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Will temporary lack of 1080p24 native output hurt HD-DVD?

post #1 of 99
9/20/06 at 12:13pm
Thread Starter 
There is a buzz on the Blu-Ray boards about 1080p24 output on the new Sony BD player. Having just recently realized what 3:2 pulldown judder is (I've seen it forever, just never thought much about it), I realized that this is another selling point that Sony may jump all over.

The 1080i outputs on the HD-A1 are a non-issue, as it makes no difference to anything but the most brain-dead HDTV, but it is the BD's main distinguishing point, at least until the HD-XA2.

Native 1080p24 output won't help 99% of the real world either -- YET. But, it will future-proof the player in the case of HDTV upgrades in the coming years. While we have all lived with 3:2 pulldown judder in movies forever, there is likely going to be a real difference in quality when it is removed. It isn't about resolution -- it's about perceived smoothness. I'm sure we've seen video-based nature HD shows on TV that have that smoothness. I do remember thinking "hey, that's smoother than a movie". It may make our HDTV experience more "real".

Will Sony et al. jump on this as a reason why BD is "better"? Will Toshiba or another company's player do 1080p24 native output anytime soon? I would hate to see people actually think BD is better picture quality, just because Toshiba stayed with the Broadcom chip too long!

___________________________________________
UPDATE:
Does the XA2 have 24p output capability? Oshodi's linked thread says so, then says no, then gets into a philosophical discussion. If the XA2 has 24p, the reason for this thread is a bit moot.
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post #2 of 99
9/20/06 at 12:19pm
But what display do you use? Can it display a multiple of 24hz?

Ive long wondered about the judder, I only have 60hz to watch movies in and have never seen a movie in 24xhz, except on my 19inch LCd at 72hz but I couldnt really see a difference, possibly due to the size.

I somewhat find it hard to beleive that if the picture changes speed 24 times a second that it would be percievable.
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post #3 of 99
9/20/06 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioNeil View Post

There is a buzz on the Blu-Ray boards about 1080p24 output on the new Sony BD player. Having just recently realized what 3:2 pulldown judder is (I've seen it forever, just never thought much about it), I realized that this is another selling point that Sony may jump all over.

The 1080i outputs on the HD-A1 are a non-issue, as it makes no difference to anything but the most brain-dead HDTV, but it is the BD's main distinguishing point, at least until the HD-XA2.

Native 1080p24 output won't help 99% of the real world either -- YET. But, it will future-proof the player in the case of HDTV upgrades in the coming years. While we have all lived with 3:2 pulldown judder in movies forever, there is likely going to be a real difference in quality when it is removed. It isn't about resolution -- it's about perceived smoothness. I'm sure we've seen video-based nature HD shows on TV that have that smoothness. I do remember thinking "hey, that's smoother than a movie". It may make our HDTV experience more "real".

Will Sony et al. jump on this as a reason why BD is "better"? Will Toshiba or another company's player do 1080p24 native output anytime soon? I would hate to see people actually think BD is better picture quality, just because Toshiba stayed with the Broadcom chip too long!

The new HD-XA2 does offer 1080P! You should probably read the info in this thread;

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=723570
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post #4 of 99
9/20/06 at 12:30pm
The new HD-XA2 offers 1080P24->1080i60->1080P60 not the same as outputting native 1080P24.
In answer to the OPs question I would say very few care about 1080P24 since about 0.1% of the displays and a couple of scalers accept it.
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post #5 of 99
9/20/06 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by obie_fl View Post

In answer to the OPs question I would say very few care about 1080P24 since about 0.1% of the displays and a couple of scalers accept it.

That wasn't the question.
Good to know, however OP asked;
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioNeil View Post

Will Sony et al. jump on this as a reason why BD is "better"? Will Toshiba or another company's player do 1080p24 native output anytime soon? I would hate to see people actually think BD is better picture quality, just because Toshiba stayed with the Broadcom chip too long!

