AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › The Official Sony VPL-VW50 (Pearl) Calibration/Tweak Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Official Sony VPL-VW50 (Pearl) Calibration/Tweak Thread - Page 8

post #211 of 615
10/16/06 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciotime View Post

Will the pearl work with a 106" matte white 1.0 gain screen? Room will be dark with no problems re ambient light.

To me it looks works fine in low lamp mode, but I didn't calibrated my Pearl yet.
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #212 of 615
10/16/06 at 12:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercer View Post

Has anyone tried using this projector in a constant 2.35:1 aspect ratio setup? I was wondering wether I need an externel scaler/video processor to use my Prismasonic lense with the Pearl.. Anyone know if it's possible to "zoom" in on the picture material on a 2.35 movie?

The Pearl can not strech a 2:35 to fit a 1:78, so you will still need a external scaler

-SOWK
Reply
Reply
post #213 of 615
10/16/06 at 5:58pm
I have about 20 hours on my Pearl now. Overall I am very pleased with it. I watched a 1080 source of SW Episode III... freaking beautiful. The only complaint that I have is with the level of shadow detail. I have to turn the brightness up really high (around 68 with a contrast of 80) to get decent shadow detail, which washes out the picture. Anybody else noticed this?

I am not super picky about black level and shadow detail, but in some dark or dimly lit scenes it is extremely apparent. I find I am straining to make out shapes because they all blend together. Last night I was watching Without a Trace on CBS HD and some of the interrogation scenes peoples suits just blended in with the walls.

I am using a 110" Firehawk screen. The projector is ceiling mounted 14' from the screen. My seating position is directly beneath the projector. It is directly connected via HDMI cable to my HTPC and Directv HD200 satallite receiver. I used DVE to calibrate it. I am using Cinema Mode.
Reply
Reply
post #214 of 615
10/16/06 at 6:12pm
Have you tried the various gamma settings? That might raise the visibility of shadow detail, without needing to raise brightness that much. Make sure, too, that you don't have the enhanced black level on, which will do what you describe.
Reply
Reply
post #215 of 615
10/16/06 at 8:39pm
Gamma1 and Gamma2 are very useful for shadow detail, but the problem is that it washes out some of the colors in the areas of the image that are being boosted and gives the image a somewhat artificial feeling. For example, tonight I watched "A History of Violence," mostly in Gamma1. In the theater, I remember the inside of the brother's mansion having a warm glow, with rich wood tones. This is also how it looked with gamma off. In Gamma1 and Gamma2, it looked like the interior was being lit by cold florescent lights instead of warm incandescents. It is not a trade-off that I am fond of.

Strangely, switching to "high" bulb provides more lumens, but doesn't really improve the shadow detail situation either.

I too have noticed the effect of poor shadow detail now that the bulb has broken in a bit (about 80 hours), but it's only on certain content, and I think the key is finding the right settings. I decided a still like gamma off on most stuff, and I bumped my brightness up to 55. As the bulb dims, the blacks get blacker, and the brightness can afford to be bumped up.

Thus far, my experience tells me that you have to make a choice between shadow detail and deep blacks with this projector.
Reply
Reply
post #216 of 615
10/16/06 at 8:49pm
If the Pearl video processing is anything like the HS 51 & 51A, there might be a significant benefit from calibration done with Gamma 2 turned on.

Doing this might help smooth out the gamma curve at the top/bottom ends while smoothing out the gryascale response at the same time.

I found it only required solid tracking down to 30 IRE to achieve the desired result on both the 51 & 51A, although the 51A was an inherently better rig from beginning to end of the calibration process. I assume the Pearl would be an even friendlier projector in this regard.

It's was also benefitital to calibrate with the lamp in HIGH, so I calibrated for 6500/7500/9300 in HIGH lamp mode. I ended up keeping the 7500/9300 settings for watching in high lamp mode, for sports and for the kids when watching animated movies during the day.
Reply
Reply
post #217 of 615
10/17/06 at 7:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

If the Pearl video processing is anything like the HS 51 & 51A, there might be a significant benefit from calibration done with Gamma 2 turned on.

