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Law & Order on NBC in HDTV - Page 2

post #31 of 160
1/3/08 at 7:13am
I enjoy it as well but the PQ was very dark and crappy for me last night and really made it a distraction.
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post #32 of 160
1/3/08 at 10:28am
Great start to a very old series that remains well done despite the almost annual remake of the lead characters. McCoy, as the DA, is interesting in that he is more active then any DA in recent years. I believe that the story lines that actually allow you to think and reflect back on the actual incidents the program is based account for the series long term tenure.
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post #33 of 160
1/3/08 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Closet Geek View Post

I enjoy it as well but the PQ was very dark and crappy for me last night and really made it a distraction.

agreed, it was a very grainy HD picture
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post #34 of 160
1/3/08 at 10:43am
I liked last night's episodes, too. I wasn't blown away by the PQ but it didn't turn me off, either. I agree that Sisto is a welcome addition as a detective, I liked him a lot as Brenda's creepy brother in Six Feet Under. I also like Linus Roache as an ADA. My grandson reminded me that Roache had played young Bruce Wayne's father in Batman Begins. Who knew?
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post #35 of 160
1/3/08 at 11:53am
I give them credit for coming up with some creative and unusual plot development and twists, with the problem being that the underlying plots themselves (assisted suicide, blackout) were the standard ripped-from-the-headline repeats that have been done for, oh, 18 seasons. Nice bit of location work too; they haven't done an inside-the-round-marble-courthouse scene for years to the best of my knowledge.

The PQ was mediocre but I'd watched some of the early season repeats in HD aired over NYE (hence the courthouse scene was more noticeable) and the film transfer was a lot worse, so didn't bother me as much. What did get me was the courtroom camera work in the first episode. Did anyone else notice how they were cutting off the top of Roache's head among other weirdness?
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post #36 of 160
1/3/08 at 12:15pm
These were great clever plots but the PQ on this show has got gotten ridiculous. This used to be a pretty sharp although dingy and sometimes grainy show. Now it's as soft as a DVD, the grain is very distracting in some scenes and anything that should be gray is pretty much black. It looks like they've switched to 16mm to save money.
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post #37 of 160
1/3/08 at 12:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by old64mb View Post

What did get me was the courtroom camera work in the first episode. Did anyone else notice how they were cutting off the top of Roache's head among other weirdness?

There was a lot of cutting off people's foreheads in that episode. There was nothing of interest at the bottom of the frame so along with the poor PQ, it made it look like they'd done a poor 16:9 crop from an old SD tape!
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post #38 of 160
1/3/08 at 5:12pm
I think we sometimes forget that one of the "staples" of Law & Order from the beginning was that they wanted to make the viewer feel like watching a documentary from someone following cops/d.a.'s around with a shoulder-cam.

So while I agree the PQ was below par for your average HD program.. I believe it is intentional since they want to still have us feel like we are watching Dateline or Cops or something instead of a regular drama program.
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post #39 of 160
1/3/08 at 11:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

So while I agree the PQ was below par for your average HD program.. I believe it is intentional since they want to still have us feel like we are watching Dateline or Cops or something instead of a regular drama program.

I have trouble believing this. The show has always had a hand-held over-the-shoulder immediate look with desaturated dingy colors but it's always been sharp and had fairly good shadow detail. It had a distinctive style and was fun to watch.

This new dark blurry look is absolutely nothing like video shows shot in 60i like Dateline or Cops. It simply looks like a drama shot on cheap film, and the scenes with camera centered on Michael McKean's lap cutting the top of his head off in the court room was as if someone had forgotten to tighten a bolt on a tripod before the camera started rolling. Other scenes where there was no distinct focus on anything in the frame also looked cheap and sloppy. I honestly felt like I was watching a cop drama from the 70's on my old Quasar.

The PQ of shows should be improving these days, not deteriorating. That's what HDTV is all about but NBC does not seem to agree with this. They've always been encouraging the poorest PQ tolerable, with Chuck and Friday Night Lights presently and West Wing and Studio 60 and others in the past. It seems that now their beloved Law and Order franchise is their latest victim.
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post #40 of 160
1/4/08 at 5:55am
PQ bad - endless promo bugs good.
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post #41 of 160
1/6/08 at 8:29am
Maybe they are intentionally making shows with lo-res so you won't notice the bandwidth the subchannels are using or the fact that their HD PQ just doesn't compete with the other networks when they try to make it look perfect.

