is constructed. Because that manipulation usually involves performance tradeoffs, cable makers themselves have to ask two questions:

1. How much can I minimize the signal loss overall?
2. If I have to compromise, what do I sacrifice and what to I preserve?

I asked my friend David Kay, an editor at Audio Junkies, to help me sort out this mess, and we recently walked through all the electrical properties that have an impact on an audio signal as it passes along a cable. Here's the gist of our discussion:

Resistance: How much opposition the cable's own length, shape and material impose on the signal passing through. Since the opposite of resistivity is conductivity, a better conductor material used to make a wire inherently means lower resistance. "Exceptionally pure and exceptionally drawn copper or silver is much more conductive than the cheap stuff," says Kay. "Some companies use rare earth materials, like palladium, which is supposedly more conductive than silver." The word impedanceoften used in audio terminologyis essentially a derivative of electrical resistance.

Measured in ohms, or rather milliohms, resistance is usually referred to by the letter R. The fewer milliohms of resistance, the better time you're gonna have.

When wire makers are casting or drawing their metals into long strands, they take care to keep oxygen out of the process, and the more expensive cables take care to keep the metal hot while working with it, to avoid the build up of crystals. It is believed that oxygen and crystal buildup in the metals affect sound quality, because they add to the resistance. One of the most celebrated casting methods for super-pure, high-conductivity copper is called the Ohno Continuous Casting process, or OCC.

Capacitance: "The ability of a body to hold an electrical charge," as Wikipedia puts it so concisely. A capacitor is basically two conductors separated by an insulator. If that sounds suspiciously like every speaker wire you've ever seen, then you're on to something. Modern capacitors found in consumer electronics are purpose built to hold charges, like smart, fast mini batteries, but even primitive cables can hold some kind of electrical impulse. If that happens, it's not going to get where it's going on time. And time, as it happens, is important when listening to music.

Capacitance, indicated by a C, is measured in Farads. In the audio world, usually that's picoFarads (pF), the fewer the better.

Inductance: Sparing you the nasty official descriptions, in this case, it's the potential for a conductor (wire) to generate an electromagnetic field based on the electricity flowing through it. Too much of an electromagnetic field can technically screw with the audio signal. (Britannica.com actually has some decent chatter on inductance, if you dare.)

The Romulus to capacitance's Remus, these two are always at odds. Even if you can bring 'em both down, cable makers always reach a point where they have to make a tradeoff between capacitance and inductance. Says Kay, "The way you arrange wires in your cable, by twisting them, and by deciding how far to space the conductors apartthat all has an enormous effect. You want a balanceyou don't want ultrahigh readings of one to get low readings of the other."

Inductance is denoted with an Lapparently as a shoutout to some long-dead physicist. You track induction in Henry units (not making this up), also a shoutout to some dead dude, and yeah, they measure inductance in audio cables with microHenrys (µH or uH).

The Dielectric, aka Insulation: One of the biggest disputes in high-end cable is how to insulate your conductors. Lay people tend to think that the plastic coating around a wire is there to keep the electricity from getting out, or other electricity from getting in, and while that's mostly true, the physics argument says that the signal itself travels between the conductor and the insulator, almost always referred to in cable science as the dielectric. The wave is technically jumping along the wire, bouncing off of each insulated wall as it goes. Because of this, some warrant that an insulator shouldn't be too absorptive. Cable makers tend to frown upon PVC, and smile at Teflon. In the middle, says Kay, are things like polyethylene foam. Teflon is expensive and harder to extrude over copper or silver wire, hence its price.

There's more to insulation than a mere coating. In fact, some cable makers coat each individual strand of copper in what's called a Litz coating, in order to ensure the longevity of the cables, according to one of the makers. The strands themselves aren't microscopicthey're usually thick by typical standardsbut inside each "wire" you find a bundle of smaller individually wrapped wires. You can imagine this is a bit of a pain to work with if you're stripping wire yourself, but some people do like it.

Skin depth: As Stereophile's John Atkinson put it back in 1995: "There is an optimum conductor diameter for audio-signal transmission." This has to do with research conducted by a University of Oxford professor named Malcolm Omar Hawksford (bonus points for cool multicultural name), who said that lower frequency signals take longer to travel through thicker wire, creating an effect known as "time smearing." The solution was to bring the diameter down to somewhere between 0.5mm and 1mm per strandthat is, 24 to 18 AWGin order to ensure that "a uniform current flow across the conductor is to be maintained over the audioband."

In order for cable makers to avoid problems resulting from skin depth, some have resorted to making hollowed-out or irregularly shaped cableslike the hollow oval cable at left from Analysis Plusor arranging skinny cables around a hollow center.

