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Canon HV10 camcorder is the real deal!

post #1 of 229
Thread Starter 
For those of you looking for a really small HD camcorder, I urge you to look at the Canon HV10 if you were thinking only Sony.

The HV10 is the REAL DEAL! My buddy and I put it through its paces with the HC1. I was first shocked at the quality of m2t HV10 clips I downloaded from a site in Japan. These clips were shot using a Canon HV10. I put them in my Edius Pro editing program and then output them back to tape. From there I played it on my Sony HDV camcorder output to my 50" Fujitsu plasma. The end result was as if the guy in Japan had loaned me his HV10 tape. The colors were just gorgeous (better than the HC1 IMO), the picture was cleaner and sharper and we both agreed, it could even give the FX1 a run for its money.

The H10 produces a cleaner more polished picture than the HC1/HC3. My buddy felt it look exactly like a professional cam's picture: Smooth, detailed, polished with no discernable noise in any kind of decent lighting and just utterly transparent. I really believe the full-rez, 1920X1080 chip, are part of the solution! Additionally the chip is larger than either of the Sony cams. In fact, this is the first application of a full-rez chip in a consumer camcorder.

When we put the HC1 clips on back to back, you could definitely see a more 3D effect. It was just like looking through a window! I know I've felt that with both the HC1 and HC3 at times, but when you see the difference, it's like the next level up in picture quality. The picture is just so amazingly clean and quiet! It very much reminds me of the difference between the better Canon digital cameras and the Sonys. The Canons I've found produce a more polished picture with better exposure, less noise and better colors. It's the same difference between the Canon H10 and the HC1/HC3. It's almost impossible to believe this tiny thing is putting out this kind of video!

Low light has very little grain in the tests I've done thus far (it's raining in N.Y. today, so I got to shoot a bit in somewhat dark rooms). I can definitely see the HC1 has more low-light noise than the H10. Keep in mind I haven't begun to explore the manual controls yet. I haven't really done much in the way of A/Bs on the audio front, but initial audio sounds decent, but probably more typical of the Sony cams. Didn't hear much of a differernce between the HC1 and the HV10.

To me the only downside is the ergonomics. I'm not a big fan of upright designs by any company, but with a picture like this I'll learn to love it.

So this is a keeper. I can't tell you how impressed I am with this cam. I honestly think it gives the FX1 a run for its money (my buddy who had that cam too, agrees). He was amazed at the consistency from shot to shot, lighting change to lighting change. The autofocu BLOWS AWAY the Sony cams. It just doesn't miss, even in low-light! Canon has a winner on their hands....its been a long time since I've owned a Canon video camera (the last one was a Hi8 model).
post #2 of 229
Good info Ken. I've been looking for a review of this camcorder. It doesn't help that I just bought a HC3 a few months ago. I really like the HC3, but it is never ending in this picture quality obsession we have here on AVS Guess I'll have to try one out, once I save up the dough.
post #3 of 229
Man....I own numerous DV camcorders....and have been waiting to hear about the Canon.

My wife ain't gonna like this at all.....
post #4 of 229
Thread Starter 
My wife actually likes this unit....she calls it 'cutie'. She knows I'll be Ebaying the HC1, so it won't be a big dollar investment in the end.
post #5 of 229
I believe the same clips you got are from this website . I downloaded the light rail/train clips and they look amazingly good.

BTW, the MyHD PCI tuner card and HD MediaBox are hardware devices that can play these files (with a simple renaming from .m2t to .ts or .tp) to HDTV displays without needing to play them through an HDV camcorder or outputting them from a graphics card (which isn't as accurate as playing through dedicated MPEG-2 devices). I use both devices to play back HD recorded files and HDV videos captured from tape (like the HV10 video files).
post #6 of 229
Ken, (or should I say Kenny7 ),

I happened into Best Buy on Saturday to ask when they might get the HV10 in and to my surprise it was already there! I looked at it for a bit and headed on home. Of course I couldn't resist so I grabbed my HC3 and a blank tape and headed right back.

I asked if I could tape a little demo footage to compare with the HC3 and they were nice enough to unbolt the HV from it's anti-theft cable/bracket so I could load my tape. I shot a couple minutes of various areas of the store I could see from the counter and then shot the same views right after with the HC3. Went home and watched the clips on my Sony HD CRT via component and came to basically the same conclusion as you.