Oh, and those bugs with a static message are ANNOYING!! Dark scene with a bright colorful peacock? UGH!!!
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post #42 of 160
1/6/08 at 10:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HofstraJet View Post

Maybe they are intentionally making shows with lo-res so you won't notice the bandwidth the subchannels are using or the fact that their HD PQ just doesn't compete with the other networks when they try to make it look perfect.

This actually makes the artifacts look worse since there is less information on the screen to obscure them.
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post #43 of 160
1/6/08 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

I agree that Sisto is a welcome addition as a detective, I liked him a lot as Brenda's creepy brother in Six Feet Under.

I think this is the exact reason why I *don't* like him as the new detective. He was so convincing as her eff'd up brother that I can only see him that way, and of course it seems contradictory to his new role. I'm sure it will get better over time, but for now I'd rather have Chrissy from the Sopranos as the other detective. At least *that* was a little more believable.
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post #44 of 160
1/7/08 at 1:05am
As a big-time "L&O" geek I felt like Pavlov's dog being presented with a bowl of food but without a bell to tell me it was time to eat when the new season started. Just the fact that all the cast pictures in the opening were new (never happened before; Waterston's picture hadn't changed since '94) and that the 'walk toward the camera' scene was done outdoors instead of inside the corridor sent me into shivers. I'm not crazy about Rene' Balcer's attempts to "CSI" the storylines of "L&O" (a blackout/kidnapping hybrid??!! ). And the fact Sisto's character had a personal stake in the opening case is anathema to 95% of the stories "L&O" does (with notable exceptions like the rape of Dr. Olivet in the early seasons) in which the crime and case aren't personal to the cops or DA's. That said beggars can't be choosers, and after SEVEN MONTHS without any new "L&O" goodness (the other "L&O" shows are OK and the repeats of the mothership on TNT are good, but there is only one "L&O") I was giddy as a schoolgirl to have my baby back, s***ty NBC bit-starved PQ notwithstanding. McCoy as the DA is an intriguing twist, and although Roache with his blackberry seems like its going to be a running gag he didn't grate me as much as I thought he would. I skipped the SD USA premieres of "Criminal Intent" last October, so starting this Wednesday I'm getting back-to-back "L&O" goodness in spades. Its good to be alive!
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post #45 of 160
1/7/08 at 5:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dad1153 View Post

As a big-time "L&O" geek I felt like Pavlov's dog being presented with a bowl of food but without a bell to tell me it was time to eat when the new season started. Just the fact that all the cast pictures in the opening were new (never happened before; Waterston's picture hadn't changed since '94) and that the 'walk toward the camera' scene was done outdoors instead of inside the corridor sent me into shivers. I'm not crazy about Rene' Balcer's attempts to "CSI" the storylines of "L&O" (a blackout/kidnapping hybrid??!! ). And the fact Sisto's character had a personal stake in the opening case is anathema to 95% of the stories "L&O" does (with notable exceptions like the rape of Dr. Olivet in the early seasons) in which the crime and case aren't personal to the cops or DA's. That said beggars can't be choosers, and after SEVEN MONTHS without any new "L&O" goodness (the other "L&O" shows are OK and the repeats of the mothership on TNT are good, but there is only one "L&O") I was giddy as a schoolgirl to have my baby back, s***ty NBC bit-starved PQ notwithstanding. McCoy as the DA is an intriguing twist, and although Roache with his blackberry seems like its going to be a running gag he didn't grate me as much as I thought he would. I skipped the SD USA premieres of "Criminal Intent" last October, so starting this Wednesday I'm getting back-to-back "L&O" goodness in spades. Its good to be alive!

Dad, I never knew you were a L&O geek too, welcome to the club

I have USA HD, but haven't been watching the original episodes of CI over there. It will be nice to watch them on NBC this week and get caught up.

The Blackberry thing is interesting, its something that McCoy would never do in that role, but it brings the show to a new age.
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post #46 of 160
1/7/08 at 9:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefbal99 View Post

Dad, I never knew you were a L&O geek too, welcome to the club

I have USA HD, but haven't been watching the original episodes of CI over there. It will be nice to watch them on NBC this week and get caught up.