Prof. Hawksford also corroborated a few other points that had been made (and that I mentioned above):
"The dielectric supports the majority of the signal during its transportation along the cable"
"Stranded conductors without individual [Litz] strand insulation appear to be a poor construction"

Network Boxes: Some speaker cables from certain manufacturers have "network" boxes on them, electronic boxes that are used to ensure electromagnetic noise from the system itself doesn't get through, effectively filtering low frequencies that wouldn't be in the music. Higher-end cables let you select the impedance, that is, tune the cable to show preference for low, mid or high frequencies. (At left, MIT Shotgun speaker wire with network box.)

Shielding: You may note that I haven't yet bring up shielding, even though it's a popular topic in audio cables. It's because you generally only shield interconnects, which are constantly carrying low-energy signals between heavy electrical components. Those weak signals are easy prey to external electromagnetic interference, while the higher-voltage stuff running through speaker cables tends to be impervious to that outside noise.

Shielding comes in different formats, usually all at the same time, in order to cover different electromagnetic frequency ranges, from the low end, protected by a braided mesh of aluminum, copper or even silver-plated copper, to the high end, kept out by solid sheets of aluminum or mylar. An additional layer of carbon-filled (conductive) PVC is also used to block certain electromagnetic frequencies and to cut down on the tendency of some interconnects to be "microphonic," picking up vibrations that turn to sound. (At left, Cardas' interconnect with three layers of shielding, Litz-coated individual strands of cable, and even a hollow centerlots of principles at work here.)

Kay says that, because of this vibration issue, there are even more unusual shields coming to market, including wires surrounded by beads and sometimes even fluids.

WHOA WHOA WHOA, BUT CAN YOU HEAR ALL THAT CRAP!?!??!!!!
The question is, how does this actually lead to differences in sound quality? Can people actually hear differences in cables when they are optimized in accordance with the physical properties I talked about up above?

When proving his theory of skin depth, Professor Hawksford wrote, "I am not trying to say that this effect is necessarily significant, only that an error component is predicted by our theory and is shown by the measurements to exist." I think that sums up where the real division lies in the audio cable debate. Some people say they can hear it, others refuse to buy that these proven tweaks of electricity and electromagnetism are audible.

You're not going to hear it on a $350 home-theater-in-a-box system that came with speakers thrown in. But if you spend a few grand per speaker, and a fair amount on a receiver, you just might stand a chance of hearing some differences. If you spend $100,000 on a home-theater setup, well, you've probably got the cash to buy any audio cables you want, so I'm not sure I give a damn what you buy.

And as I mentioned up top, we're talking about analog cable here. It's true that anything passing electrical signalsbe they analog or digitalwill encounter these same issues, but as we've seen, the heavy demands of 1080p video mean you either see the picture or you see something revoltingthere's less of an opportunity for nuance, which makes cheaper digital cablesespecially ones with a guaranteea more sensible purchase.

This isn't necessarily a validation of extravagant spending when it comes to speaker cables and interconnects, but it does acknowledge that even skeptics can hear the difference between a $200 speaker cable and a $1000 speaker cable, given the right (generally very expensive) sound system.In fact, many say that higher-end systems reveal the qualitative difference between cheap and high-end cables better than they reveal any variation among various expensive ones. That is, the jump from $20 to $1000 is much more clearly audible than the jump from, say, $2500 to $5000.


I get this, because when tasting wine, my ignorant ass can correctly identify the differences between a $9 white Burgundy and a $25 one, but I may have a lot of trouble sussing out what makes a $100 white Burgundy any better than that same $25 bottle. If you put a $100 bottle and a $1000 bottle in front of me and ask me to tell the difference, I'd probably just walk away. (Actually, I'd grab them and run, but only to sell 'em on eBay.)

I'm not going to leave you with some direct answer. In fact, we've reached a nice pausing point where you can yell at each other (or me) about all the reasons you think all this stuff is real or total nonsense. The good news is, we're cooking up a version of the age-old analog cable test, to see what we can learn for ourselves, both with analytical gear and our very own ears. Meantime, please discuss this in comments, and if you have any suggestions for your own tests, I'd love to hear them below or via email.

Also, there's a damn good chance you know more about electrical engineering than I do, and that you'd like to elaborate on or maybe even correct something I discussed above. Just don't be a dick about itit's tricky to put this stuff into terms every interested party can understand, and in doing so, stuff gets left out. By all means share your knowledge, but know that this is just the beginningnot the final word.
post #2865 of 6020
If you're going to go through all that trouble, then why not upgrade power cables, and power conditioners, how about upgrading the cheap in wall wiring? Where should one draw the line? Whether it be speaker wires, power cords, el cheapo home depot outlets, and solid core wires, they're all just power cords in a sense,and all do the same job which is, carry electricity.

Personally for me.... I'd take the $500 or $1,000 that you spend on wires, and spend that on getting speakers that are $1,000 better than what you have.

I still think we need some hard scientific data, when it comes to these things. Without that, our opinions are meaningless.

