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The Official Sony VPL-VW50 (Pearl) Calibration/Tweak Thread - Page 3

post #61 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post



For color uniformity problems with slight green shift

You can minimize by accessing

Panel Driver
Green = 85

SOWK, are you sure this is the right way to fix color continuity issues that are restricted to a certain region of the screen? Or does this setting control the entire panel? I would think there would be a 3d gamma setting that would allow you to manipulate difference screen regions, as others have reported on the SXRD RPTVs.
post #62 of 615
Thread Starter 
Might not be the right way, but it does help. It is for the entire panel
post #63 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Might not be the right way, but it does help. It is for the entire panel

I wonder if it is beyond the abilities of the average A/V tweaker to figure out how to calibrate the 3D gamma without hosing up the projector. If this is do-able by the average person, maybe someone will eventually be able to post instructions. The ISF guys know how to do it, but they're not talking.
post #64 of 615
Thread Starter 
Were can i go to learn ISF certification in WI? how much is it to learn?
post #65 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Were can i go to learn ISF certification in WI? how much is it to learn?

You can go here:
http://www.imagingscience.com/

To find out dates and locations of the seminars/classes. You would have to call to find out pricing. Don't know if they are going to be in/around Wisconsin.
Once you take the class, then you must take the certification test. After that it's practice, practice, and more practice. It's an art form. Most of the good ISF calibration guys have been at it for several years.
Good luck.
post #66 of 615
Quote:


originally posted by gremmy:
I wonder if it is beyond the abilities of the average A/V tweaker to figure out how to calibrate the 3D gamma without hosing up the projector. If this is do-able by the average person, maybe someone will eventually be able to post instructions. The ISF guys know how to do it, but they're not talking.

If you are referring to the shading adjustments, I doubt that many (if any) ISF guys deal with this because it is so time consuming. If someone knows of one who does, please post. Also: other than William's camera and software, (and whatever equipment Sony has at the factory) I don't think there is a way to use intruments or automate the process. It all must be done by eye, and a very active thumb on the remote.

It can be done by the average Joe. I have done it myself (HS 51) for what I would estimate as a 20% improvement in uniformity. However, it takes hours. I would guess five hours for each "level" you need to adjust. Although there are 12 "levels", you should leave three of them untouched. It would be prohibitively expensive to pay an ISF tech to do this type of tedious labor.

Many of us are interested in this issue regarding the Pearl. Please enlighten us with any additional information.

Pip
post #67 of 615
I have been going crazy with searches and for the life of me I can't find what the maximum vertical lens shift is of the Pearl. Can anyone post a quick answer? Thanks.
I know it's in here somewhere but haven't found it yet.
post #68 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherby View Post

I have been going crazy with searches and for the life of me I can't find what the maximum vertical lens shift is of the Pearl. Can anyone post a quick answer? Thanks.
I know it's in here somewhere but haven't found it yet.


65% of screen height from image centre. Calc is 8.0876*diag screen size+91=max vertical shift (mm)

AVI
post #69 of 615
Thanks. With a 123" diagonal screen which is 60" high does that mean I could have the projector 19.5" from the top of the screen? I'm not sure I understood your formula "Calc is 8.0876*diag screen size + 91?
Thanks.
post #70 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

I wonder if it is beyond the abilities of the average A/V tweaker to figure out how to calibrate the 3D gamma without hosing up the projector. If this is do-able by the average person, maybe someone will eventually be able to post instructions. The ISF guys know how to do it, but they're not talking.

Here's link by Steve Smallcombe that describes how this feature worked for the Sony VPL-VW10HT, which had 28 fields. I assume that the description will apply to the Pearl, except maybe for the number of fields:

http://home.pacbell.net/steve367/gamma.html

Just for the sake of easy reference, I'll again insert that Cine4home.de Ruby review translated paragraph. Maybe someone who speaks German can provide a more comprehensible translation:

Note: In each case the user and/or specialist dealer has the possibility of adjusting possible Shading. In the service menu Sony integrated a special Shading menu: In 11 different gray tones separately the RGB color distribution can be adjusted in each case, this is altogether over 3000(!! in approximately 275 different pixels) Driving points. A zielkreuz marks the range which can be stopped. Obviously this menu for an automatic work calibration is conceived, but should change the Shading after 1000 or more operation hours, then it can be after-corrected with much patience.

