When analog is turned off, people are going to be TICKED!

Stations will have no choice other than to boost their signals once analog is shut off. Even those of us with very good reception have experienced what you describe at one point in time or another...the digital signals are simply not a priority for most broadcasters at this point in the transition. During last week's ongoing rainstorms in the South Florida region I lost all but 3 of the 14 digital channles I can normally tune into. Now, with the weather back to normal, they've all returned. In my opinion, ATSC is the best thing that has happened to television broadcasting in the past 50 years.

If you live fairly close to the broadcast towers, why did you get a 45db amplified antenna?? Get a real and less expensive antenna. Odds are that it work much better than one with a built-in amplifier.

Most every ATSC station is on full power now - what you see is what you get - in fact, as some move back to VHF-HI in 2009, it will probably be better now.

Your problem is caused at least partially by the amplified antenna. You can't use an amplifer when you are close to the TV stations. To much amplification causes distortion of the signals. Have you ever turned your stereo up all the way? Notice how it sounds bad? The same concept can be applied to over-amplification of DTV signals.

Now, if you had a guitar amplifier the effect would be cool, but not for DTV.

(Heheheh full power my a**) Tell that to people in Springfield, MO, Fort Smith, AR, Joplin, MO, Springfield, MO, Little Rock AR, Monroe LA, Shreveport, LA and dozens of other markets that still have low power digitals.

And what you see is not what you get, at the end of analog. When analog is shut down, OTA reception should improve even more, due to less co- and adjacent-channel interference.

ATSC works great where stations are full power and don't have interference from other stations.

Not true, but keep smoking whatever you got.

He actually isn't as far off as you might think. There are studies that prove that. The problem comes from the fact that both NTSC and ATSC use only half of the AM signal. NTSC uses the upper side and ATSC uses the lower side. You get a NTSC on a lower channel to a ATSC and you get interference to the upper ATSC channel. That is why the FCC has been hesitant, without some technical specs to back up a request to put a ATSC station on the next channel above a NTSC station (N+1 and in some cases they didn't have a choice but to do it) but you can take that argument further out that if you have a local NTSC and a distant ATSC as a N+1, you will have a hard time picking up the N+1 ATSC where an ATSC on the lower channel from the NTSC you would be able to pick it up because of less interference.

In the OP's case, as has been pointed out, his problem isn't he has low signal, his problem is he has too much signal and the receiver is being overloaded and not being able to decode anything. YMMV, but my experiments have shown that normally (90% of the time) a pre-amp in the 10-15 db range is all that is needed if you are using an outside antenna to overcome line loss and for an indoor antenna to not use any pre-amplification and that seems to work the best overall unless you have a special case like mountains or some such in the way.

Never use an amplified antenna or a preamp, unless you have a spectrum analyzer .

A degree in Rocket Science, lots of time to waste, and the patience (and disposition) of Mother Theresa are also recommended.

foxeng,
Thanks for the detailed explanation about some of the interference problems ATSC currently faces.

If that was the case, then why are both Fox and ABC increasing their power in Miami?

Ericglo

I would return the antenna and try a different one.

Also:
Do you have the antenna near a window that faces the direction of the towers?
What is your building made of? If it's stucco-on-screen, or if it has foil-backed insulation or a metal roof, any of these can severely limit indoor antenna reception.

My ATSC OTA tuner is very reliable. Perhaps you need a better tuner. Just like cheap analog tuners, cheap digital tuners don't always work well in poor reception areas. Or maybe your antenna is in a dead spot for OTA. It happens. Move your antenna or get an outdoor antenna. Or sell your tuner and watch DVDs.

I get ATSC channels perfectly from 70 miles away, but the old analog chs are completely unwatchable due to snow and severe ghosts.

Wireless indoor reception is always a crap shoot, regardless of the technology. Cell phones don't work in a lot of indoor (and outdoor) locations. Do you think they should scrap those, too, along with ATSC, just because of dead spots?

You must be kidding. ATSC is not unreliable. The stations just need more power and time to work with and update the digital equipment. I find it interesting that you have trouble getting the UHF and not the VHF. I bet a simple four element UHF Yagi would pick up all of the channels easily. I built one for around $5. You should do some more reading on antennas. As for j6p, most of them will probably get their locals from satellite or cable despite the reduction in quality from OTA.

Ericglo

But the questions on your building construction and layout apply 100% to NTSC broadcasting as well. If anything, ATSC is more reliable with steady picture quality than I ever got for the weaker NTSC signals. One of the issues with ATSC is that most ATSC stations are currently located in UHF and in areas with dense woods or steep hilly terrain, UHF does not carry as well as VHF. Once the analog shutdown occurs, most of the upper VHF stations will switch their digital channels back to the upper VHF channels which will address those problems in many areas. But we are stuck with dual broadcasting during this transition period.

