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Ok Folks! Show me your dots! - Page 2  

post #31 of 283
Thread Starter 
Hey guys, now it is your turn to post screenshots.

Lots of people have posted here but no-one other than Scott has posted anything which I can compare with.

so PLEASE post a pic here of what you think is a good image and something which I can also project from my PJ and post. That is the only way we can do a "oranges to oranges" type comparison.

Please help! :)
post #32 of 283
My camera is awful. After much frustration I sorta have a pic worth attaching but it looks nothing near as good as on screen. It's over 1mb... Without having to sign up for some crap account on a picture hosting site I don't know how to get it up here, max is 500k.

Pm me your email and I'll send it.

Troy
post #33 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcCinema
You've already changed the glycol? When you did that did you clean the thin layer of white muck off the inside of the c-elements and off the face of the tube?

Somethings very very wrong... Compare the focus you get on each color individually and post pics of one color at a time. Blue looks especially fuzzy.

Also you may be driving them all too hard, that'll create blooming, but still not to the extent of bad focus you seem to have. How many hours on those tubes? They can appear like new but be worn to hell and that can also account for horrible focus.

Troy

Troy,
Yes, I had cleaned everything nicely. There was no muck on the faces of the C element and the tube anyway. Just the glycol was murky.

Check the pics above. I have posted each color seperately.

I think the PJ is resolving 720p quite nicely. At least each individual color is resolving nicely. So it boils down to convergence, right?

Maybe my convergence is not 100% there (I KNOW it)?

I am pretty sure I am not driving these tubes into blooming.

No way to check the hrs, the counter was glitched when I changed the battery.
post #34 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcCinema
My camera is awful. After much frustration I sorta have a pic worth attaching but it looks nothing near as good as on screen. It's over 1mb... Without having to sign up for some crap account on a picture hosting site I don't know how to get it up here, max is 500k.

Pm me your email and I'll send it.

Troy

Try http://www.tinypic.com/ for image hosting. you dont have to sign up.

I just sent you my e-mail via PM
post #35 of 283
emailed it.

You will see lots and lots of camera pixelation but if you look past that you can see lines are actually fairly well defined. On screen it's so much better it's not even funny.

1080i from radeon 9800pro to 708s given no warm up for the pj and no convergence touchup to compensate.

Troy
post #36 of 283
The faint horizontal lines on the green 720p pic are scanlines. I can't really see them on the red and blue. The green 1080p shows one line on, one line off in the upper right box. That shows the tube can resolve 1920x1080p.

See how dark the upper left box is? The vertical lines that are in there are happening at about an 80MHz frequency. The signal going to the CRT is low in amplitude at that freq. The two top boxes should be about the same brightness, like in the green 720p image.

It is normal for that pattern to flash with interlaced signals. Half the horizontal lines get put up every field. The other half in the next field. It's like running at a 30Hz refresh rate. Doesn't hurt anything.

If you can get the focus on the blue and red better the projector will look alot better.

Scott
post #37 of 283
Yes after going back and seeing your individual colors you have the potential there to do better than I've seen any ampro ever do.

You're just missing something with blue and red and fine convergence too probably.

BTW when you converge are you standing up next to the screen so you can see the smallest variation? if you're sitting back doing it from far away forget it.

I can't do it from even 6 or 7 feet away, my eyes can't see well enough and I still test as 20/20. I stand with my nose up at the screen so I can see the slightest variation. Obviously my non warmed up pic doesn't show that though. I didn't do my final install this is a temp floor setup at improper toe in so warmup is crutial in my case.

Troy
post #38 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude
Hi Chip,
The screen is 76 inches wide.

I know some people here have told me (due to the smallish screen) that I need HD10L instead, but the Ampro's manual says otherwise. :confused:

There is another guy here who is doign a swap and I am waiting for him to post something :)
Beg, borrow or steal a set of 10L's to try. Straight 10's suck big time on a screen of that size no matter what brand PJ it is.

Chip
post #39 of 283
As I stated, I believe the issue is setup related. Do you understand things like toe in and mechanical focus?
You have to aim the blue and green tubes/lens assemblys correctly and then adust the inner/outer focus rings and also you must move to the bolts around the tubes and make your fine adjustments to correct for the angle of the lenses. this is a process of going back and forth and back and forth between all of the adjustments . I am assuming you are loosening the correct bolts on the tube carriage before doing any of these adjustments.

