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Velodyne SMS-1!!!@@@ - Page 2

post #31 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I had no problems with my Paradigm Servo15+Bryston SP2+SMS-1 at any time. The problem may be with the buttkickers. Were they fed via the SMS-1? If so, why do they need EQ? I know my butt ain't that sensitive.

Kal,

It is partially the buttkicker but then again no I thought I nailed it down to one of the Buttkicker amp plus the SMS-1 combo. When I get home I will post the word doc that explains everything in detail with diagrams and my thorough diagnostics. I sent the Word Doc to Bryston, Buttkicker and Velodyne to thoroughly explain the problem. The Short Story: the SP 1.7 LFE unbalanced out feeds the Buttkickers. The SP 1.7 LFE balanced feeds the SMS-1 which then feeds Crown K-1's powering 4 SVS ultra passive subs. I did (do) not want the SMS-1 feeding the Buttkickers because of the 15 Hz cut off / roll off it applies which is great for the ported subs not so good for the Buttkickers which are good to about 5 Hz If you guys can solve this issue, it would be greatly appreciated.
post #32 of 82
Steve - So are you now going to keep the mains at full or go back to "crossed"?
post #33 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsmmfd View Post

Steve - So are you now going to keep the mains at full or go back to "crossed"?

I did the last setup using mains at full, simply so the SMS-1 would assume
an LFE signal with no crossover of the main speakers - as that's what I get using the Six Shooter for SACD, DVD-A and HD DVD.

For regular redbook CD and DVD and satellite stuff, I am simply using the same EQ settings, but of course a lower sub volume in the CB3 (than for the Six Shooter stuff above). There isn't that much lower than 40 Hz stuff for these
sources anyway.
post #34 of 82
Steve, once you drop down to analog audio you should stay there. I am not a fan of digital EQ but if it's done while the signal is still in the digital domain, like inside your processor fed via SPDIF, it can achieve excellent results.

Now once it's DAed it should stay analog to the speaker. A good analog EQ does far less sonic damage than converting back to digital, multiplying the data which is required for any gain change and generates larger word sizes, like 40 bits, then rounding back to 20 or 24 bits, then DAing once again. A good analog EQ is a few low noise opamps.

Analog is not bad or obsolete. The same silicon fabrication technology that brought us high speed digital systems has also made very good analog amplifier chips.
post #35 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Steve, once you drop down to analog audio you should stay there. I am not a fan of digital EQ but if it's done while the signal is still in the digital domain, like inside your processor fed via SPDIF, it can achieve excellent results.

Now once it's DAed it should stay analog to the speaker. A good analog EQ does far less sonic damage than converting back to digital, multiplying the data which is required for any gain change and generates larger word sizes, like 40 bits, then rounding back to 20 or 24 bits, then DAing once again. A good analog EQ is a few low noise opamps.

Analog is not bad or obsolete. The same silicon fabrication technology that brought us high speed digital systems has also made very good analog amplifier chips.

I appreciate that even for low bass, despite the extra DA conversions, that the SMS-1 clearly improves my sonics - but that a similar or better analog bass EQ would do even better. Can you recommend something at reasonable cost with balanced input and output?
post #36 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

I appreciate that even for low bass, despite the extra DA conversions, that the SMS-1 clearly improves my sonics - but that a similar or better analog bass EQ would do even better. Can you recommend something at reasonable cost with balanced input and output?


Look in this catalog www.fullcompass.com. Most pro sound gear is balanced. As for what's best I don't know. I use DBX analog EQs but with my new tube amps I find them best almost flat but I have yet to do a new room sweep with these amps. The Lexicon DC1 has a basic EQ but I leave this out/off as I perfer analog EQ. I also use this product which seems similar to the SMS.

http://www.speakercity.com/Merchant2...oduct_Code=SOS

This device now works great with my new (old 1974) sub amp. With the built in sub amps I removed, I wasn't that impressed with it. Never got rid of the boom completly however I now believe this was due to the poor dampning factor of the built in plate amps. Also the auto calibration/setup now takes much longer with the new sub amp. It's almost as if it just gave up on the old amps but now is able to really do some good with quality sub amps.

