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HD70 Tweakers Thread. - Page 5

post #121 of 2474
Excellent- I would guess everyone is looking forward to Kras' crucifixion... er, I mean write-up of the HD70. I would guess that everyone who has remotely followed these threads has known the outcome of it for a long time now when RedDog couldn't get that particular unit (I'm assuming it was his) to tweak properly in the first place.

So once the official blasting is done- can we safely assume cavu, Kras, tradewinds, RedDog and any other critics will get in their last HAHAHA- I told you so, their last dig in at Tom the shrill and THEN LEAVE THIS THREAD NEVER TO RETURN?????????????? That would be the decent thing to do so as not to attempt to rub salt in the wounds of those who have bought the projector and like it. I would hope we can see some semblance of maturity going forward, we'll see.

Jason- certainly no offense toward you as I would never lump you into the category with the others. I have never found you to be anything but fair and helpful.
post #122 of 2474
gottahaveapj


RedDogs projector is not defective. The specific problem he had in calibrating is inherent in the design of the projector. I know why the projector was designed that way because I can see the benefit the designers were shooting for. RedDog's problem is he is a newbie DIY calibrator trying to learn the ropes, whereas I with my many years of experience recognized the problem right away for what it was - and was able to calibrate it out. This was per Red Dog's request because he does not agree with the projector designers intent - but I also did a calibration that accounted for the designers intent. Calibration is the art of compromise applied to the science of video engineering.

And I will not be commenting on my review until RedDog gets it back and we have chance to go over the charts while he can see it on screen. It would not be fair to him to do otherwise. He needs to decide which way is best for him.

Rather than your fanboy fantasy about RedDog intending to buy a defective projector somehow making every effort to ensure his AVS alliance vendor was in on this plan for a local Infocus dealer to put out a faulty review to crush Optoma sales and guitarman with it think again.

I have every business interest in seeing that projectors I review are calibrated the best they can be. I owe that to the customer I am doing it for - and I have every intent of being able to get referrals and calibrating other customers projectors of that same model. With my calibration reviews they will know what they are paying for and if the improvement is worth the mail-in calibration fee. I absolutely compete with guitarman in that mail-in calibration business - and I have every intent of demonstrating I am a better calibrator than him - with better charts - so people send me their projectors rather than tom. Damn straight I want a piece of his Optoma a day calibration biz he claims to have. So it would not serve my calibration biz to lie and cheat on my charts like you are implying - I would much rather have a calibration sale than a projector sale anyways.


And if it does not need calibration because it is perfect out of the box - I say so and tell people not to waste their money on sensors.

So come up with another fanboy fantasy - because yours is not holding up to reality. This is the tweaking thread - and talking about the science of calibration and what these controls do - so that people want to fix their projectors and make it better has every place being discussed here. You cannot talk about tweaking if you don't talk about flaws and how to work around them.

If you do not like that - then click to buy one hook it up to your XBOX and be happy. And I am more than happy to extend the same courtesy I did to Red Dog - if you say your projector is perfect and not defective like you claim his is - then I'll take that bet. If you are right I'll pay your postage and eat the time with the sensor. If you are wrong - you pay for the calibration.
post #123 of 2474
Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

And if it does not need calibration because it is perfect out of the box - I say so and tell people not to waste their money.

Krasmuzik

I don't want to take this thread off topic but could you provide a short list of the projectors that you have found to be "close" out of the box?

I was originally looking at the IN76 but thought I might save some money with the HD70. Is the IN76 good out of the box or is there another you could might recommend?

Thanks for your advice.
post #124 of 2474
I have never questioned your expertise Kras nor would I. It's your wanting to rub your expertise in everyone's face that gets old for me. Perhaps it does not for others and to each his own.

This part I find hysterical-

Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

Rather than your fanboy fantasy about RedDog intending to buy a defective projector somehow making every effort to ensure his AVS allaince vendor was in on this plan for an Infocus dealer to put out a faulty review to crush Optoma sales and guitarman with it think again..

A little over the top isn't it?? Like I want to find a conspiracy in this.

For the record I think I am leaning towards an Epson 400 for my next projector as I can't abide by the extreme offsets and throw distance of the current Optoma's. So much for the fanboy theory.

Carry on... I will watch from afar as I really shouldn't be posting in a tweakers thread when I don't own the projector. Same should go for some of the critics as well..
post #125 of 2474
GulfStream that is off topic - but I will simply say - such an occurance is rare in the budget projector forum. It happens more frequently in the spendy projector forum. I have always offered a money back guarantee if I could not improve the numbers on my calibrations - but usually cine4home.de gets to boxes before I do. So I tend to rely on their reviews to decide if someone should have me work on a box or not. They recently reviewed the MitsuHC3100 and MitsuHC1100- but they are only out in Europe - but they did pretty good on presets - and likely would be in the don't waste your money tweaking it. I make that recommendation even though I am not a Mitsu dealer - and I would lose out on MitsuHC3000 calibration biz.