As you can see it's all about "marketing".
Which Sony has used to their benefit before, w/o any real "benefit", ala 50GB disc.
Hence, people on the street think BD (25GB, at present) is bigger than HD DVD (30GB at present).
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post #6 of 99
9/20/06 at 12:41pm
Native 1080/24p is nice, but I doubt its a fair selling point to most consumers. Then again, most consumers won't know that fact and will buy it because its

1. Sony
2. Sony is good.

Not realizing that Sony has changed faces about 10 times since they last purchased a CE device.

The marketing war seems to be won by Sony. The 150 million or whatever HD DVD was planning on being spent probably won't materialize until Sony has entrenched itself in consumer minds. I hope that HD DVD starts airing now (and I don't mean mentioning a DVD is out on HD DVD during an ad) to preempt Sony, but I see no signs of this. The mentioning that HD DVD exists is like putting (available in HD) people don't notice unless they have a vested interest in paying attention.
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post #7 of 99
9/20/06 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioNeil View Post

There is a buzz on the Blu-Ray boards about 1080p24 output on the new Sony BD player. Having just recently realized what 3:2 pulldown judder is (I've seen it forever, just never thought much about it), I realized that this is another selling point that Sony may jump all over.

The 1080i outputs on the HD-A1 are a non-issue, as it makes no difference to anything but the most brain-dead HDTV, but it is the BD's main distinguishing point, at least until the HD-XA2.

Native 1080p24 output won't help 99% of the real world either -- YET. But, it will future-proof the player in the case of HDTV upgrades in the coming years. While we have all lived with 3:2 pulldown judder in movies forever, there is likely going to be a real difference in quality when it is removed. It isn't about resolution -- it's about perceived smoothness. I'm sure we've seen video-based nature HD shows on TV that have that smoothness. I do remember thinking "hey, that's smoother than a movie". It may make our HDTV experience more "real".

Will Sony et al. jump on this as a reason why BD is "better"? Will Toshiba or another company's player do 1080p24 native output anytime soon? I would hate to see people actually think BD is better picture quality, just because Toshiba stayed with the Broadcom chip too long!

___________________________________________
UPDATE:
It looks like the HD-XA2 may have native 1080p24 output as well as 1080p60 output for displays that don't accept the 24???? There so much FUD on this topic, I haven't figured it out. If indeed the XA2 has the 24p output capability, the reason for this thread is a bit moot.


Not really.
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post #8 of 99
9/20/06 at 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by obie_fl View Post

...In answer to the OPs question I would say very few care about 1080P24 since about 0.1% of the displays and a couple of scalers accept it.

I care because my projector accepts and displays 48Hz.
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post #9 of 99
9/20/06 at 12:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by necrolop View Post

But what display do you use? Can it display a multiple of 24hz?

Ive long wondered about the judder, I only have 60hz to watch movies in and have never seen a movie in 24xhz, except on my 19inch LCd at 72hz but I couldnt really see a difference, possibly due to the size.

I somewhat find it hard to beleive that if the picture changes speed 24 times a second that it would be percievable.

Well, the speed changes in a ratio of 3:2, 12-times a second. So, it's a 12 Hz judder that you see. Can you count to 12 in your head in 1 second? It's difficult but possible. Well, each of those numbers is the judder you see as an object with a clear edge does a smooth pan across your screen. I saw it clearly on Troy last night when I was watching the city walls pan by. I realize I've always seen it on pans.

And no, my display doesn't do 24 Hz natively. The issue is whether 24p output will be used as a Marketing tool by BD, even if it's FUD for 99% of current displays. However, like the best FUD, there is a grain of truth behind it -- 24p will make the world a better place one day for movies! And, given two $1000 players, one Sony BD and one Toshiba HD-DVD (without knowing that HD-DVD is best), I might even choose the 1080p24 one, if I were planning on getting a new HDTV between 1 and 3 years in the future (when 24p displays may be more common).
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post #10 of 99
9/20/06 at 12:59pm
I was watching Sleepy Hallow just now. And a scene in the forrest, has leaves on the ground, lots of thin dark edges. When the camera pans, a noticeable flicker occurs. Is it just how it is, I have a 1080p sony LCD and sharp edges on an LCD are very sharp, no dithering. So is this just a result of the movement of sharp edges, or is this caused by pull up judder?
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post #11 of 99
9/20/06 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioNeil View Post

Will Toshiba or another company's player do 1080p24 native output anytime soon?