If you still can't get things right then it's time to check astig etc. The Ampro 4200 sits near the top of CRT projectors, Better than any 8" I've owned. You can expect a near perfect image very sharp detailed which should be better than 90% of all projectors and just a step ot two below the 9 inchers by Sony and Electrohome.
post #40 of 283
One thing to note. If the tubes are Sony 9" ers they will not focus as sharp as the Panasonic 9" ers. Not a gross difference but a difference. Most 4200s had the Sony CRTs. A few were made with Panasonic. They were actually model 4205s.

Scott
post #41 of 283
Testing this link, so other people can see what a quote 5.5" (7") ES machine is capable of with 1080i "improperly set up":

http://i9.tinypic.com/2a61n3d.jpg

/test over

btw it's nice I didn't have to sign up for anything or get junk email sent to me forever to post this. Pretty sweet..

Yes I know you can see blue is off one click to the right and red is off one click to the left.

**** it's still scaling the image though. It makes it look even worse than the pic I emailed. Original image is 2000 something by 1024? Much larger than displayed and equals less than 1/8 to 1/10th of the full screens size. I shot only the video control panel at it's default size as close as I could get without blocking the pj. Anyone know a place I can upload the pic where it won't be downscaled? I'd like to show it off properly but this just doesn't cut it.

Look close enough and you might see the weave in the DIY behr ultra white painted canvas on my home made screen. I sold my studiotek 130 tab tensioned luxus deluxe electric filmscreen screen long ago. For the $1000+ price difference I can't say as I miss it. That $1000 paid some bills.


Troy
post #42 of 283
have to get my camera back first. I loaned it to a friend.
post #43 of 283
Hi,

This 1080p pattern posted by Tse...do I just save it on to my PC. And then set the resolution to 1920 x 1080 on my PC, open the image and then project it using the PJ?

This is probably a naive question, so apologies!

Rajdude, I have a Ampro 4300 which I've just finished working on (changed to color filtered c-elements, removed belly fans and used ducts and an inline fan to suck out all the air, and in addition added a cooling duct as well which blows cold air into the PJ). I just finished mounting it onto the ceiling this week, and haven't had time to do any setup...so will send some pics of how I've done the ducts if you like.
post #44 of 283
Rajiv,

your green 720p picture shows scanlines, the 1080p screenshot does not.
So I do not understand why you ask about scanlines at 1080p ?

It seems that your 4200 is quite a bit bandwidth limited, even at 720p not all the vertical lines in the upper left box are visible.

You desktop looking so bad might get better with lower contrast, maybe detail is blurred due to blooming - you should try that.

Still I think you should be able to do better with that projector, how far from that 76" screen did you hang that projector ?

Oliver
post #45 of 283
Rajiv,

your green 720p picture shows scanlines, the 1080p screenshot does not.
So I do not understand why you ask about scanlines at 1080p ?

It seems that your 4200 is severely bandwidth limited, even at 720p not all the vertical lines in the upper left box are visible.

You desktop looking so bad might get better with lower contrast, you should try that.

Still I think you should be able to do better with that projector, how far from that 76" screen did you hang that projector ?

Oliver
post #46 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude
Hi Oliver!
Check my screenshots above. I have a screen shot at 1080p, I can barely read text.

"line twitter" ?? :confused: :confused:

What is that?

I do see some sort of lines at 1080p, judging from your post....maybe they are not really scanlines. :confused:

It is very interesting that your 9PG which is ranked much lower than the 4200 [at Curt's site http://www.curtpalme.com/Projector_Rankings.shtm] can do so much better.

Then I guess it is a setup fault.
Rajiv,

two more things:
I had another look at what you might presume to be scanlines: It looks like you have some kind of inverse streaking where the area behind the boxes exhibits darker lines that are the same height as the alternating lines in the boxes.

Regarding the projector quality ranking on Curt's site: I do not agree with it and my biggest gripe with it is that the Ampros are not ranked properly (IMO they have to be ranked much lower).