I replayed the clip over and over looking at different things. The biggest diff IMO is the cleanness of the HV10 images. The HC3 is pretty noisy particularly when zoomed in. It gives a lot of "twitter" on edges which almost appear to be flashing at times. The HV10 still produces a bit of the same but MUCH less. It's images are really pretty solid, and definitely a bit sharper. Still not HDNet sharp, but a definite step in the right direction. I thought the colors were also more natural and true to life as well. Also, the optical image stabilization is outstanding.

Thought I'd check AVS this morning to see if anybody had checked one out yet and found your thread. I'm now planning on selling my HC3 and will pick up the HV10 too. For me the smaller the better because I use my cam for shooting backpacking video. My previous cam before the HC3 was an Canon Optura 300 which is the same upright form factor and essentially the same size and weight as the HV10. Now I can have compact size/weight AND great PQ. I think the HC3 is a nice little cam that has great ergonomics/handling, but from the beginning I felt it was a bit too soft and artifacty.


ron
post #7 of 229
The footage I downloaded looked good but not that much better than my HC1. I'm waiting to check out the Panasonic 3-CCD camera due this fall. I'm way overdue for a 3-CCD camera having owned a number of single CCD cameras.

How is the microphone working out on the HV10? That was a big concern as there is no hotshoe or mic jack for an external microphone.
post #8 of 229
Can HV10 material be firewired to a JVC DVHS unit?

If the answer is yes....I'm a goner!
post #9 of 229
No, none of HDV can be 'officially' dubbed to DVHS, unless you use a mits deck. Or something non-JVC but thats the only thing I tested with.
post #10 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by timecop View Post

No, none of HDV can be 'officially' dubbed to DVHS, unless you use a mits deck. Or something non-JVC but thats the only thing I tested with.

So it could be dubbed to DVHS with a Mits....does the Mits recorded tape playback in a JVC unit?
post #11 of 229
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyW79SFV View Post

I believe the same clips you got are from this website . I downloaded the light rail/train clips and they look amazingly good.

Tony, yes, those are indeed the clips.
post #12 of 229
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R11 View Post

Ken, (or should I say Kenny7 ),

I happened into Best Buy on Saturday to ask when they might get the HV10 in and to my surprise it was already there! I looked at it for a bit and headed on home. Of course I couldn't resist so I grabbed my HC3 and a blank tape and headed right back.

I asked if I could tape a little demo footage to compare with the HC3 and they were nice enough to unbolt the HV from it's anti-theft cable/bracket so I could load my tape. I shot a couple minutes of various areas of the store I could see from the counter and then shot the same views right after with the HC3. Went home and watched the clips on my Sony HD CRT via component and came to basically the same conclusion as you.

I replayed the clip over and over looking at different things. The biggest diff IMO is the cleanness of the HV10 images. The HC3 is pretty noisy particularly when zoomed in. It gives a lot of "twitter" on edges which almost appear to be flashing at times. The HV10 still produces a bit of the same but MUCH less. It's images are really pretty solid, and definitely a bit sharper. Still not HDNet sharp, but a definite step in the right direction. I thought the colors were also more natural and true to life as well. Also, the optical image stabilization is outstanding.

Thought I'd check AVS this morning to see if anybody had checked one out yet and found your thread. I'm now planning on selling my HC3 and will pick up the HV10 too. For me the smaller the better because I use my cam for shooting backpacking video. My previous cam before the HC3 was an Canon Optura 300 which is the same upright form factor and essentially the same size and weight as the HV10. Now I can have compact size/weight AND great PQ. I think the HC3 is a nice little cam that has great ergonomics/handling, but from the beginning I felt it was a bit too soft and artifacty.


ron

Ron, yes, those were exactly my observations. The cleanliness of the picture is really very professional and something you don't see in consumer cams, HDV or not.

I took a clip down my block with plenty of trees and leaves. With the Sony quite a bit of the detail in the leaves were obscured due to the in-camera sharpening and the resulting 'twitter' as you described it. You are dead-on in saying that the Canon isn't devoid of this twitter, but there is much much less. With the Canon, the detail on those leaves was clearly visible.