If someone cares enough about displaying 24p source without judder(48/72), then he would get an external video processor and reconstruct the perfect 24p from the 1080i60 output of HD DVD players. Or he could use a PC solution(currently laptop only) to get perfect 72Hz output.

Also, other hi-end CE manufacture will release HD DVD player with this feature very soon. So by the time 48/72 display become common, you will have many hd dvd players with 24p output.
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post #12 of 99
9/20/06 at 1:06pm
Pioneer has put support for this in at least some of their latest plasmas and Sony has added 1080p24 input with a multiple of that displayed to their Pearl projector (VW50). I don't know if they will add that to the RPTVs or other displays. I expect the 24Hz thing to be the next big thing with videophiles and moving down. You don't see 60Hz in commercial theaters with some frames shown twice and some three times, you see frame doubling from the 24Hz original (or maybe frame tripling in some cases).

While I don't consider it a huge deal, it is a little bit like going from DVD to HD for some in the sense that going back is hard to do. I do 1080p48 with HD DVD right now, but it requires a scaler to do it and takes away some of the "Blu-ray costs twice as much as HD DVD" argument when other components required to get the multiple of 24Hz picture are considered.

Just to confirm, I asked Toshiba about 1080p24 out of the X-A2 and they told me no, only 1080p60. And external scaler like the DVDO could get 1080p24, but there is that extra money thing again. And with PIP running, getting 1080p24 without problems by using an external scaler gets complicated and maybe impossible to do without artifacts.

--Darin
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post #13 of 99
9/20/06 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lymzy View Post

If someone cares enough about displaying 24p source without judder(48/72), then he would get an external video processor and reconstruct the perfect 24p from the 1080i60 output of HD DVD players. Or he could use a PC solution(currently laptop only) to get perfect 72Hz output...

My iScan VP 50 should be here any day. I can't wait to get rid of the judder from HD-DVD. Also you can't use 1080p 72Hz over HDMI/DVI but 48Hz gives the same results.
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post #14 of 99
9/20/06 at 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

And with PIP running, getting 1080p24 without problems by using an external scaler gets complicated and maybe impossible to do without artifacts.

As long as we are talking about external video processors with their prices...

Although I really don't care a lot about judder on a PiP talking head, it seems that is just another reason to do a serious upgrade and get a 120 Hz refresh display. Wouldn't that work if it had the right built in processing to take in the current flagged 1080i60 output of the HD DVD player and correctly display both the p/24sf film based content and 30p PiP content? Seem to recall Stacey or Ben saying this.

Bob
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post #15 of 99
9/20/06 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

As long as we are talking about external video processors with their prices...

Although I really don't care a lot about judder on a PiP talking head, it seems that is just another reason to do a serious upgrade and get a 120 Hz refresh display. Wouldn't that work if it had the right built in processing to take in the current flagged 1080i60 output of the HD DVD player and correctly display both the p/24sf film based content and 30p PiP content? Seem to recall Stacey or Ben saying this.

If the player could do it that would be great. I think it would be a whole lot more complicated for an external scaler to figure out was was PIP and what was the main image in that 1080i60 content it sees. I wouldn't want to have to design a system that could do that error free.

--Darin
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post #16 of 99
9/20/06 at 1:57pm
There was a broadcom engineer that posted here a while ago that said the decoder in the HD-A1 is capable of 1080p24. The silicon image HDMI chip also has sufficient bandwidth for 24hz as well.