Oliver
post #47 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinx
As I stated, I believe the issue is setup related. Do you understand things like toe in and mechanical focus?
Yessss sire! Of course I know all those things, :) but as I have stated earlier too, I have not set it up 100%, maybe only 70-80%. I will do it friday night, Oh that is tonight !! HOORAY !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinx
If you still can't get things right then it's time to check astig etc. .
Astig is also 90% there, I can tweak it further. tonight...tonight :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinx
If you still can't get things right then it's time to check astig etc. The Ampro 4200 sits near the top of CRT projectors, Better than any 8" I've owned. You can expect a near perfect image very sharp detailed which should be better than 90% of all projectors and just a step ot two below the 9 inchers by Sony and Electrohome.
Hmmm... good to hear that. Do you have a 4200? If so, can you please post some screenshots. How about Scott's (tse) test bitmap. That is very revealing.
post #48 of 283
Thread Starter 
Yes Scott,
These are Sony 09MI tubes.

I think Focus is the weak point in this PJ. Sharp pinpoint dots are difficult to do somehow. I will put out my Sony 1270 tonight, I bet its dots were sharper.

Can that Focus board be somehow upgraded/improved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tse
One thing to note. If the tubes are Sony 9" ers they will not focus as sharp as the Panasonic 9" ers. Not a gross difference but a difference. Most 4200s had the Sony CRTs. A few were made with Panasonic. They were actually model 4205s.

Scott
post #49 of 283
Thread Starter 
Troy,
Here is the image you e-mailed to me.
I posted it to my server so everyone can see what you are talking about.

CLICK HERE

I agree it is sharp but still it is nowhere near what a good digital can do. Even my lowly office projector can do sharper text.

I remember talking to Art about it since I feel his setup cant show graphics as sharp as a digital. (I know people will kill me!) Even he agreed that a CRT does not do computer graphics as sharp as a digital PJ.

Is that really true ?

I wonder why no-one is taking this up!
Come on! Show me how sharp your pic is!


Quote:
Originally Posted by pcCinema
.... It makes it look even worse than the pic I emailed. Original image is 2000 something by 1024? Much larger than displayed and equals less than 1/8 to 1/10th of the full screens size. I shot only the video control panel at it's default size as close as I could get without blocking the pj. Anyone know a place I can upload the pic where it won't be downscaled? I'd like to show it off properly but this just doesn't cut it.

Look close enough and you might see the weave in the DIY behr ultra white painted canvas on my home made screen. I sold my studiotek 130 tab tensioned luxus deluxe electric filmscreen screen long ago. For the $1000+ price difference I can't say as I miss it. That $1000 paid some bills.


Troy
post #50 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaz782
Hi,

This 1080p pattern posted by Tse...do I just save it on to my PC. And then set the resolution to 1920 x 1080 on my PC, open the image and then project it using the PJ?

This is probably a naive question, so apologies!
Yes, you got that one right. Just don’t scale the picture when you open it up using some software. For example : if you open that bmp using the Windows’ Picture and Fax viewer (the default app) press that button at the bottom which says “Actual Size (Control +A)â€



Quote:
Originally Posted by shaz782
Rajdude, I have a Ampro 4300 which I've just finished working on (changed to color filtered c-elements, removed belly fans and used ducts and an inline fan to suck out all the air, and in addition added a cooling duct as well which blows cold air into the PJ). I just finished mounting it onto the ceiling this week, and haven't had time to do any setup...so will send some pics of how I've done the ducts if you like.

Wow wow wow !! :D :D
So I found someone who is doing similar things ! Cool dude. lets keep in touch !
And YES, please do send/post the images. I really want to see them!!

We can discuss all this in my other troubleshooting thread if you wish. (more appropriate)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=628463


How are you blowing cold air into the PJ? What happens in the winter when the AC blows hot air? That will surely overheat the PJ in no time. Or are you having a AC just for this PJ ?