A review on Camcorder Info indicated that the HV10's picture was essentially identical to the professional Canon HDV cameras that were just released. The major difference was that the pro cameras were much better in low-light. That same review knocked the HV10 for low-light, but I truly didn't see it as being any worse than the Sony (they did). In fact, in videos I took in my house at night (lighting on), I found the colors far superior to the Sony AND the autofocus was 100%. I couldn't say that for the Sony.
post #13 of 229
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

The footage I downloaded looked good but not that much better than my HC1. I'm waiting to check out the Panasonic 3-CCD camera due this fall. I'm way overdue for a 3-CCD camera having owned a number of single CCD cameras.

How is the microphone working out on the HV10? That was a big concern as there is no hotshoe or mic jack for an external microphone.

Brian, I'd say the audio was on par with the Sonys. Not as good as 3-chip units that have the mike outboard of the camera itself, but certainly passable. I really believe for the intended purpose of most people, the lack of mike inputs, XLR and hot shoe is not a deal break. For me this is a great knockaround HD cam that happens to produce superb images.
post #14 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Star56 View Post

So it could be dubbed to DVHS with a Mits....does the Mits recorded tape playback in a JVC unit?

From what others have said in other threads, yes.
post #15 of 229
HDV is authored for the HD-DVD format easily enough on single or dual layer disks, but I digress.

For the price I'm tempted but I'm wary of the hype that says it's as good as the Canon pro HDV, currently the XL-H1.

Canon's reputation with CMOS sensors in the DSLR world is stellar, yet the bayer filter in front of a camcorder sensor could be root cause for twitter. notably absent on a 3 chipper pro. And I'm wondering just what the true output resolution is considering the best pro grade HDV cams are only 1440 x 1080 sensors x3. The observation that it's giving the Sony FX1 a run for it's money doesn't quite add up either, since it's derided unfairly perhaps, but derided still for it's 960 x 1080 x3 CCDs. I would hope the HV10 could have better potential for detail than that. The Sony FX1/Z1U are noted for best in class focusing, perhaps the comment to the contrary is reflecting the HC1/HC3 family.
post #16 of 229
Thread Starter 
Tom, I had an FX1 for a brief time before selling it. Trust me when I tell you the autofocus on the HV10 not only bests the FX1, but bests any camcorder I've ever owned in any format. Canon's 'instant' autofocus really really works. Go to the store and try one and see if it's marketing hype or for real....I think you'll find it's for real.

The true 1920X1080 sensor in the HV10 appears to account for a much higher final measured resolution than the Sony camcorders. Canon is really on to something and it makes me want to see the Canon HDV pro cams. To me the real asset of the Canon picture is its stellar signal to noise ratio....there is just so little noise in the picture, especially when compared to anything close to its price range.
post #17 of 229
Only if it had HDMI, then I'd consider getting that to use with realtime recording with that new intensity HDMI capture board... Maybe next version!
post #18 of 229
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by timecop View Post

Only if it had HDMI, then I'd consider getting that to use with realtime recording with that new intensity HDMI capture board... Maybe next version!

I'd love for this unit to have had HDMI, but considering the picture is so fantastic via component, it's not that big a deal. Besides, I will probably wind up with a larger HDV camcorder and be able to use that unit as an HDMI playback deck for any recordings made with the HV10. Whatever recordings you make today with an HV10 can be played tomorrow or next week on a deck with HDMI output. Certainly not the cheapest alternative, but it not only gives you HDMI output, but it also takes the wear off of a tiny camcorder.
post #19 of 229
Yea, thing is though, if it had HDMI, it would output raw uncompressed video from the great 1920x1080 sensor, to be processed with the HDMI capture board, as opposed to editing 25mbps HDV which has been scaled down to 1440x1080. Thats all, I'm not knocking it, but there's no affordable analog component capture kit which does 1920x1080.
post #20 of 229
According to camcorderinfo.com, the measured resolution is about 636x691 lines, really good and about on par with the FX1, better than HC1/HC3 but pretty far behind the XL-H1 at 800 x 800 lines with a lower native resolution, but 3 panels...