Someone who knows otherwise please correct me or elaborate about the following. An enthusiast could use a sensor and software (see the calibration forum) to measure the affected fields' x,y,Y data, through the gamma 3D menu adjust RGB, one by one field by field so that each was as close as possible to D65 x=.313 and y=.329 and a reference Y (luminance). You would simply measure each affected fields' x,y,Y through 11 gray steps and adjust each for best match with an adjacent and reference field. Let's say 15 fields have some kind of color uniformity problem. You'd have 11 x 15 RGB adjustments for ideal RGB gamma tracking for each field. An ISF calibrator might be consulted, but it might be like asking him to do 165 calibrations, and more if there were interactions between adjacent fields requiring adjacent touchup adjustments. Maybe a calibrator would have speedier means of doing all this, but you'd better ask ahead of time.

It's been said that wm could offer software for a "prosumer" to help shading, but I do not know if he's even interested or actually able to do so with the Pearl. Such software might interface directly with the Pearl's factory adjustment menu to make the adjustment process a little easier than the enthusiast's procedure.

Dan
post #71 of 615
I don't know how much of this will translate to the Pearl, but I have a few tips that work well on the Ruby:

1. Set brightness and contrast at the default values. Sony selects values that work well with the DI in order to provide maximum video dynamic range. Lowering contrast and/or raising brightness will result in lower on/off CR.
2. Adjust brightness and contrast at the source, not at the projector! This is important in order to minimize any DI artifacts. With the new DI algorithms, this may not be true any longer, but I would still follow that rule in order to keep the video dynamic range maximized.
3. Sony's primaries are over saturated by default, but they look best that way! If you reduce the main color control, you can pull in all three primaries at the same time, but the colors will look drab and lifeless. Sony's default values look much better, IMHO.
4. If you want to change the hue or saturation of a single primary or secondary, use the RCP to gain individual control. The RCP is best used in conjunction with a sensor and software, but if you have an obvious problem (like greenish yellows, for example), you can probably correct it pretty well by eye.
5. The OOB colors do not look very accurate - at first (reddish skin tones, for example). Once the lamp has settled in with about 80 to 100 hours, the colors will look a LOT better, even without any calibration. Also, this is when the high CR of the unit will become obvious.

Let me remind you that these comments are for the Ruby and may not pertain to the Pearl - I really don't know as I don't own one, but after talking with Jason and reading his test results, the Pearl seems to behave in much the same fashion.

If Jason is willing to share his settings, I would use them! Even though lamps need to be calibrated individually, there is going to be a lot of color shifting taking place in the first several hundred hours, and Jason's settings, while they may not be perfect on YOUR projector, should at least provide you with a good starting point.
post #72 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I don't know how much of this will translate to the Pearl, but I have a few tips that work well on the Ruby:

1. Set brightness and contrast at the default values. Sony selects values that work well with the DI in order to provide maximum video dynamic range. Lowering contrast and/or raising brightness will result in lower on/off CR.
2. Adjust brightness and contrast at the source, not at the projector! This is important in order to minimize any DI artifacts. With the new DI algorithms, this may not be true any longer, but I would still follow that rule in order to keep the video dynamic range maximized.
3. Sony's primaries are over saturated by default, but they look best that way! If you reduce the main color control, you can pull in all three primaries at the same time, but the colors will look drab and lifeless. Sony's default values look much better, IMHO.
4. If you want to change the hue or saturation of a single primary or secondary, use the RCP to gain individual control. The RCP is best used in conjunction with a sensor and software, but if you have an obvious problem (like greenish yellows, for example), you can probably correct it pretty well by eye.
5. The OOB colors do not look very accurate - at first (reddish skin tones, for example). Once the lamp has settled in with about 80 to 100 hours, the colors will look a LOT better, even without any calibration. Also, this is when the high CR of the unit will become obvious.

Let me remind you that these comments are for the Ruby and may not pertain to the Pearl - I really don't know as I don't own one, but after talking with Jason and reading his test results, the Pearl seems to behave in much the same fashion.

If Jason is willing to share his settings, I would use them! Even though lamps need to be calibrated individually, there is going to be a lot of color shifting taking place in the first several hundred hours, and Jason's settings, while they may not be perfect on YOUR projector, should at least provide you with a good starting point.