The Blackberry thing is interesting, its something that McCoy would never do in that role, but it brings the show to a new age.

When I saw the thing about the Blackberry, it reminded me of a scene in the episode where Jerry Orbach's Lennie Briscoe (we miss you Lennie!) character decided to put in for retirement. He and Det. Green were talking about changes and Green was speaking about rumors that the department was getting Blackberries for the detectives. (Sorry, I'm a little fuzzy on the details)

I think that new-fangled technology taking over was kind of a breaking point - Lennie was never keen on that gee-whiz kind of stuff.
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post #47 of 160
1/7/08 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by humdinger70 View Post

When I saw the thing about the Blackberry, it reminded me of a scene in the episode where Jerry Orbach's Lennie Briscoe (we miss you Lennie!) character decided to put in for retirement. He and Det. Green were talking about changes and Green was speaking about rumors that the department was getting Blackberries for the detectives. (Sorry, I'm a little fuzzy on the details)

I think that new-fangled technology taking over was kind of a breaking point - Lennie was never keen on that gee-whiz kind of stuff.

Yeah, Briscoe was a great character and Orbach was a great actor, so sad when he passed away. I like watching some of the older episodes on TNT where they still had rotary phones and type writers. Lennie embraced the cell phone in his last few seasons
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post #48 of 160
1/11/08 at 9:47am
After watching the show this season, I don't think it is the NBC or the affiliates bit-starving the HD stream.... It looks more like they have gone to a much crappier, granier film stock... It almost looks like it was show in 8mm, although it's probably a budget 16mm.

For some reason, I think they believe this will give the show an edgier, documentary look. I say it's crap, and they should go back to the better filmstock.

The new ADA is crap... But they've definitely improved Alana De La Garza's looks from last year!
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post #49 of 160
1/11/08 at 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by humdinger70 View Post

When I saw the thing about the Blackberry, it reminded me of a scene in the episode where Jerry Orbach's Lennie Briscoe (we miss you Lennie!) character decided to put in for retirement. He and Det. Green were talking about changes and Green was speaking about rumors that the department was getting Blackberries for the detectives. (Sorry, I'm a little fuzzy on the details)

I think that new-fangled technology taking over was kind of a breaking point - Lennie was never keen on that gee-whiz kind of stuff.

I like the episodes around 1995-96 (Ray Curtis was Lennie's partner at the time) when the internet started to become mainstream and VanBuren would be amazed at how many words per day went up on it. Ray was good with computers and was the first "L&O" character comfortable around technology (tracing devices, cell phones, videogame systems, etc.), which allowed Briscoe to come up with some priceless lines. Sisco's new detective character and the new ADA seem to have inherited the show's mantel of the tech-savvy men of "L&O."

Sniff, we miss you Lennie!
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post #50 of 160
1/11/08 at 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonblair View Post

After watching the show this season, I don't think it is the NBC or the affiliates bit-starving the HD stream.... It looks more like they have gone to a much crappier, granier film stock... It almost looks like it was show in 8mm, although it's probably a budget 16mm.

For some reason, I think they believe this will give the show an edgier, documentary look. I say it's crap, and they should go back to the better filmstock.

The new ADA is crap... But they've definitely improved Alana De La Garza's looks from last year!

I have been watching a bunch of Law & Order reruns on TNT HD and the show has always had kind of a dark, murky look, to my eye at least. Thus, this week's new episode on NBC looked about like the older episodes I had seen on TNT.

I don't mind the new ADA guy. He played Bruce Wayne's father in Batman Begins and I think he is just fine. De La Garza is gorgeous. I don't remember her with much of a different look, so I can't comment on whether they have improved how she looked when she first appeared on the show. I have seen pictures of her with longer hair, though, and agree that she looks a LOT better with her hair shorter.
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post #51 of 160
1/11/08 at 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

I have been watching a bunch of Law & Order reruns on TNT HD and the show has always had kind of a dark, murky look, to my eye at least. Thus, this week's new episode on NBC looked about like the older episodes I had seen on TNT.