I want to see the new Canon HDV pro cams as well.
post #21 of 229
Thread Starter 
Timecop, I'm not sure if you used HDMI, that you'd still get full 1920X1080 resolution. It may well be that even at an HDMI output, the signal might still be processed and show the HDV resolution of 1440X1080....but who knows?
post #22 of 229
its a little baffling to me given all the advantages of HV10 why camcorderinfo.com gave a slight edge to HC3 in recommending one of the two. To me the biggest concerns with HV10 are low light and still performance because lot of us do use it indoors half of the time and take still photos with it too.
post #23 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

A review on Camcorder Info indicated that the HV10's picture was essentially identical to the professional Canon HDV cameras that were just released. The major difference was that the pro cameras were much better in low-light. That same review knocked the HV10 for low-light, but I truly didn't see it as being any worse than the Sony (they did). In fact, in videos I took in my house at night (lighting on), I found the colors far superior to the Sony AND the autofocus was 100%. I couldn't say that for the Sony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GodobeHD View Post

its a little baffling to me given all the advantages of HV10 why camcorderinfo.com gave a slight edge to HC3 in recommending one of the two. To me the biggest concerns with HV10 are low light and still performance because lot of us do use it indoors half of the time and take still photos with it too.

I have found the CCI reviews of both the HC3 and HV10 a little mystifying myself...

As far as their contention that the HV10 was much worse than the HC3 in low light I just didn't see it. When I shot the video in BB I made a point to shoot some footage up into the rafters in a dark corner of the roof area and they both showed a lot of gain grain and reduced color output. I still thought the HVB10 showed more accurate color between the two there though.

Their assertion that the HV10 looked "softer" in brighter light really kind of blew me away. I watched my clips over and over (even in slow mo) and at no point what-so-ever did the HC3 look sharper to my eyes. To me the HV10 was always at least as sharp and the large majority of the time looked a level better. I paused many times and often distant text on signs was clearly more legible with the HV10. Watching in slo mo really points out the fact that both cams take a pretty big hit in ultimate clarity when zoomed out with even small movement of the camera. The OIS seemed to provide a distinct advantage there.


ron
post #24 of 229
Thread Starter 
Ron and Godobe, this wouldn't be the first time that CCI has released contradictory reviews. Their reviews are often very strange.
post #25 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Ron and Godobe, this wouldn't be the first time that CCI has released contradictory reviews. Their reviews are often very strange.

I think I'm in the market for this new camera HV-10 from Canon now that I made the jump to my first DLP from Samsung, the LED model, if the picture quality is as you describe it, it should be stunning in the 5679 LED from Samsung.
Can you tell me how long is the Component cable that comes with the camera??
If I have a DVD recorder with a front DV input, can I record directly to DVD ??
My last camcorder was the original Canon Optura (1998) version.
This new HD camera will be a big jump for me.
Thanks,
post #26 of 229
Thread Starter 
Luidoly, I believe the component cable is about 6' long. You can always get a shorter or longer cable with no trouble.

I see no reason why you couldn't burn directly to a DVD, but I believe you would have to downconvert to regular SD resolution (mini-DV).

As a sidenote, I just returned from Vegas where I brought the HV10. I was particularly interested in how it did in some lowlight areas the HC1 did not do well in last year when I was there. I went to the same spots where my HC1 had shown quite a bit of grain (some of the poorly lit mall areas in the hotels) and reshot those scenes with the HV10. I found, contrary to what the review said, the HV10 performed better than the HC1. The color, sharpness and focus were better than the same shots from the HC1 and it did this with less video noise. This is not to say the HV10 image was pristine under those conditions, it wasn't, but I found it was better than the HC1. The autofocus on this thing is truly amazing.
post #27 of 229
I am really considering this HD camcorder. I have all pro Canon DSLR camera equipment and have been happy with that. I just can not find any local Tampa store that have this camcorder yet. I found it on line from places at very reduced prices though but I am not much of a internet shopper with products like this. Any ideas? Also would I be able to download the HD video onto a HD DVD and play it in a HD DVD player? How would I go about this?
thanks, Mike
post #28 of 229
Thread Starter 
Mike, I know someone posted how to burn HDV to a DVD, but I don't recall where. I tried it and it didn't work for me, but I know other people did get it to work. As far as availability, I thought either BB or Circuit City was carrying it.
post #29 of 229
Hi Ken, BB does not have it until mid October. CC say's it is coming anyday now. However both places are selling at full retail price. Like everyone else I am looking for a better deal.
post #30 of 229
Ken, have you tried using the HV10 footage output from the HC3 using the HDMI? Or burned the HV10 HD footage to DVD using Ulead and Nero, then playing on a HD-DVD player using the HDMI? I know you have been a great source of info, on these HDV cams, here on the forum. You decided awhile back that you thought the HC3 was slightly better than the HC1. You really liked the HC3. Is the Canon HV10 alot better than the HC3? Could you give us an idea percentage wise, how much better you feel the HV10 is over the HC3?
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