Have you noticed that some shades of red are leaning a little bit too much toward magenta? I personally have noticed this on all of the SXRD RPTVs, and now on the Pearl. I haven't done enough critical viewing of the Ruby to say whether or not the issue was there as well. But the problem is this: Fire Engine Red clearly has just a shade too much blue in it. Take a look at the Red Fire truck that's hanging off the bridge in an HD recording of the Fantastic Four and you'll see what I mean. The effect is also visible in the Porche that the Human Torch is driving. I started futzing around with the RCP trying to fix it, and I never really did. Does anyone have a fix for this? The RCP controls are a bit scary to me because there are no "numbers" so I cannot write down the default values.

I have only noticed this issue on HD content, so it may be related to the HD color space on this projector.
post #73 of 615
Bob, thanks for those key points based on your experience with the Ruby. I am going to use them with the Pearl. I think you're right and that they'll generally apply.

Dan
post #74 of 615
Quote:


Have you noticed that some shades of red are leaning a little bit too much toward magenta?

You mean going by memory? My Ruby has long been calibrated several times now and the colors are right on the money. As far as I remember, the reds were a bit on the orangey side before calibration and skin tones looked as if everyone had a sunburn. Chances are that with a different lamp chemistry the amount and type of color inaccuracy will be different, but I wouldn't even concern myself with it until there were about 80 to 100 hours on the lamp.
post #75 of 615
Quote:


originally posted by drapp1952:
Someone who knows otherwise please correct me or elaborate about the following. An enthusiast could use a sensor and software (see the calibration forum) to measure the affected fields' x,y,Y data, through the gamma 3D menu adjust RGB, one by one field by field so that each was as close as possible to D65 x=.313 and y=.329 and a reference Y (luminance). You would simply measure each affected fields' x,y,Y through 11 gray steps and adjust each for best match with an adjacent and reference field. Let's say 15 fields have some kind of color uniformity problem. You'd have 11 x 15 RGB adjustments for ideal RGB gamma tracking for each field. An ISF calibrator might be consulted, but it might be like asking him to do 165 calibrations, and more if there were interactions between adjacent fields requiring adjacent touchup adjustments. Maybe a calibrator would have speedier means of doing all this, but you'd better ask ahead of time.

In my experience, shading problems rarely occur in one place on the screen throughout all the IRE levels. Shading non-uniformity can vary greatly across different level gray fields - to the point of being inverse at certain levels. It is also my experience that if a given "level" has a shading issue, it will require adjustment of arroximately one third of the 273 adjustable points on that "level". You are correct that the points adjacent in space (above, below, and to the sides) as well as adjacent in "level" (darker and lighter) are affected and usually need to be adjusted also.

In theory you are correct. Your method of placing a sensor in all of these problem spots can be done, but it will take a very dedicated owner enthusiast to devote this amount of time to a projector. Before one even begins to adjust anything, one must enter the original data for 7,371 points. (9 levels x 273 places x RGB). As someone who has done this by eye, and done simple grayscale calibrations using a sensor, I can't imagine the amount of work involved in using a single point sensor to do this.

I hope Sony gets this right on the Pearl, but their track record with LCDs is inexcusably poor. I have seen well over a dozen Sony LCDs beginning with the 10HT, through the HS51 and they all have had some degree of very obvious shading problems. On all of the units I have seen, and from the reports on this forum, all the units seem to have the shading problems in the same place on the screen - indicating faulty equipment or procedures at the Sony factory. I have seen five Yamaha LCDs - none of which had any problems. If William can do this right at his place, and Yamaha can get it right at the factory, there is no good reason for Sony to consistently turn out unit after unit with problems in the same places.

I'm not a Sony basher. I have owned the 10HT, and the HS51. I hope to buy a resonably well shaded Pearl. But from a black and white film lover, Sony deserves some bashing on this issue.

Pip
post #76 of 615
After reading the "Gremmy's Pearl Review" thread, I am much more hopeful about the color uniformity of the Pearl.

Thanks for the great review gremmy!

Pip
post #77 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pip View Post

After reading the "Gremmy's Pearl Review" thread, I am much more hopeful about the color uniformity of the Pearl.

Thanks for the great review gremmy!

Pip

I just got done watching North Country on HBO-HD, and the whole time I was amazed at the nearly perfect shading. There are lots of drab gray landscape shots -- perfectly uniform. And shots of the white ice rink -- perfectly uniform. And shots of that gray sky with white clouds, and of snowy fields -- all perfectly uniform.

The only way to even begin to see the very slight shading imperfection on this unit is to put in a black and white movie and deliberately spend all your time looking for it. It's that good.
post #78 of 615
Many times it's hard to tell if any projector is even worth turning on around here. AVS members love to nitpick everything.