Shouldn't it be possible to support this in the HD-A1 with a firmware upgrade? Why isn't that happening?
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post #17 of 99
9/20/06 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfield View Post

There was a broadcom engineer that posted here a while ago that said the decoder in the HD-A1 is capable of 1080p24. The silicon image HDMI chip also has sufficient bandwidth for 24hz as well.

Shouldn't it be possible to support this in the HD-A1 with a firmware upgrade? Why isn't that happening?


Likely because Toshiba doesn't see mutiples of 24Hz output as a priority. There's only a the pioneer TV's that can accept it and a lot of projectors, but while pj's are pretty common these days, they're still much less common that flat panel LCD/plasmas. I'm hoping Toshiba releases a firmware update to their players, but I'm hoping even more that I can pickup a HD-DVD drive for my PC.
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post #18 of 99
9/20/06 at 3:39pm
1080p means jack sh*t, it's all marketing. Human nature thinks bigger is better.
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post #19 of 99
9/20/06 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blkout View Post

1080p means jack sh*t, it's all marketing. Human nature thinks bigger is better.

Hahaha... all sorts of crap flying around. You got the Sony fanboys 1080p rules, then you got people saying that 1080p doesn't mean anything like this guy. For people with displays that can take mutiples of 24Hz, 1080p/24Hz DOES MATTER. I can't stand 3:2 pulldown judder.
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post #20 of 99
9/20/06 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoked View Post

Hahaha... all sorts of crap flying around. You got the Sony fanboys 1080p rules, then you got people saying that 1080p doesn't mean anything like this guy. For people with displays that can take mutiples of 24Hz, 1080p/24Hz DOES MATTER. I can't stand 3:2 pulldown judder.


It's not about judder, it's about 1080p not looking any better than 1080i. You missed the point and the boat. I would expect you to defend your 1080p display since you wasted money on marketing hype. Kind of stings I'm sure.
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post #21 of 99
9/20/06 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blkout View Post

It's not about judder, it's about 1080p not looking any better than 1080i. You missed the point and the boat.

This thread is about 1080p24 native output...
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post #22 of 99
9/20/06 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoked View Post

This thread is about 1080p24 native output...


And again, not needed. Swim Forrest swim!
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post #23 of 99
9/20/06 at 4:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blkout View Post

And again, not needed. Swim Forrest swim!

And why is it not needed? Are you going to link to some article that makes assumptions that ALL TV sets can reproduce 1080p from a 1080i/60 source perfectly? Or that no one can see 3:2 pulldown judder?
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post #24 of 99
9/20/06 at 4:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blkout View Post

And again, not needed. Swim Forrest swim!

HD isn't "needed" either. What is your point? Are you claiming that there is no advantage to displaying at a multiple of 24Hz (like commercial cinemas do), or that you just don't care even if it is better (or something else)? Film is supposed to be displayed progressively, not interlaced, which isn't a problem with progressive displays but there is definitely an advantage to displaying each frame the same number of times instead of displaying some frame (like every other) a different number of times.

I don't know of any displays that can take 1080i in and display that progressively at a multiple of 24Hz, but maybe there are some. I already know there are displays that can take 1080p24 and show that at a multiple of 24Hz.

I may have been the first one who pointed out after CES how the Blu-ray camp was misleading people with the "We're 1080p and they're 1080i" stuff, but this 1080p24 is a real feature.

--Darin
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post #25 of 99
9/20/06 at 4:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blkout View Post

It's not about judder, it's about 1080p not looking any better than 1080i. You missed the point and the boat. I would expect you to defend your 1080p display since you wasted money on marketing hype. Kind of stings I'm sure.

I have been using 48Hz from my HTPC to my projector with DVD's and there is NO judder. I see judder on all HD-DVD's and the iScan 50 will take 1080i 60Hz and incode to 48Hz to totally eliminate judder. It is too bad the player won't do this.
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post #26 of 99
9/20/06 at 4:37pm
I can't believe 1080 24p would make much difference right now.