Doing this might help smooth out the gamma curve at the top/bottom ends while smoothing out the gryascale response at the same time.

I found it only required solid tracking down to 30 IRE to achieve the desired result on both the 51 & 51A, although the 51A was an inherently better rig from beginning to end of the calibration process. I assume the Pearl would be an even friendlier projector in this regard.

It's was also benefitital to calibrate with the lamp in HIGH, so I calibrated for 6500/7500/9300 in HIGH lamp mode. I ended up keeping the 7500/9300 settings for watching in high lamp mode, for sports and for the kids when watching animated movies during the day.

Without instrumentation, how would you recommend that a person "calibrate" for gamma2? It this simply a matter of messing with the RGB gain/bias controls until it approximates the picture provided with gamma turned off? Is this even possible?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Reply
Reply
post #218 of 615
10/17/06 at 1:31pm
A few comments about uniformity adjustments (what Sony calls "3D Gamma")...

1) do not make any adjustments in the center of the screen. You should find that Sony has left the center at zero. You should too.

2) I know it's tempting to make adjustments while displaying a white field. I would suggest not doing this. Instead use a light meter at the screen and adjust 1 color at a time. Use white to determine where you need to work, then make adjustments in each primary color.

3) before you start you need to know where the zones are, and what the signal level is that is being affected by a given level of adjustment. If the VW50 is like the VW100 (I have one here but I haven't had time to check yet) then the levels for red, green, and blue are not necessarily the same! Unfortunately Sony still insists on having Bias and Gain adjustments, both at the service level and user level. These will affect where the "3D Gamma" data operates! I start by setting Bias and Gain to the same values for all 3 colors...

The best way to determine the signal level for a particular adjustment level is to "spike" a few zones (set them to +50 or - 50) and then adjust the input signal until you find the point of maximum change. You must do this for each of the shading levels, for each color. Once you have determined these levels do not change inputs.

Sound complicated? Maybe one of these days Sony will figure out that they could simplify the signal path and actually get a better picture...

When you get all done and you want to keep it, don't forget to SAVE it!

It's a *LOT* easier when you can back up and restore the data.

William
Reply
Reply
post #219 of 615
10/17/06 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

Thus far, my experience tells me that you have to make a choice between shadow detail and deep blacks with this projector.

Or install better gamma curves.

The projector has an internal "master" gamma curve as well. The "user" gamma data is combined with the factory data.

William
Reply
Reply
post #220 of 615
10/17/06 at 1:59pm
Thanks for the good advice. I'd like to add a few observations.

1) My projector came with just as many factory uniformity adjustments to the center of the screen as to the edges. Green was not adjusted anywhere, however. The magnitude of the changes increased as the IRE level increased. I started at the middle, because that where I had the worst problems. I am now working my way outwards.

2) I used IRE fields, which I agree is not optimum, but it's what I had to work with. I'll try your suggestion. I tried looking through a color filter at the IRE field, but that just didn't work very well.

3) I spiked green, and used that to spot the interaction accross IREs. I didn't think it would be different for different colors. I just skipped IRE settings (i.e. 2, 4, 6, 8, then 1, 3, 5, 7) to minimize then interaction effects, and did this as a very iterative process, with the smallest adjustments possible at every step.

I'm sure this would be a lot easier if I had a s/w tool to help. :=)

I now have the image where it's watchable (it was really pretty bad before), although IRE fields still show uniformity issues. I'm thinking about renting a fancy minolta colorimter (if I can find one locally) and using that to more accurately adjust color uniformity. That said, measurements accross the image with my Sencore probe showed that it was much closer to D65 between sides to center after I did a grayscale calibration. I will use these suggestions when I work on fine tuning the image.