What antennas have you tried? If you are getting those built to look vaguely like a stealth airplane or something out of a home/interior design magazine that the Best Buys and Circuit Cities sell, you are very probably getting a crappy and overpriced antenna. How far are you from your broadcast towers? If you are within 10 or so miles, a Zenith/Philips Silver Sensor usually works very well and can be found for $20 to $25. Heck, start with a simple bowtie or loop antenna for UHF and rabbit ears for VHF if you are fairly close in.

Yep. Just like ANALog, digital tv antenna selection is trial and error. Like afiggatt said, start with the simplest antenna and work your way up. And avoid fancy overhyped "designer" or "HDTV" antennas that don't look like antennas. They are usually just a crappy antenna in a fancy overpriced plastic housing.

Digital TV uses the same frequencies and antennas that analog used.

Seeing that the antenna you've got has a 45 db amp, I'm guessing that it's one of those RCA or Philips Walmart models.

Take it back! Those thing are crap! The noise figures on those things are very high. Even Radio Shack's usually work better. The "official" Silver Sensor is much better than that encased, amped Philips clone that W.M. sells. The differences between the two are like night and day. Try that or the $15.00 double bowtie from R.S., if all your stations are UHF.

As far as having to try 5 different antennas - we all did!! Some many more!! Just try to get them from places where you can easily return them. You may really have to experiment to find a "sweet spot" for the placement. And higher is usually better.

There is no way to compare "reliability" of ATSC and NTSC because they fail in different ways. You always can "get" NTSC, if you can develop even about -25dBmV coming off the antenna, but it will look like someone wiped your picture tube with sandpaper, whereas ATSC is either perfect or stammering. Trying to peak the performance of a single, multipurpose ATSC antenna is exasperating, because you can't "see" the tradeoffs you are making as you degrade one signal while improving another.

When the temporary allocations were being given out, it looked to me like the FCC initially favored N+1 assignments (at least, they did in the big markets that I evaluated) because they were more concerned with preserving the picture quality of the NTSC station rather than enhancing the reliability of the ATSC one, but those priorities have now reversed.

In Washington, DC, the low power analog NTSC stations are migrating into the city to be right next to adjacent full power ATSC transmitters, making them unwatchable for now, but when they do the "cold switch" in February of 2009, they will become adjacent ATSC channels that will be about ten to twelve dB below the co-located, adjacent full-powered transmitters, and since ATSC works reliably with adjacent ATSC channels nearly 20dB stronger (I have no trouble tuning Batlimore ATSC 52, which is adjacent to Washington 51, and Baltimore 40, adjacent to Washington 39, with over 15dB of power differential), the owners of these little LPTV stations will be able to get rich by running six infomercials at a time. They will lose the fringe, but have excellent coverage of a metroplitan area of over 1,000,000 people

Truth is, in most bigger cities the stations should probably all turn their power down.

The problems are, mostly, that there are far too many signals, and they run at too different levels. A simple indoor or outdoor antenna would then be sufficient for most locations. Most tuners and preamps can't handle the "assault" of multiple high powered signals. (We have about 36 TV channels running in SLC right now, probably will add another 8 or so when the LPTVs get their Digital Companion channels on the air. Added to the dozens of full-power and low-power "booster" FMs, it's an electronic nightmare.

Don't most LPTV stations plan to flash cut to digital?

" just got a ProBrand ATSC tuner yesterday. I think I spent more time toying with the reception than I did actually watching programming. I live on the edge of Madison, WI and fairly close to the TV stations here. Despite that and buying a 45db amplified antennae, it's still hit or miss."

Why did you buy the particular models (especially the antenna) that you did?

I'm curious if you were given some bad advice. Did someone at a store, maybe, recommend something without knowing what your location/circumstances were? Maybe one of those web-based antenna sites?

This stuff should not be "rocket science" in most cases.

That's IF any channels in your area are going to end up on VHF. You need to check that first.

Actually, the flimsiness of the Silver Sensor is very deceiving. It looks goofy and feels cheap, I know, but it really does work like a champ. If you find one good spot where it works well, you can always tack it down. The Terk HDTVi doesn't get very good reviews (their HDTVa gets better ones, but you don't need that amp), although at your distance, it might work. But it's also obscenely overpriced, at twice the cost of the SS.

fettastic,

Cut and paste your antennaweb results... maybe you are too close and overdriving the signal(s).... overloading the tuner.

I have a cheap UHF only antenna from RS for $14.99 and it picks up all digital stations from 22-26 miles away with no problems or cutting out. Analog simply looks horrible!!! At least in the Phila market, digital seems very reliable.

Which model are you using?

Of course digital is reliable! The problem is that not everyone is in the same location, terrain, home structure, trees, yada,yada...

I'm only approx. 18 miles away from the Philly towers and tried 4 different indoor antennas and two attic mounted outdoor antennas.

A CM4228 was is the final solution. (only because of WTXF).

Many times what works for "you" may not work for the guy across the street.

CM 4228 is fantastic if you're away from the towers a bit.