How about the power-supply fan? Did you swap it?
I enlarged the hole and put in a 80mm fan there. I still am looking for a quieter fan for that location but haven’t ordered on yet.
post #51 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs
Rajiv,

your green 720p picture shows scanlines, the 1080p screenshot does not.
So I do not understand why you ask about scanlines at 1080p ?
I ask so because I see a lot of lines and I am not sure if they are scan-lines anymore!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs
It seems that your 4200 is quite a bit bandwidth limited, even at 720p not all the vertical lines in the upper left box are visible.
Actually it is better in person. That screenshot was taken by my relatively crappy point and shoot. I need a digital SLR camera!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs
You desktop looking so bad might get better with lower contrast, maybe detail is blurred due to blooming - you should try that.
Hmmmm… Makes sense Ok I will try that tonight!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs

Still I think you should be able to do better with that projector, how far from that 76" screen did you hang that projector ?

Oliver
I will measure it and post tonight.
post #52 of 283
By your pics, 720p is pushing it and at the edge. I'd be curious to see if it can't handle the 1920 or 1920x1080i. Did you try this pattern on 1080i?

Dave
post #53 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
By your pics, 720p is pushing it and at the edge. I'd be curious to see if it can't handle the 1920 or 1920x1080i. Did you try this pattern on 1080i?

Dave

Yes, I did. It started flashing so I did not take a screenshot.

I posted this info above and Scott said that flashing is OK.

I will take a screenshot at 1080i tonight and post here.
post #54 of 283
Rajdude,

Thanks for clarifying the BMP image thing.

Yes I we Ampro'ers need to help out each other as Dion would say!
I'm sure you must have seen his site.

I will post some stuff on your other thread about cooling.
I went overkill really...I have an air-conditioning (spot air conditioner -- located on the second floor ) which has a 120pi duct specifically dedicated for the projector --
try overheating on me now(!).......actually to be honest it never did...
but I just wanted to keep it fairly cool with the extreme humid summers we
have over here....summer were a bit tough....

It took me a few months to do it cos I had to re-enforce my ceiling with additional
Ipe beams.

Will get some more pics and info for you on your other thread which is probably more appropriate.
post #55 of 283
Thread Starter 
Please check my other thread. LINK I am continuing this conversation over there :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaz782
Rajdude,

Thanks for clarifying the BMP image thing.

Yes I we Ampro'ers need to help out each other as Dion would say!
I'm sure you must have seen his site.

I will post some stuff on your other thread about cooling.
I went overkill really...I have an air-conditioning (spot air conditioner -- located on the second floor ) which has a 120pi duct specifically dedicated for the projector --
try overheating on me now(!).......actually to be honest it never did...
but I just wanted to keep it fairly cool with the extreme humid summers we
have over here....summer were a bit tough....

It took me a few months to do it cos I had to re-enforce my ceiling with additional
Ipe beams.

Will get some more pics and info for you on your other thread which is probably more appropriate.
post #56 of 283
If you want one pixel on next to one pixel off type sharpness then of course nothing beats a digital. Sharpness is built into the design, and also part of it's drawback.

I wasn't implying my 7" ES machine was all that, just showing you I can do far better than your 9" EM is currently doing even with my convergence off so clearly there's something wrong with yours. My text is clearly readable and on screen it looks perfectly sharp from my viewing distance and far better than my camera can show.

Troy
post #57 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcCinema
If you want one pixel on next to one pixel off type sharpness then of course nothing beats a digital. Sharpness is built into the design, and also part of it's drawback.

I wasn't implying my 7" ES machine was all that, just showing you I can do far better than your 9" EM is currently doing even with my convergence off so clearly there's something wrong with yours. My text is clearly readable and on screen it looks perfectly sharp from my viewing distance and far better than my camera can show.

Troy

I agree Troy,
Your pic is MUCH sharper than mine. and I remember my Sony 1270 is sharper than this Ampro.

And THAT is my problem... :mad: Why does this PJ not giving me a sharper image. I am sure it is a setup type fault. I am going to work on it.

Thanks for your help!
post #58 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude


Hmmm... good to hear that. Do you have a 4200? If so, can you please post some screenshots. How about Scott's (tse) test bitmap. That is very revealing.
I had a 4200 years ago and if the dot pattern is sharper on your 1270 then something is very wrong with your setup tubes or projector.
post #59 of 283
I'd like to show you how tight the dots are on my 4600HD but.....I think I'm having a problem with my green tube
LL
post #60 of 283
What the heck happened Chip? Is it the tube face that's cracked? I think you need to update your sig.

Troy
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