This seems to be the popular avs article when choosing wires...

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
post #2866 of 6020
Quote:
Originally Posted by subiefast View Post

If you're going to go through all that trouble, then why not upgrade power cables, and power conditioners, how about upgrading the cheap in wall wiring? Where should one draw the line?

More to the point, if the system is only as great as the weakest link, what are we supposed to do about all of the wire used inside the speaker, the lead used in the solder to connect that wire to the drivers, the tin and nickel in the binding posts on both the speaker and the amp, the cheap hook-up wire used inside the amp and prepro, and the less than pure and unshieled copper traces on the circuit boards? If standard grade wire can be used inside the speaker and the components, as long as the speaker wire you chose is of adequate gauge for the length of the run, and the ICs have decent sheilding from outside interference, reasonablely priced connection cables can be used too. Large gauge speaker wire is cheap, as are sheilded ICs.
post #2867 of 6020
Thanks for all the great information guys! Now let's get back to the KEF talk.. =)

I'll PM for more specific information if and when I have questions, so we can keep this on topic.

More on topic, does anyone have pictures of their KEF setups? I'm interested in seeing what some people have done with their IQ series. Of course, I'm drooling over the Reference setup that's floating out there also....
post #2868 of 6020
Here's my unfinished project. I just moved in a few weeks ago. I have two other Home Theater setups I'm building at the same time as this one, so it's taking me longer than I wanted. I have some weird flash artifacts in the photos as well.









post #2869 of 6020
That looks great! Where did you get that component rack you have?
post #2870 of 6020
Thanks... I think I bought the audio rack at target. At least, I'm pretty sure I did.
post #2871 of 6020
Quote:
Originally Posted by 666monkeyboy View Post

Thanks Jeff.

I probably do a lot more music listening than HT use, however I'm looking for a sub that can do both well.

So would you say the Fathoms and Velodyne would be a good match for the Kefs, and that both subs work well with music aswell as HT? Is that the same for the Artison?

Is it worth adding SVS subs to the mix? They seem to get positive praise and that they're good value for money. Are they a good match for Kefs and more importantly do music well?

Because of room size, speaker layout, equipment cabinet, etc. - I ended up purchasing the smaller JL Audio Sub F110. My plan is to add a second F110 in the future. I have to say that this sub is simply amazing. It blends perfectly with my KEF 205/2s. I've owned Velodyne, Sunfire (which the F110 is replacing in our dedicated HT) and even have a new Rythmik in our family room. Nothing compares to the F110. The JL Audio sub handles music and has the power for HT. I'm sure the larger ones are even MORE impressive, but the integration of the F110 with my KEFs is fantastic. They are seemless for music (especially 2 channel). For HT, they seem to have all the power I need and coupled with the Buttkickers in my Berklines really rock the room. Highly recomended. SJ
post #2872 of 6020
I've heard good things about SVS subs too, and wondering if there are any other subs that I should be considering.. Fathoms are a little out of my range right now....
post #2873 of 6020
I should add that I'll be mainly using my HTS for gaming and movies, music only occasionally.
post #2874 of 6020
Quote:
Originally Posted by joen05 View Post

I've heard good things about SVS subs too, and wondering if there are any other subs that I should be considering.. Fathoms are a little out of my range right now....

What is your price range and what is the size of the room?
post #2875 of 6020
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

What is your price range and what is the size of the room?

The size of the room is 16 * 19, but its a 3/4 room, with the ceiling sloping towards the rear of the room, opposite the TV. The TV is on the 16 ft wall, on a stand.

I would say between 300-600?
post #2876 of 6020
I'm using an SVS PB-12 NSD sub. It's about $600. Very good sub for the money.
post #2877 of 6020
Quote:
Originally Posted by subiefast View Post

I'm using an SVS PB-12 NSD sub. It's about $600. Very good sub for the money.

Yes, that would be a good choice for the budget. I wouldn't go for a $300 sub though. There is a line, and you really start getting good quality at around $600 on up.
post #2878 of 6020
Quote:
Originally Posted by subiefast View Post

Here's my unfinished project. ... ...



...

*slow clap*
post #2879 of 6020
Here are some pictures of my setup...

Parasound A51/A23 amps, Lexicon MC-8/Marantz AV8003 pre-amps, Toshiba HD-XA2 SD/HD DVD, Panasonic BD35 BR, Monster HTS3500 Power, SA8300HD DVR and a Sirius Stiletto 2 Radio sitting in a VTI BLG-404 rack. Kef Reference 3 Main Speaker.


Kef Reference 2 Side Speaker


Kef PSW4000 Subwoofer


Carada screen, Kef Reference 3 Main Speakers. Kef Model 200C Center Speaker


Epson 1080UB Projector. KEF Q15 Rear Speakers mounted on the wall
post #2880 of 6020
Very nice Exm.... How do you like your Sub?
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