Of course there is always the videophile that every six months needs to make sure it is not drifted even 1% regardless of how close the presets where - I do have those customers and happy to serve their needs!
post #126 of 2474
gottahaveapj

Maybe I am dense - but what else are you implying other than exactly what you said. You expect me to crucify the box - which you claim RedDogs is out of the norm because he could not calibrate. Leaving the obvious implication that I have a business interest in trolling the shills - or something like that.

Feel free to delete your message if you are not comfortable it says what you meant. As it stands it appears to be an attack on my business integrity as well as my technical competency. Do you think I would take kindly to such remarks? If you say I will crucify a box - that is an blatant attack on my technical competency and business integrity.


From what I have seen of cavu's posts - he has a lot of SP4805ers and Bravo owners that want his opinion on should they sidegrade - and will the Bravo work. So he needs to ask the critical questions if it will or not. I did not have time to get to 48Hz so that question remains. From what I understand there was something flaky with the IN76 and that player (don't know the details) - so I get the impression he is trying to help his Bravoites (for lack of a better name) to find a HD projector he would recommend hooking it up to.
post #127 of 2474
[quote=gottahavapj]I have never questioned your expertise Kras nor would I. It's your wanting to rub your expertise in everyone's face that gets old for me. Perhaps it does not for others and to each his own.

So its not just me who feels that way.
Alittle humility goes a long way in buisness.
post #128 of 2474
Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

From what I understand there was something flaky with the IN76 and that player

Unlike the SP4805, the IN7x series does not support 72Hz frame-lock but fortunately, like the SP4805, the IN7x series does support 48Hz.

It is important that the projector support 48Hz or 72Hz refresh rates (or preferably both) in order to eliminate 3:2 pulldown motion stutter and jitter.

It appears that the HD70 does not support either because, while he first claimed the HD70 did support 48Hz, guitarman withdrew his posting on this issue and did not make any comment on 72Hz.

That's too bad because the HD70 looked like a very promising budget solution (assuming it could be properly calibrated).
post #129 of 2474
cavu

OK I think that is the same as the SP7210 - different circuit in the IN76 - but only the SP4805 did both 48Hz and 72Hz - neat colorwheel trick! The real hat trick will be supporting 120Hz - maybe when LED comes and replace the colorwheel that will be possible - then video/film does not require refresh change. It takes time to find all the flaws with 48Hz performance anyways - so best bit is hope an HTPC/Bravo HD70 owner spends some time with it.
post #130 of 2474
Wow, this is one volitile thread!

I love it.
post #131 of 2474
You know I can't help but think how much happier I would be if I had never looked into calibrating my first HDTV. I could just sit there watching my TV thinking it was the greatest while it was no where near D65 lol. Since I know all about this stuff though, I'm glad we got to see that there are some downsides to this budget projector and should perhaps save our money. Makes me feel good that I didn't jump the gun and buy one!
post #132 of 2474
What I find funny is that I tried to speak the truth and all I got was blasted. I wasnt trying to say anything bad about anyone who liked it. I just thought people should know that this thing had problems before they rushed out and got one like I did. Now I have to start all over and buy another PJ. On top of that I have to find a buyer for my hd70. Its ISFed but I dont know that, thats gonna help it sell. I may end up having to swallow the cost. As a first time projector it will get the job done. I think I'm past the entry level stuff now though. I'm gonna have to spend 2x as much in order to realy be happy. I'm gonna duck out of here for a while I'll post what I think of kras's job on thursday when I get the 70 back. Altough I dout at this point anyone here cares what I think about it anyway. Apparently everyone thinks I bought the hd70 just so I could come on here and trash it.
post #133 of 2474
OK- I never questioned your technical expertise or your business integrity to do an honest review or anything of the sort. You are putting words in my mouth and bending my statements to fit your argument.

I made the probably incorrect assumption that RedDog's HD70 was to flawed out of the box (or possibly defective) to be saved and it should be returned to Optoma or the dealer for perhaps a better functioning unit. When I made the statement that you would probably crucify the box in your review- that belief came from the assumption that you were working with a terribly flawed unit which gave it probably two strikes against it right out of the box. How could it stand on it's own facing that? It was NEVER to imply that you had your mind made up that the projector was crap before you ever got it or that you wouldn't give the proper effort to calibrate it.

I am done with this discussion.
post #134 of 2474
Then please delete your post - because that is the implication anyone gets that will read it - AND is certainly the implication that I got.