And you know those older episodes on TNT are upconverted SD.
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post #52 of 160
1/11/08 at 12:46pm
As far back as Season 4, L&O is in HD (which is interesting since the S5 DVDs are the first in widescreen). I don't know if they even air episodes from before Season 4. I haven't seen any, and I've specifically been looking for them for a long time to see if they might also be in HD. The show looks very good on TNT, including episodes from last season. Unless they swapped out cameras for cheaper ones for this season specifically, I'm chalking it up to NBC.
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post #53 of 160
1/11/08 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scowl View Post

And you know those older episodes on TNT are upconverted SD.

You sure about that? A couple years ago they used to be stretchovision prior to about season 10 or 11, but I was actually pretty excited to see some of the season 1-3 stuff that I tivo'd overnight during the recent marathon look to me like it was taken directly off the 16mm in 16:9, artifacts and all. (I asked this question 3 years ago here about the early seasons and someone did some research and told me it was definitely possible to make an HD transfer given everything except maybe the pilot was in 16mm.)

It looks like someone was slowly doing transfers of the most recent seasons first and now finally has finished. Being able to see clear details of Stone's family in a background picture and read all his diplomas (along with the booking sheet in the courthouse) makes me think this isn't an upconvert. Been fun watching - almost like seeing the episodes all over again. Well, that and that the plots were a lot more interesting back then
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post #54 of 160
1/11/08 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by URFloorMatt View Post

The show looks very good on TNT, including episodes from last season. Unless they swapped out cameras for cheaper ones for this season specifically, I'm chalking it up to NBC.

Although I haven't wanted TNT-HD lately, I have seen old episodes of L&O on it that were obviously stretched. These were episodes from the early 90's with Chris Noth, before he came back to the show a decade later.
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post #55 of 160
1/11/08 at 2:30pm
Not stretched. I watch it all the time on TNT HD.
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post #56 of 160
1/11/08 at 2:53pm
It could be stretched; it depends on the season. Noth was in the first five seasons. At least the fourth and fifth seasons are HD and not stretched. I have not recently seen an episode from the first three seasons air to check.

The fourth season in HD means that Jill Hennessy's first season and beyond is HD. I even flipped back and forth between the SD and HD feeds to see if it was just a crop job like season two of The West Wing. It was not. In fact, the SD feed was framed horribly compared to the HD feed.
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post #57 of 160
1/11/08 at 4:11pm
If I remember correctly, Law & Order has been on film so it wouldn't be hard to go back and get HD. The question is how the framing was done... if they can get 16x9 framing from the original film and still look as they intended OR if they are zooming when converting to fill the frame.

I've seen shows where you can get 16x9 by opening the matte, BUT you sometimes end up seeing a boom mike or something that was out of the originally intended 4:3 area.
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post #58 of 160
1/11/08 at 4:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by URFloorMatt View Post

It could be stretched; it depends on the season. Noth was in the first five seasons. At least the fourth and fifth seasons are HD and not stretched.

The fourth season aired between September of 1993 and May of 1994. HDTV broadcasting hadn't even been approved by the FCC at that time. The fourth season DVDs are all 4:3.
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post #59 of 160
1/11/08 at 6:04pm
The series was produced on film and, as evidenced by the TNT airings, protected (if not optimized) for 16:9 as far back as Season 4, perhaps farther. HDTV broadcasting standards are irrelevant.

The Season 4 DVDs are two years old, and NBC Universal has a horrible track record with regard to aspect presentation and DVD releases anyway. See, for example, House: Season 1 in non-anamorphic widescreen.
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post #60 of 160
1/11/08 at 9:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scowl View Post

The fourth season DVDs are all 4:3.

Which is actually the best point of all of this: to not buy DVDs when they're 4:3 pan and scan chop jobs. In L&O's case, I don't understand why NBC couldn't have at least made the effort to letterbox and remaster all seasons if someone was doing the work to transfer the film prints to 16:9 anyway. Logical conclusion: don't buy any of the L&O sets. I need to grab mine out of storage and sell them while they're worth something.

In any case, I'm glad that new L&O is back to break the strike monotony even if it's not what it once was in both PQ and plot, and I'm glad I can watch it now in the way it was shot even if I gotta hold half my hand up to block the next basketball flying or Kyra Sedwick and Holly Hunter smiling across half my screen.
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