P.S. I'll be posting my new amplification chain pics soon. The faithful Haflers are in the closet contemplating EBAY sale. LCR is biamped all tube with a tube crossover.
post #37 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

I also use this product which seems similar to the SMS.

http://www.speakercity.com/Merchant2...oduct_Code=SOS

It may work well for you but it ain't similar to the SMS. First, it is a single-band PEQ. Second, one has no control as the unit only operates in an autoEQ mode. Third, no bal in/outs.

Let me suggest the Rives PARC (not cheap) as a great analog bass EQ.
post #38 of 82
If anyone is interested here are the details regarding the SMS-1 causing thumping in my system. Since the I wrote the word doc, I determined that it is only partially the Buttkicker Amp at fault as I had the gain levels turned down on the BK amp(s). Who ever can solve this problem - I'll ship them an available (ie not discontinued) DVD, DVD-A, SACD or HD DVD, BluRay disc of their choice!

 

SMS-1 thumping.doc 62k . file
post #39 of 82
Steve,

When you have a moment, download Outlaw Audio's guide to the SMS-1.

http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf

It's written with some humor, but it will give you an easy and thorough understanding of the Velo unit.

Sanjay
post #40 of 82
I love mine. I can't think of my HT without it.
post #41 of 82
Eric,

Do you have a multi-meter? If so set it to measure DC and with the SMS powered check its XLR INPUT and see if you measure any appreciable DC between Pin 1 and Pin 2 and then check again between Pin 1 and Pin 3.

It kind of sounds like it might be leaking some DC which is causing the problems. You might check your other components to see if they are passing DC as well.

Shawn
post #42 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

It may work well for you but it ain't similar to the SMS. First, it is a single-band PEQ. Second, one has no control as the unit only operates in an autoEQ mode. Third, no bal in/outs.

Let me suggest the Rives PARC (not cheap) as a great analog bass EQ.

Well shoot, I guess I should give the SMS a try. I do run balanced lines to my sub amp and use this to do it. http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=45 I have the opposite box on the other end at the amps. I'm wired for stereo subs and I bridge L&R at the rack. I wanted the future ability to run stereo subs if desired.
post #43 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Eric,

Do you have a multi-meter? If so set it to measure DC and with the SMS powered check its XLR INPUT and see if you measure any appreciable DC between Pin 1 and Pin 2 and then check again between Pin 1 and Pin 3.

It kind of sounds like it might be leaking some DC which is causing the problems. You might check your other components to see if they are passing DC as well.

Shawn

Shawn

Thanks for the suggestion. Yes I do have a multi meter ($10 analog jobber). With just the SMS-1 powered on there is 1.8 V DC across pin 1 to pin 2 and 1.5 V DC across pin 1 to pin 3. I trust I shouldn't see any DC across these pins? What are my next steps? Only when the SMS-1 is inserted in the system do I get the thumping so logic seems to point that the SMS-1 is the culprit.
post #44 of 82
Eric,

No, you should not have DC levels like that on the input (or output) of the SMS-1. The DC is passing into your other amps and is causing the popping/thumping.

The SMS is most likely defective. Exchange it or send it back to Velodyne to be repaired. Make a note of the high DC offset from the unit.

Shawn
post #45 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Eric,

No, you should not have DC levels like that on the input (or output) of the SMS-1. The DC is passing into your other amps and is causing the popping/thumping.

The SMS is most likely defective. Exchange it or send it back to Velodyne to be repaired. Make a note of the high DC offset from the unit.

Shawn

Shawn - thanks for your help. Hoping this will resolve the problem. I now need to deal with Velodyne or the dealer. Luckily I have a few friends that have SMS-1's so I will see if I can borrow their units first.
post #46 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

It may work well for you but it ain't similar to the SMS. First, it is a single-band PEQ. Second, one has no control as the unit only operates in an autoEQ mode. Third, no bal in/outs.

Let me suggest the Rives PARC (not cheap) as a great analog bass EQ.