At this point, my image is now slightly plus green on the bottom, plus red on the top. The grayscale has some very slight reddish coloration at low IREs, which are restricted to portions of the image (i.e. are shading related). This is only easily visible with B&W content. Color content looks much better, although on closesups of faces, foreheads look a touch flushed, and chins look a bit sallow. Doing this by hand is a huge amount of work, and I really only recommend this if you have a really serious issue, and a lot of time. Doing this by hand will likely results in additional image artifacts that are difficult to correct. In my case, those artifacts are more minor than the original image flaw (super +green in the center).

If WM offers Pearl uniformity tuning, I will probably still send my projector him...


Quote:
Originally Posted by wm View Post

A few comments about uniformity adjustments (what Sony calls "3D Gamma")...

1) do not make any adjustments in the center of the screen. You should find that Sony has left the center at zero. You should too.

2) I know it's tempting to make adjustments while displaying a white field. I would suggest not doing this. Instead use a light meter at the screen and adjust 1 color at a time. Use white to determine where you need to work, then make adjustments in each primary color.

3) before you start you need to know where the zones are, and what the signal level is that is being affected by a given level of adjustment. If the VW50 is like the VW100 (I have one here but I haven't had time to check yet) then the levels for red, green, and blue are not necessarily the same! Unfortunately Sony still insists on having Bias and Gain adjustments, both at the service level and user level. These will affect where the "3D Gamma" data operates! I start by setting Bias and Gain to the same values for all 3 colors...

The best way to determine the signal level for a particular adjustment level is to "spike" a few zones (set them to +50 or - 50) and then adjust the input signal until you find the point of maximum change. You must do this for each of the shading levels, for each color. Once you have determined these levels do not change inputs.

Sound complicated? Maybe one of these days Sony will figure out that they could simplify the signal path and actually get a better picture...

When you get all done and you want to keep it, don't forget to SAVE it!

It's a *LOT* easier when you can back up and restore the data.

William
Reply
Reply
post #221 of 615
10/17/06 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

Without instrumentation, how would you recommend that a person "calibrate" for gamma2? It this simply a matter of messing with the RGB gain/bias controls until it approximates the picture provided with gamma turned off? Is this even possible?

Thanks for your thoughts.

I'm sorry Gremmy, I only commented because of the title of this thread. The title suggests we are talking about "calibration" which presumes folks are making adjustments with the equipment required to measure the exact changes taking place.

Your use of the word "messing" is appropriate, because that is eactly what is being done when the proper equipment is not being used when making adjustments.

I have no suggestions on how to tweak grayscale and gamma response without the proper equipment. I certainly did my share of messing with RGB gain/bias controls long before I owned my current calibration gear, but I also know these efforts would never lead to a proper calibration except by accident.

If I may, I would echo the warning offered by our friend "wm"... folks without the knowledge & equipment should be very careful when messing in the service/factory menu.

SOWK is advising folks to make an adjustment to a panel driver, which is an area a calibrator would not adjust during a calibration. The panel driver change was and continues to be bad advice.

I am guilty of sharing info on my post calibration settings for the 51 and 51A. I will agree in hindsight with "wm" this practice is right on the edge of dangerous in the hands of an owner who could make a serious mess of their projector settings.

May I humbly suggest service menu tweaks only be posted by those who have the proper equipment to verify the results of their adjustments.

I would go further and humbly suggest projector owners following this or any other "calibration/tweaking" thread only consider trying the service menu changes offered by folks with the proper equipment. Eventhen , you are doing so with the understanding of the associated risk.

I hope everyone takes these comments in the spirit intended.

The interaction of the RGB bias/gain and Gamma choices are very complex, and the slightest change in one area, can have dramatic effects in another. Often the calibration process requires a exhaustive range of tweaks from top to bottom of the luminance range, until a compromise set of adjustments serve to offer the best balance of performance across the grayscale/gamma curve. Making adjustments strictly on the low end of the curve may produce wonderful results in the lowend performance, only to have the middle and high end drift far from ideal performance.

