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Okay, finally got eveything calibrated...

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
Well, sort of. This was as close as I could get my PX60U (with upconverting SAMSUNG HD-950 to 1080i) without going too far into the service menu. I am basically trying to see how close I can get the display to "standard" with just the basic user settings. I posted my CalMan and Rader results as JPEG's in the zip file attached. There are 4 files. Check em' out and let me know what everybody thinks.

THANX!
post #2 of 17
You will want to back down on red brightness a notch or three, and maybe drop red contrast a point as well. If you set the wizard into hexadecimal mode, you should be able to get some more granular advice on what to change if you go into the service menu. Assuming the '60s are similar to the 8UKs. Hopefully it looks better, though!

Bill
post #3 of 17
Since you are venturing into the SM and seem to know what you are doing, I have a question. Is the dynamic contrast control (or whatever they call it these days) defeatable on the 60u?

Justin
post #4 of 17
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the advice Bill. The thing is, I was trying to test the theory that Panasonics are pretty close to D65 and 6500K out-of-the-box. I wanted to see how close one could get the display with just the standard user settings (not using the service menu). My question to you is, are these settings 'relatively' close to "standard", or atleast close without the service menu? I noticed a couple of good points (i.e. my D65 white point is almost dead on, as well as blue) and some bad points (i.e. my green point is substantially off). Are my gamma curves at a decent range? My temp. falls in at about 6000K, is that a noticable deviation from 6500K? Also, one last question, how do I measure D65 at all other points (i.e. 0-90%)? I'm interested in hearing your input.

Thanx!
post #5 of 17
If you have not yet touched RGB contrast/brightness settings, then this is really very good "out of the box, but post AVIA/DVE/Etc." performance (no big spikes in dE). If you have tweaked the individual primary controls, then you do still have a little way yet to go.

As for gamma, your plasma exhibits a pretty standard issue with a lot of displays. Too high of a gamma at the low end will tend to crush blacks, and too low of a gamma at the high end will crush whites a bit. Unfortunately, this seems to be pretty common -- perhaps as a by-product of trying to maximize on/off CR.

Bill
post #6 of 17
I owned a PV60H and been looking into the SM. Looks simple but able to do RGB contrast and brightness. One complain I hv is seems like Panasonic had remove the ability to adjust the overscan in the service menu 2 as I only have HPOS. You need all 4 controls such as HPOS, VPOS, HSIZE, VSIZE to do proper overscan adjustment.

Please note that the adjustment might be per input. There are Service Menu 1 and Service Menu 2.
post #7 of 17
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the feedback Bill. And yes, this is out-of-the-box by just modifying the user settings. I have not touched the RGB settings yet.

You mentioned that I should post AVIA/DVE/Etc. performance. Do you mean that I should do my measurements again with those, too? Or did you mean something else? I did all my measurements with GetGray, in case you're wondering

Also, just so I'm clear, what is "on/off CR". I realize that it means "on/off Contrast Ratio". But, what is it? What does it do? Is higher better? This is one point that I never fully understood.

Lastly, is their a noticable difference between 6000K and 6500K. I realize that, 'technically', at 6000K it will be more red or yellow. But in your experience, is this generally a noticable difference. And is D65 just 1 single point (white), or does D65 have to be achieved on all grayscale windows 0-100%?

I appreciate all of your feedback Bill! CalMan is the greatest tool ever!

THANX!

P.S. "rjyap" I, too, am very upset at Panasonic's decision to remove overscan adjustment from the service menu. I don't have any adjustments for overscan in mine, not even HPOS. So consider yourself lucky
post #8 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeCSS View Post

Thanks for the feedback Bill. And yes, this is out-of-the-box by just modifying the user settings. I have not touched the RGB settings yet.

You mentioned that I should post AVIA/DVE/Etc. performance. Do you mean that I should do my measurements again with those, too? Or did you mean something else? I did all my measurements with GetGray, in case you're wondering

No, nothing sinister! I was merely trying to distinguish "true" out of the box performance, from OOB plus some time with a calibration disc doing proper contrast, brightness, etc. changes.

Quote:


Also, just so I'm clear, what is "on/off CR". I realize that it means "on/off Contrast Ratio". But, what is it? What does it do? Is higher better? This is one point that I never fully understood.

On/off CR is the ratio of 100% white to 0% black luminance levels. It is one measure of how much "dynamic range" a display has.

Quote:


Lastly, is their a noticable difference between 6000K and 6500K. I realize that, 'technically', at 6000K it will be more red or yellow. But in your experience, is this generally a noticable difference. And is D65 just 1 single point (white), or does D65 have to be achieved on all grayscale windows 0-100%?

D65 is a single point on the xy map. You want all of your grayscale points to be on it, if possible. However, deviations from this are generally inevitable. The Panasonic plasmas, though, should be able to get within a couple of points of dE from D65 across the grayscale. One dE is considered to be a Just Noticeable Difference (though since superceded) for static images, and under 4 is a good target for moving images. Since most people use CalMAN where it calculates a corrected dE, you do want to minimize your dE as much as possible, since there is likely still to be gamma error that hinders overall color performance. However, THAT is a bit more advanced of a topic.

Bill
post #9 of 17
"On/off CR is the ratio of 100% white to 0% black luminance levels. It is one measure of how much "dynamic range" a display has."