Rives offers EQ for for 6 channels with the first PARC providing power for the second 4 channel unit. I do not know what the specs on the Velodyne unit are but the Rives specs are very good. I do not see may people using them. Rives seems to choose room treatments in the designs most of the the time even in the mega-buck rooms I have seen.
post #47 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Rives offers EQ for for 6 channels with the first PARC providing power for the second 4 channel unit. I do not know what the specs on the Velodyne unit are but the Rives specs are very good. I do not see may people using them. Rives seems to choose room treatments in the designs most of the the time even in the mega-buck rooms I have seen.

The Parc (2 channel) retails at $3,200 and the Parc+ (4 channel add on unit) retails at $3,200. That's why not too many folks use them, the price. But I'm sure they're worth it for our systems, we just ain't gonna pay it.
post #48 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

The Parc (2 channel) retails at $3,200 and the Parc+ (4 channel add on unit) retails at $3,200. That's why not too many folks use them, the price. But I'm sure they're worth it for our systems, we just ain't gonna pay it.

Yeah. You gotta draw the line somewhere!!

In any case, the PARC is sufficiently transparent that you can use it with main channel speakers up to 350Hz, iirc, and is more useful than a dedicated sub EQ. I, too, wish it was more affordable.

Kal
post #49 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by EC View Post

I did (do) not want the SMS-1 feeding the Buttkickers because of the 15 Hz cut off / roll off it applies which is great for the ported subs not so good for the Buttkickers which are good to about 5 Hz .

Eric. You should check which software version you are running on the SMS-1. The latest firmware v2.12 will allow you to set the high pass filter to 5hz though the graph will only show data from 15hz up. It would simplify your setup.
post #50 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman View Post

Eric. You should check which software version you are running on the SMS-1. The latest firmware v2.12 will allow you to set the high pass filter to 5hz though the graph will only show data from 15hz up. It would simplify your setup.

John,

Thanks for the suggesion, I knew about the firmware to bring the cut off down to 5 Hz but this won't help my ported subs which are tuned at 16 hz so I need to leave it at 15 Hz. I will be contacting Velodyne and going to another members house to measure his SMS-1. He is using a similar prepro as mine and is also running the SMS-1 and Buttkickers.
post #51 of 82
You should not have a problem Eric. I have my Ultra tuned to 12 hz with the Sms filter at 5hz without any issues. With your 4 colocated cylinders they should be well protected. Many users have reported good results. Also, you might want to try the 12hz setting because of the subs more linear FR.
post #52 of 82
For the cost and improvement the SMS-1 is a revolutionary product and with the abilty to dowload upgrades should be a killer as it evolves.
post #53 of 82
Maybe someone here can help me. I have 2 Vandersteen 2w's in a room that is over 5500 cubic feet. Placement hasn't really done much. I was thinking about trying an Sms-1. I don't know if the 2w's will allow it, in as much, as they have a very unusual setup. Anybody know?
post #54 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveRM View Post

Maybe someone here can help me. I have 2 Vandersteen 2w's in a room that is over 5500 cubic feet. Placement hasn't really done much. I was thinking about trying an Sms-1. I don't know if the 2w's will allow it, in as much, as they have a very unusual setup. Anybody know?

Steve.

The SMS-1 can support multiple subs (eg sub outs) but this is measuring the two subs as "one" so it will make the same adjustments to both. You can daisy chain two SMS-1's so each sub is calibrated independently with the mic in your sweet spot. There is another thread in the sub section on what is preferred - bass traps or the SMS-1 and many of the respondents suggested Bass Traps first and then the SMS-1.
post #55 of 82
If you are going to use 2 subs can the Rives Parc handle both subs?? with my Meridian 861-4.2- would I be better off using the parc or 2 SMS-1-?? thanks gary
post #56 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bebop86 View Post

If you are going to use 2 subs can the Rives Parc handle both subs?? with my Meridian 861-4.2- would I be better off using the parc or 2 SMS-1-?? thanks gary

The SMS-1 allows you to connect one sub balanced or three subs single-ended!!!