If you want professionals in this forum to help you out - challenging their abilities and ethics is not the best way to do it. I will also cleanup the thread if that clearly was not your intent and you delete the thread accordingly. Most of the pros on AVS - be they AVS sales, magazine reviewers, local installers or whatever - only post to the spendy forum because people are more receptive to them knowing more than they do - that is why people PAY them. Red Dog took advantage of my free offer so that I don't have to depend on marketing reps to send me a review unit - but he still paid a fortune for the redeye air freight. Do you think he would fork over those bucks for any reason other than improving his projector?

And anyways the review is not done yet so it is premature to be guessing what you think the outcome is. I only did the HDMI port and that review and subsequent calibration took twenty hours - I still need to do the component port before it has to go back.
post #135 of 2474
Yikes , I guess I should not have stated what my over-all opinion was ... sorry .

------- Jason
post #136 of 2474
Quote:
Originally Posted by gottahavapj View Post

cavu [...] and any other critics

Please back up your comment and point out one post where I have been critical of the HD70.
post #137 of 2474
This thread hard turned to crap.

First we have Cavu who wont give up his fight that his 400 dollar projector is better then the HD70. Hes told time and time again to go away, yet still doesnt. No one cares about you or your opinion cavu. Take a XanaX and go to a 4805 cheerleading thread.

Then we has Kras whos preaching his Holier then thou method of calibration as if his eyes have seen the light from heaven and are blessed to calibrate better then anyone else on this forum, let alone the earth.

Then we have Gamerpimp whos obviously just tagging along for the ride like so many on forums do. Kras is going to the bathroom, hey look, gamerpimp is headed by the door to wait for him!

Seriously guys. People LIKE their HD70s. I LOVE my HD70. You trying to tell me theres a "push" that only a few people can see isnt going to not make me like the projector any less. Give it up. Its an awesome projector, its got amazing colors once calibrated, and its at a great price as well. Bitch all you want, literally, its not going to change the fact that people are happy with the product. In fact, Kras being a hardcore infocus dealer with Cavu following him like a 3 year old shows that this is just more FUD being spread.

I suggest just leaving the thread and starting a new one entitled "We dont own the HD70, but we're here to tell you why it sucks!" and leave this one to people who you know, actually own a HD70.
post #138 of 2474
blitz6speed

If you think you are better than me at calibration - then fine have at it. The going rate for mail-in calibrations is half of ISF rate - you can make lots of money with your calibration skills like guitarman does on Optomas. You will make even more money then him - because apparently you are so good at it you don't need spendy equipment. This of course assumes people will actually pay you for your well crafted by eye calibrations. AFTER ALL IF YOU LOVE THE COLORS = THEN THEY WILL PAY YOU LOTS OF MONEY TO GET THE SAME LOVELY COLORS.


And if you have not figured out why so many SP4805ers are so interested in the HD70 - it is the same price they paid for their SP4805 - so they want to know if it is worth the sidegrade to get the HD. There is a reason the SP4805 threads got millions of views - but I guess you are hoping for the same millions of views by talking to everyone you can about how lovely you made your HD70 colors. And guess what - if everyone else agrees with you - then that will happen. So keep it up - because just your saying it is all some people need to be convinced. Who needs technical calibration reviews mucking up the works.
post #139 of 2474
I own both the HD70 and HD72. I'm luke warm on the HD70. I have no axe to grind, am not affiliated with any manufacturer or sales force, etc.

I can see blotchiness in the colors in the HD70, but no green push. Sometimes tan faces appear too tan, same for faces toward the red end of the spectrum. I've tried to calibrate by eye -- I would not spend money to professionally calibrate a 1k machine.

The HD70 is not as good as the HD72, which i really like. It is not as bright, too. If i had to do it over again, i would probably spend the extra $400 or so for another HD72. Do i wish I could return the HD70? No, it's good enough for my purposes in a place i have upstate that I visit on weekends. I can live with it until 1080p prices really come down. A far as price/performance, the HD70 is worth the money -- if you understand you're not getting a high end light cannon 720p projector. JM2cents
post #140 of 2474
Thread Starter 
Kras: I'm looking forward to your indepth attempt at calibrating the HD70. I do worry that maybe that reddogs unit might be a bit marginal but I look forward to seeing what you achieve on it.
I've never owned a projector that didn't benefit from careful calibration and lacking the equipment to do it myself, I do count on folks like yourself with the equipment and experience to work out how to squeeze out the last drop of performance from the units.

After all, isn't that what we all come here for.
post #141 of 2474
From a newbies perspective.

I very am happy with my HD70, however I have nothing else to compare it to. I could probably run myself ragged trying to calibrate/configure it 100%, but I like how it looks so I leave it there. I can live with the fact that it might be off a little bit, but so what? Is that going to make the experience any less enjoyable?

I dont think so.