"wm" also brings up an excellent point regarding additional gamma curve options, and I would expect he is able to offer just such an alternative for projectors he calibrates. Even though I have calibration gear, I look forward to sending "wm" one of my projectors someday, so he can work his magic in areas I would never dream of addressing. I'm just don't yet own a projector on his list.
Reply
Reply
post #222 of 615
10/17/06 at 2:55pm
Thread Starter 
Hey byte... can you PM me you number I want to talk to you about the calibration tools you have.

I am interested in see how much they cost, and where I can learn to use them properly.
Reply
Reply
post #223 of 615
10/17/06 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Hey byte... can you PM me you number I want to talk to you about the calibration tools you have.

I am interested in see how much they cost, and where I can learn to use them properly.

You might visit the calibration forum on AVS

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=139

They have ongoing discussions of a wide range of tools, techniques and how to get started.

I own the Progressive Labs CA-6X, but there a number of alternative packages, some costing less, some more. I run the CA-6X on my eMachines PC, but look forward to trying to use under BootCamp on one of my Intel Macs.
Reply
Reply
post #224 of 615
10/17/06 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

I'm sorry Gremmy, I only commented because of the title of this thread. The title suggests we are talking about "calibration" which presumes folks are making adjustments with the equipment required to measure the exact changes taking place.

Your use of the word "messing" is appropriate, because that is eactly what is being done when the proper equipment is not being used when making adjustments.

I have no suggestions on how to tweak grayscale and gamma response without the proper equipment. I certainly did my share of messing with RGB gain/bias controls long before I owned my current calibration gear, but I also know these efforts would never lead to a proper calibration except by accident.

If I may, I would echo the warning offered by our friend "wm"... folks without the knowledge & equipment should be very careful when messing in the service/factory menu.

SOWK is advising folks to make an adjustment to a panel driver, which is an area a calibrator would not adjust during a calibration. The panel driver change was and continues to be bad advice.

I am guilty of sharing info on my post calibration settings for the 51 and 51A. I will agree in hindsight with "wm" this practice is right on the edge of dangerous in the hands of an owner who could make a serious mess of their projector settings.

May I humbly suggest service menu tweaks only be posted by those who have the proper equipment to verify the results of their adjustments.

I would go further and humbly suggest projector owners following this or any other "calibration/tweaking" thread only consider trying the service menu changes offered by folks with the proper equipment. Eventhen , you are doing so with the understanding of the associated risk.

I hope everyone takes these comments in the spirit intended.

The interaction of the RGB bias/gain and Gamma choices are very complex, and the slightest change in one area, can have dramatic effects in another. Often the calibration process requires a exhaustive range of tweaks from top to bottom of the luminance range, until a compromise set of adjustments serve to offer the best balance of performance across the grayscale/gamma curve. Making adjustments strictly on the low end of the curve may produce wonderful results in the lowend performance, only to have the middle and high end drift far from ideal performance.

"wm" also brings up an excellent point regarding additional gamma curve options, and I would expect he is able to offer just such an alternative for projectors he calibrates. Even though I have calibration gear, I look forward to sending "wm" one of my projectors someday, so he can work his magic in areas I would never dream of addressing. I'm just don't yet own a projector on his list.

Byte, just so you know, the RGB gain/bias do not require an access to the service menu (they are available to all via the normal user menu), and they are very easily reset to the defaults, no memory required. So far as I know, I'm not going to destroy my projecter by tinkering around with the RGB gain/bias in the user menu, since all I have to do is reset everything to zero to return to the factory default.

So tinkering is likely what I'll do, unless someone really thinks I can ruin the projector like this.
Reply
Reply
post #225 of 615
10/17/06 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

If WM offers Pearl uniformity tuning, I will probably still send my projector him...