Anthony Grimani,noted acoustics expert, states that you should only use one sub. I now agree - although you can place multiple subs chained if your subs allow it. So I use three Aerial subs - thanks to the SMS-1, I just placed them
side by side about 10 inches off the front screen wall to the left of my Aerial CC5 center speaker. WOW! The frequency response is so smooth that I don't even need the SMS-1in my system. I used the SMS-1 to boost by 2 dB at 16, 20 and 32 Hz only, as some reviews I read suggested raising level only that much, if at all, as otherwise sub amps may clip some. So I really don't even need to keep the SMS-1 connected. Even if one doesn't keep it in the system, what a fantastic objective diagnostic tool it is!!!

Initially I retained my prior sub placement, inside both front Aerial 10Ts and
the third sub by the front screen wall to the left of the center CC5 speaker.
I reversed phase on the front right sub but I still had some irregularities I didn't like. So this AM I did the heavy work moving an Aerial sub to my listening position, and then moving all 3 Aerial subs side by side as discussed above.

For Theta Compli SACD and DVD-Audio, and Toshiba HD DVD, using multi-channel analog outs and Theta Six Shooter, I ended up keeping Compli internal analog speaker settings on "large" (I tried "small", but the SACD sub output sound level is way way too low this way and doesn't sound right, so kept large, and sounds fantastic), and for HD DVD tried "small" with 80 Hz crossover and sound lacked dynamics so kept "large". The above SMS-1 setup seems to sound fantastic with all sources although I will certainly as time goes perhaps play with it some and fine tune per source.

Steely Dan "Gaucho" multi-channel SACD never ever sounded so good!!!
I can play it up all the way if I want on the CB3 volume and its so loud but so live without strain!!! Unreal. Watched "Lucky Slevin" (or something like that, with Bruce Willis) on DVD and the dynamics were breathtaking, easily better than ever.
Watched the past few episodes of "Lost" and never sounded as good or dynamic.

I don't have frequency response problems above 100 Hz. Below that level, I had the not untypical low bass problems one has in placing stereo or multiple speakers for excellent imaging. The SMS-1 provides an easy way to diagnose, properly place subs, and correct the "minor" resulting discrepancies and then you can sell the SMS-1 if you like, or keep it to impress folks.

I don't know if the Rives Parc gives you the ease of an on screen display, microphone, etc. that makes the SMS-1 so darn easy, and relatively cheap, to use.
post #57 of 82
Thread Starter 
Lets discuss what I did in using the SMS-1 and hi pass/low pass crossovers.

My Theta CB3, for digital sources, allows me phenomenal flexibility in setting crossovers: Choices of 40, 50, 63 and 80 Hz per each crossover type.
Phase Perfect, also choice of slopes 6, 12, 18 and 24 dB (due to technical mumbo jumbo I do not pretend to understand, the forgoing is the high pass, and the low pass is always a 6 dB slope). Linkwitz-Riley, slopes of 12 and 24 dB. Butterworth, separate high pass with slopes of 6, 12, 18 and 24 dB, and low pass same slopes.

What's really easy to do is simply change the Hz crossover and slope on the fly as you watch the SMS-1 frequency response screen. In doing this, I verified that
two crossover combinations look best re frequency response:

1. Phase Perfect 80 Hz 24 dB (but the low pass is only 6 dB slope)
2. Butterworth Hi Pass 63 Hz 18 dB, Low Pass 80 Hz 6 dB

Both of the above had about the same overall frequency response graph overall.
On redbook CD, my impression was both sound great but #1 a bit better.Theta says that all things being equal frequency response wise, Phase Perfect should sound the best for technical reasons.
post #58 of 82
Thread Starter 
Turns out I don't need any bass traps. HAAAAA!!!@@@
post #59 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Turns out I don't need any bass traps. HAAAAA!!!@@@

SMS-1 cannot tell you that since it cannot display or correct decay anomalies.
post #60 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

SMS-1 cannot tell you that since it cannot display or correct decay anomalies.

That's why you write for the mags. HA!

So what's the next step spending more bucky bucks to display and correct decay anomalies, to determine need for bass traps, since I have good frequency response?
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