You guys are getting all bent out of shape for no reason. If you're happy with how it looks, then its calibrated correctly.
post #142 of 2474
I think the problem here, is that there are two sets of people looking to buy this projector:

Group 1: Has no idea how to calibrate grayscale or the color decoder and as long as the picture looks good to them, they are happy. This projector is most likely perfect for this group of people, and if they want to stay happy, NEVER look into how to calibrate to D65 (grayscale) or adjust the color decoder. Just setup brightness and contrast and maybe use the avia disk to get as close as you can on tint and color.

Group 2: Know exactly what a tv calibrated to D65 looks like as well as colors being pushed and therefore demands perfection of any new display device they buy. If it's not quite right, these people can tell right away and it will forever haunt and torment them.

Group 1 people should not take offense to the group 2 people criticizing the projector, nor should they get angry when a group 2 person says that there are problems with this projector. Group 1 people really shouldn't even be in this thread because apparently, the more you learn about "tweaking" your HD70, the more potential you have to be disappointed with it's performance. Just set up your HD70, get the picture the way you like it, and be happy!
post #143 of 2474
Group 1: represents the vast majority of consumers and should reconginze that regardless as to what Group 2 (the minority) feels, their negative reviews of the unit will have no quantified affect on the unit's selling potential.

Any consumer looking to substantiate their purchase, will easily be pushed over the fence by the retail & dealer reviews.

Group 2: Good Luck.


*goes to put $25 reserve on MS HD-DVD drive*
post #144 of 2474
Group 1: Should be thanking Group 2 for providing the information that can make their "I'm happy with my PJ" even better. If G1 doesn't want to ever want to read the info, then don't. Ignorance can be bliss, but it won't be perfection.
post #145 of 2474
[quote=spyder69696 Ignorance can be bliss, but it won't be perfection.[/QUOTE]

Nothing is.
post #146 of 2474
I hate having to sift through 140 replies to find the 4 posts where people actually posted their tweaks, this one included.
Then its the same few people who have got to point out what this projector is missing, blah blah blah, can't produce 1.21 jigawatts of power, yadda yadda, but the IN(insert model number) can.

Thanks for the tweaks by the way. I don't have immediate access to an Avia disc. I have the Sound and Vision version which is a bit simplified.
post #147 of 2474
Im thankful others realise what im tyring to say. Theres going to be a LOT of happy HD70 owners with this price point. Unless your life revolves around everything being at ABSOLUTE PERFECTTION, i suggest a Marantz projector to ease your pain and suffering through lifes very hard times ahead.

Im going to calibrate the PS2 with Avia and report back with S-Video calibration #s. Okami looks pretty off.
post #148 of 2474
Yeah, I would say this PJ is great with 360 and Sports HD enthusiasts; which is why they have given this a kick in the out-of-box settings to "push green". Luckily, the color issues can be toned down.

On the other hand:

Watching a darker HD movie last night ("Cast Away" on TNT HD), I noticed that this PJ looks a little off in the dark scenes. I couldn't quite put my finger on what is going on at first. The blacks are remarkedly noise free and solidly dark, but the images seem harsh...then I remembered something; my old Infocus X1 had the "presentation" mode where the white element of the color wheel became active. Enabling this mode gave bright scenes an increased punch, but ultimately, the dark scenes suffered due to the harsh lighting it caused (I would call a "hot" white) - this appears to be what the HD70 is doing. I've read that it uses a white element in the color wheel (as a way to increase contrast), but that there is no way to turn it off. If this is true, than this might be an issue for me. My HT use is mainly 360 gaming and movie watching, so while I have noticed a huge leap in gaming fidelity and clarity, the movie watching seems slightly less enjoyable than my venerable old 4805. I have read that this problem might become less apparent once the lamp settles in (which many H31 owners reported) or by using a ND2 filter to tone down the bright output? Does the H31 have a white element in the color wheel? If so, could it be turned on and off? Is it possible Optoma could release a firmware update that allows you to turn the white element off? I dunno...

Maybe ImageAI will help? Why is that nobody uses ImageAI in this thread or any other thread, yet PJCentral says that using it is a better choice?

I am not hopping on any "HD70 hate band-wagon". I have no affiliation to a brand, and I am no PJ expert. I see a lot of awesome images being pumped out by the HD70. When it shines, it shines amazingly well, and you say to yourself..."WOW...this cost under 1K?"...other times you wonder if something isn't a bit off. I think that one single problem is the white element! Optoma, can this be shut off? Pretty please?
post #149 of 2474
1.21 Jigawatts??!
1.21 Jigawatts?!?!!!??
So this thing is nuclear???
Open it up. Does it say made in North Korea?
post #150 of 2474
Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz6speed View Post

Im going to calibrate the PS2 with Avia and report back with S-Video calibration #s. Okami looks pretty off.

"S-Video"
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