At CEDIA WM's Meridian Faroudja D-ILA1080MF1 Projector put out a white field that was just stunningly uniform. (The colors were gorgeous and the most natural, IMO, of all the pjs I saw there.)

Dan
Reply
Reply
post #226 of 615
10/17/06 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by drapp1952 View Post

At CEDIA WM's Meridian Faroudja D-ILA1080MF1 Projector put out a white field that was just stunningly uniform. (The colors were gorgeous and the most natural, IMO, of all the pjs I saw there.)

Dan

I read the same thing in WSR. :=)

I believe it. Nailing your grayscale, proper color decoding, and good uniformity are hugely important for a great looking image.

The only reason I wouldn't do this are if I magically fixed everything, or received a replacement that is perfect.
Reply
Reply
post #227 of 615
10/18/06 at 9:45am
First, let me say I love the Pearl. Jason Turk was here last weekend and installed my system. (Thanks Jason! First class job)
After everything was tweaked I was jawdropped amazed by the picture.
BUT, Clouds have a pink hue, in fact I see this pink hue way too much. Last night I watched several programs and it is getting annoying. Color uniformity? I guess this is what it is. I want to fix it. Is this something that I am going to have to get used to?
William, I am interested in your services. what are the odds of getting this fixed?
Reply
Reply
post #228 of 615
10/18/06 at 9:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by westh2o View Post

First, let me say I love the Pearl. Jason Turk was here last weekend and installed my system. (Thanks Jason! First class job)
After everything was tweaked I was jawdropped amazed by the picture.
BUT, Clouds have a pink hue, in fact I see this pink hue way too much. Last night I watched several programs and it is getting annoying. Color uniformity? I guess this is what it is. I want to fix it. Is this something that I am going to have to get used to?
William, I am interested in your services. what are the odds of getting this fixed?

When you say that clouds are pink, do you mean that whites across the entire screen have a pinkish hue? If so, this is not a uniformity problem, but rather a case of having a bit too much red in your whites, and you can probably fix it by tinkering with the RGB gain/bias controls in the normal user menu.

If, on the other hand, whites have a pronounced pinkish hue in only one specific area of the screen (the top middle, for example) and elsewhere they are green or nuetral, then yes, you have a uniformity issue. If it is severe, like sage's, you might be able to tweak it out (very carefully) using the 3D gamma tables in the service menu, but proceed with extreme caution.

Sky shots are a tricky place to evaluate uniformity issues. Just look at the sky in real life -- various shades of blue, white, pink, and gray are all over the typical sky shot. And sometimes, clouds really are pink.

If you've got some full-field IRE screens, you might want to run through these to see if the uniformity issue is a real problem on your Pearl.
Reply
Reply
post #229 of 615
10/18/06 at 12:14pm
The outlines of figures tend to have the pinkish hue especially if the actor is waring a white coat the shadow detail has the pink hue.
The clouds top outline have the pink hue...
Tried to turn down color but once you get rid of the pinkish hue the rest of the colors wash out.
Reply
Reply
post #230 of 615
10/18/06 at 12:37pm
Could the problem westh2o is having be due to convergence issues?
Reply
Reply
post #231 of 615
10/18/06 at 12:44pm
I think it's very hard to say without looking at reference images on that display.
Reply
Reply
post #232 of 615
10/18/06 at 12:52pm
How long has the Pearl been shipping now? Has QA been made aware of some of these issues? Are current shipments better?

Mine is probably shipping any day or has already and when I get it I would like it to be 100% so I dont have to take it down, box it up, send it back, wait some more, have a drink, take a sh..... well you get the idea...
Reply
Reply
post #233 of 615
10/18/06 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by westh2o View Post

First, let me say I love the Pearl. Jason Turk was here last weekend and installed my system. (Thanks Jason! First class job)
After everything was tweaked I was jawdropped amazed by the picture.
BUT, Clouds have a pink hue, in fact I see this pink hue way too much. Last night I watched several programs and it is getting annoying. Color uniformity? I guess this is what it is. I want to fix it. Is this something that I am going to have to get used to?
William, I am interested in your services. what are the odds of getting this fixed?