I can assure you ever projector talked about in this forum is awesome
post #79 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherby View Post

Thanks. With a 123" diagonal screen which is 60" high does that mean I could have the projector 19.5" from the top of the screen? I'm not sure I understood your formula "Calc is 8.0876*diag screen size + 91?
Thanks.


With a 123" diag screen the approx max vertical shift from lens centre to the centre line of the projected image is 42". The calc is from the Ruby manual and the Pearl has similar characteristics. This means you have max 42" of up or down (if the Pearl is mounted upside down) movement from the centre of the projected image and centre of the lens.

Dazzer
post #80 of 615
Pip
I expect that lcds, the projectors you have had, are more shading affected than sxrd. I am not saying the latter does not have issues. Member wm at avsforum has a shading tool for Ruby. Perfection is possible but it will cost you some money. If this tool will be ported to be used with Pearl is not known.
post #81 of 615
Thanks Dazzer. Originaly I did not notice the result of the calculation is in mm. That's what didn't make sense...
post #82 of 615
Hi guys, need some tweaking help.

just got my new pearl set-up,
using a 110" firehawk with ceiling mount, but had to be near max throw.
At night, picture is fantastic. Cant wait to get HD-DVD.

But need some more light for daytime viewing as I dont want to make the room pitch black.
The picture gets faded during the day.

Is there any good tweaks to increase briteness. Any chance a different bulb will ever be able to be placed?

Thanks in advance.
post #83 of 615
gremmy:

Thanks very much for your observations.

Pip
post #84 of 615
freddorn

I have a 106" firehawk also.

You are going to have get rid of some of the ambient light. Not necessarily all of it. Just try to get direct light going onto the screen. Lights that are close, windows and such. It will take a big part of your problem out.

Of course curtains would totally take care of the problem.
post #85 of 615
Thread Starter 
I just want to say lets not turn this into a Screen thread, again. Every other Pearl Thread is one already!
post #86 of 615
Thread Starter 
I want to keep my first post updated with all the Useful Tweaks or Calibrations, anyone have some I should post?
post #87 of 615
Hey guys I have had my pearl hooked up via component to my old trusty Denon 3800 dvd player set to 480p. I looks amazing. I recently hooked up a Toshiba HDA1 to the HDMI input. HD dvd's look absolutely unbelievable. Although im kinda torn on the SD dvd's. It appears that the denon via component connection seem to have a more snappy picture. Am i doing something wrong? Does the Toshiba not have as good an image via upconverting then the 4-5 year old denon? I was thinking about trying the Toshiba via component to see if maybe its an HDMI thing. I am not even sure that the picture is sharper via the HDMI connection. They are really close I can tell you. Anyone with a similar experience?
post #88 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

I want to keep my first post updated with all the Useful Tweaks or Calibrations, anyone have some I should post?

I've been scouring the other threads looking for some Pearl picture setting that someone posted post-calibration, and I cannot find them anywhere. 2 bucks and a biscuit to the first person who finds that post.

I also wonder if we could use some explanation of some of the PQ adjustments:
1) Gain
2) Bias
3) Whether or not it matters which custom-color template (User1, User2, User3) you start with (since all start of with gain/bias at zero but look *very* different).


And I for one am trying to figure out how to turn off the Pearl's whacky edge enhancement, which I believe is in the service menu somewhere. I'm getting some double outlining - pretty sure this can be disabled.
post #89 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

And I for one am trying to figure out how to turn off the Pearl's whacky edge enhancement, which I believe is in the service menu somewhere. I'm getting some double outlining - pretty sure this can be disabled.

I haven't seen this? What input using what as a source? Running test patterns into the PEARL from a 1080i source (HD-DVD home burned test patterns input from a Toshiba HD-DVD via HDMI) and setting sharpness to zero, I see no outlining at all.
post #90 of 615
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

I've been scouring the other threads looking for some Pearl picture setting that someone posted post-calibration, and I cannot find them anywhere. 2 bucks and a biscuit to the first person who finds that post.

I also wonder if we could use some explanation of some of the PQ adjustments:
1) Gain
2) Bias
3) Whether or not it matters which custom-color template (User1, User2, User3) you start with (since all start of with gain/bias at zero but look *very* different).


And I for one am trying to figure out how to turn off the Pearl's whacky edge enhancement, which I believe is in the service menu somewhere. I'm getting some double outlining - pretty sure this can be disabled.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&page=13&pp=30
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