Largely, what you get rid of is judder.

I remember one time I had my WAF at a high-end demo, and the demonstrator was trying to show an example of judder and how 72p eliminated it. He must have run the demo 10 times, a piece from Titanic that had a very smooth digital pan in it.

My wife simply could not see what was going on. I could see it but, hey, not the biggest deal. [She still refers to this as an example of how I waste money on new equipment. And I didn't even BUY the equipment being demoed!]

A vastly bigger problem for me is the overall frame rate of 24fps. But this is a production issue, not a presentation issue anyway. [I want 4320 92p. ]

HD DVD will suffer no problems for this whatever.
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post #27 of 99
9/20/06 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlsmith View Post

I can't believe 1080 24p would make much difference right now.

My wife simply could not see what was going on. I could see it but, hey, not the biggest deal.

Well everyone has different sensitivities. I see judder and it annoys me. I don't see DLP rainbows, SDE doesn't really bug me, but someone else for example, may not know what judder is, sees rainbows on DLP's and will make a projector choice based on how bad SDE is. 1080p/24 isn't a dealkiller for me, just a would be nice, which is why I'd rather grab a HD-DVD drive and keep using my HTPC for playback if I can.
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post #28 of 99
9/20/06 at 5:14pm
I've posted time-points in HD-DVD movies where I thought judder was quite noticeable. Come to find out, I hadn't set my Sony SXRD XBR1 to Cinemotion to do the 3:2 pulldown for film content.

Doing so made quite a difference, but some judder is still detectable. But I've always noticed judder in SD-DVDs and even in the theatre sometimes.

I read the Pearl will handle 1080p24, does the Ruby do so natively? Is anyone running their HD-A1 through a video processor and outputting 1080p24 to a Ruby? And is the judder "gone?" I'd really like to see how this would work with a Pearl, too.
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post #29 of 99
9/20/06 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILJG View Post

I read the Pearl will handle 1080p24, does the Ruby do so natively? Is anyone running their HD-A1 through a video processor and outputting 1080p24 to a Ruby? And is the judder "gone?" I'd really like to see how this would work with a Pearl, too.

I run 1080p48 to a Ruby (it won't take 1080p24) from both HD DVD and Blu-ray. There is still some judder that is natural with 24Hz just like with film in the theater (easier to see when the picture is bright), but the 3:2 pulldown judder seems to be gone. I can run "Lost" and "Boston Legal" from ABC-HD at 1080p48 also since the DVDO iScan VP50 can take film content in at 720p60 and pull the film frames out to get to 24Hz or 48Hz. It works well from what I've tested.

--Darin
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post #30 of 99
9/20/06 at 5:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I run 1080p48 to a Ruby (it won't take 1080p24) from both HD DVD and Blu-ray. There is still some judder that is natural with 24Hz just like with film in the theater (easier to see when the picture is bright), but the 3:2 pulldown judder seems to be gone. I can run "Lost" and "Boston Legal" from ABC-HD at 1080p48 also since the DVDO iScan VP50 can take film content in at 720p60 and pull the film frames out to get to 24Hz or 48Hz. It works well from what I've tested.

--Darin

Interesting. Is the DVDO iScan VP50 the only video processor you've used in the middle (inbetween the HD-DVD player/Blu-Ray player and the Ruby)? I've heard very good things about it. Was wondering about others, too, if anyone else has experiences running their HD-DVD/BD players through a scaler/video processor.

I guess it makes sense that the Pearl will handle 1080p24 natively, since it's newer.

Thanks for that input.

I know I'm asking a lot, but if anyone has a setup like this, and I provide exact times in movies (The Last Samurai, Serenity, U571 especially), could someone maybe check to see if this intermediate processing gets rid of the judder at these times in the films? I've noticed spots where the judder is horrible, and the Cinemotion's 3:2 pulldown smooths it considerably, but it's still noticeable.
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