If Jason is available to visit with you again, you might consider having him look at your Pearl and help you determine what needs to be done.

If the pickish tone is relatively uniform acroos the screen, you need a grayscale calibration, which would allow for a uniform color temp through out the luminance range.

If the pinkish tone is oriented to only a portion of the screen, this a matter of gamma uniformity and the issue gremmy and others have been talking about.

Again, if jason is available to visit ( I assume it wasn't a road trip for him) he could help you nail down the issue.
Reply
Reply
post #234 of 615
10/18/06 at 1:36pm
Convergence was perfect.
Reply
Reply
post #235 of 615
10/18/06 at 2:21pm
If you calibrate a projector like the Pearl in "low" bulb mode, will it still be calibrated if you switch to "high" mode?

The reason I ask is that I'll have a movable HE panamorph lens in the beam for 2.35:1 CIH viewing. Most viewing (say, 70%) will be of 1.78"1 or 1.33:1 content using low mode, but for movies, because the panamorph decreases brightness by 30%, I intend to increase this to high. This should keep the overall brightness amout the same when I use the lens. Otherwise, if I keep it in High mode all the time, the 1.79 and 1.33 material will be overly bright (plus bulb life will be reduced).

Will doing this throw off the grey-scale tracking or introduce other picture quality issue?

Thanks,
Mark
Reply
Reply
post #236 of 615
10/18/06 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by westh2o View Post

Convergence was perfect.

Perfect convergence. Holy cow, we have a winner!

Seriously though, how did you verify perfect convergence?
Reply
Reply
post #237 of 615
10/18/06 at 3:51pm
That is what Jason said when he calibrated it.
Reply
Reply
post #238 of 615
10/18/06 at 3:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by westh2o View Post

That is what Jason said when he calibrated it.

Well, that's good news, since convergence cannot be fixed by any readily available means that I am aware of.

Color uniformity, on the other hand, can be fixed. We all anxiously await William Phelps and his magical Pearl shading tool.
Reply
Reply
post #239 of 615
10/18/06 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frabman View Post

If you calibrate a projector like the Pearl in "low" bulb mode, will it still be calibrated if you switch to "high" mode?

Usually, the answer is NO. The lamp typically exhibits a color temp shift in HIGH lamp mode.

Keep in mind, you might still have a flat grayscale response, with the color temp shift uniform across the grayscale.

It's possible you might not be able to see the shift.

The 51A UHP lamp shifted slightly to BLUE in HIGH lamp mode and needed 4 extra clicks of RED gain & 5 extra clicks of GREEN gain and (-1) click of GREEN bias.

It's interesting to note, in normal lamp mode, I dialed in RED right on the edge of it's limits at 100 IRE. You would think I would have run out of RED in HIGH lamp mode, but extra RED came from somewhere. Come to think of it, I might have been able to push RED a little harder thus getting some extra lumens, but I only adjusted RED & GREEN enough to restore the color temp.
Reply
Reply
post #240 of 615
10/19/06 at 4:24am
After 100hrs I did an initial calibration run using Custom 2 as a base. I also found that lots of red is available. I had to push green and blue by reasonable amounts to get back from very warm to 65k. I did not try to fool with bias yet. Picture has some real punch now. It's always amazing to me how the eye/brain can accept any color response as "ok" until you measure and see how far off you were....

"low" measures about 4k with heavy red.

My convergence is "perfect" on the left 3/4 of the screen with about 1/2 to 1 pixel off in red on the right 1/4 of the screen only in the horizontal. I can't see any evidence of it in real material. I don't have any green blobs or such, the full fields look uniform.
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › The Official Sony VPL-VW50 (Pearl) Calibration/Tweak Thread