Only if measured in that fashion with using Checkerboard pattern after Contrast and Black Level have been set using Pluge, and properly configuring the results.

If you use Full Fields or Window patterns, that is not representative of the display's actual Contrast Ratio.
post #10 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyotes View Post

Only if measured in that fashion with using Checkerboard pattern after Contrast and Black Level have been set using Pluge, and properly configuring the results.

You seem to be describing ANSI CR. On/Off is done either using fields or window patterns, and since it is not an endorsed standard, yes, there is quite a bit of variability in how it can be done (whatever makes the set measure the best). However, conceptually what I have described IS the test. The question is merely what you use for "white" and "black". ALL on/off CRs use a full white measurement and a full black measurement, or else it is not on/off. Perhaps you are thinking about some of the tests used for LCDs to measure response time? (gray to gray)

Or are you picking nits around peak versus reference white?

Bill
post #11 of 17
I just found out the SM is almost useless to calibrate PV60H. Reason is whenever I enable service menu, it will automatically switch to dynamic mode which the gamma is pretty screw (The gamma curve is crush on 80% and above) and there is no way for me to switch to either standard or cinema profile while in service menu.

Without accessing the service menu, I found out Cinema mode with Standard color temp is quite near to a flat greyscale and almost perfect gamma curve of 2.2. Standard color temp is still lacking blue (around 3-5%) while warm is lacking lot of green (around -15%).

If anyone had a way to switch profile or prevent switching to dynamic mode during service menu, please let me know. Thanks.
post #12 of 17
Thread Starter 
I think I get it Bill, but correct me if i'm wrong. So, what you're saying is, the dE is basically how many 'points' away from D65 I am. In other words, if my dE for 10% is 4, than I am essentially 4 'points' away from D65. If my dE for 90% is 7, than I am 7 'points' away from D65. Is this correct? Now, assuming this is true, then how come when I measure my primaries, the white point on the CIE chart is almost dead-on with 0.3125 and 0.329? But yet, my dE for 100% (which is also white?) is around 7-8. Hopefully you, which I'm sure you do, have an answer to this.

TIA!
post #13 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

You seem to be describing ANSI CR. On/Off is done either using fields or window patterns, and since it is not an endorsed standard, yes, there is quite a bit of variability in how it can be done (whatever makes the set measure the best). However, conceptually what I have described IS the test. The question is merely what you use for "white" and "black". ALL on/off CRs use a full white measurement and a full black measurement, or else it is not on/off. Perhaps you are thinking about some of the tests used for LCDs to measure response time? (gray to gray)

Or are you picking nits around peak versus reference white?

Bill

Contrast Ratio is a useless specification if not expressed in ANSI lumens. Any display (11,000 to 1, for example) will not perform in the spirit this forum wishes unless properly adjusted.
Most manufacturers will measure with the unit full on, and then put it in the box as their "Off" measurement.
Using such off the chart specifications as a barometer of purchase or performance is to enter a fool's paradise.
post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeCSS View Post

I think I get it Bill, but correct me if i'm wrong. So, what you're saying is, the dE is basically how many 'points' away from D65 I am. In other words, if my dE for 10% is 4, than I am essentially 4 'points' away from D65. If my dE for 90% is 7, than I am 7 'points' away from D65. Is this correct? Now, assuming this is true, then how come when I measure my primaries, the white point on the CIE chart is almost dead-on with 0.3125 and 0.329? But yet, my dE for 100% (which is also white?) is around 7-8. Hopefully you, which I'm sure you do, have an answer to this.

TIA!

The rain in Spain does fall mainly on the plain! You've pretty much got it. To your question, the answer is that dE scales with the quantity of light. Conceptually, the same absolute distance (Cartesian) from D65 on the xy plane will yield a higher dE at higher light levels than at lower light levels. In other words, the more light you have, the easier it is to see that the color is erroneous. Granted, the math is not quite as clean as this, but the logic follows. There is some additional nuance we can get into around decompositions of dE into dC and dL, but let's get through this bit first!

Bill
post #15 of 17
Thread Starter 
Thanks Bill. But what I don't understand is, if my dE is between 7-8 for 100% white, then how come on the CIE chart it shows my white point is almost exactly at D65?

Thanx for all the help!
post #16 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeCSS View Post

Thanks Bill. But what I don't understand is, if my dE is between 7-8 for 100% white, then how come on the CIE chart it shows my white point is almost exactly at D65?

Thanx for all the help!

I'd have to back through the math, but remember that white is your brightest point, so being a little bit off at the top end in x and y can lead to a much bigger level of color error. My guess is that this is what is driving you to have that spike. Of course, if you want to see something even more irritating, toggle the gamma correction on and off, then look at the dE across your grayscale. Since the 100% reading anchors the grayscale, it is hardest to eliminate gamma error from there.

Bill
post #17 of 17
Since this thread is related to Panasonic PX60U, I have a question: is it possible to select Gamma value from service menu directly, like say Pioneer has predefined values of 1.8, 2.0 and 2.2. If not, how Gamma is set up on this set?

Thinking on replacing my Pio on Panny because my TV keeps forgetting Gamma value, and I am not sure that Pioneer will release a patch. The TV does not even have an SD card slot, so even if Pioneer released a patch, someone should come to my place and connect via RS-232... Don't see this happening.
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