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HD70 Tweakers Thread. - Page 2

post #31 of 2474
10/3/06 at 7:08pm
I'm not sure what Kras will be able to do with the hd70. He may be able to work some magic and get it to a point that its watchable. However as far as I am concerned right now the hd70 is not at all acceptable for theater use. I also take issue with someone on this forum lying to the readers here and saying it tracks D65 out of the box. It doesnt. And thats all well and good as long as it can be calibrated to D65 with the right gear. As far as I call tell that cant be done eaither.
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post #32 of 2474
10/3/06 at 7:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by [H]RedDog View Post

Heres some color settings that are a little better than the last set I posted. You guys can give them a try. This is what I came up with yesterday after another 3 hours on my meter.



Gamma= pc
bc= off
colortemp= 1
Red Gain = 3
Green Gain = -23
Blue Gain = -23
Red Bias = -1
Green Bias = 2
Blue Bias = 2

That was weird. Once i put the settings in and watched a movie, it looked GREAT. Really nice. When i went back to the desktop, i had a red tint in the whites? I had to reboot for a software update, and the red tint hasnt been back since and your calibration definetly looks great. However, i had to put BC to 2. 4 put too much white into the blacks in dark scenes like harry potter 3, but 2 is just right. 0 has no pop, i dont like it. Definetly good work on these calibrations! Also, whats your other settings, like contrast and brightness, color,tint, etc?

Edit -

Ok, the red tint wouldnt go away. I had to put Red Gain to -11 and now its fine, but not sure if the image pops like your old settings. Gonna go back to those and compare.
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post #33 of 2474
10/3/06 at 7:28pm
I'n not sure about the other settings. I didnt write them down and my hd70 is now packed up. I think contrast was at 15 and brightness at 4 and color at -2 with those numbers. I'm not 100% sure though. Tint was at 0 with all the calibrations for sure. Just use avia or dve to set your contrast and brightness.
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post #34 of 2474
10/3/06 at 7:38pm
ok, got my HD70, toshiba HD-DVD player and optoma grey wolf II screen. set it all up today/tonight and there is 1 thing that really bothers me:

i have the HD70 ceiling mounted and if you stand up to watch (or when i stand on a chair and make adjustments to the PJ) the picture looks stunning -- crisp, clear, perfect. however, when i sit down (my couch sits low), the picture clarity/brightness/crispness all go away. when i have the lamp on BRIGHT and am sitting down, the picture looks considerably darker than on LOW standing up.

HOW CAN I FIX THIS? is it the grey wolf II screen? i didnt have this problem with my Infocus 4805/5000 using a draper white screen. if it is the grey wolf II, i could get out the tools and mount it back up. i would really like confirmation before doing this however.

i heard so many good things about the grey wolf II that i figured it would be much better than my draper.

help!
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post #35 of 2474
10/3/06 at 7:46pm
Its the screen. Hang your white screen back up.
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post #36 of 2474
10/3/06 at 7:50pm
Yep, in most situations that screen will produce poor results in a ceiling mounted setup. Would probably look great if you wanted to table mount the pj, if not though then send back the screen and use your old one, or get another.
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post #37 of 2474
10/3/06 at 7:52pm
Yep, graywolf II is table mounted or not worth it.

Ok, after messing around, here are the calibrations that i feel are SPOT on perfect.

Note that this is for HDMI and thanks to red dog for his #s as a baseline so i could arrive at this point. No more red tint, everythings just right.

Image:

Cinema
19
-4
15
-2
15

Advanced:
PC
4
0
1
off
YCbCR

RGB/Gain/Bias:

4
-3
-8
-22
-15
-13

And there you go. Try that out and let me know your results.
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post #38 of 2474
10/3/06 at 7:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by [H]RedDog View Post

Heres the best I could get to bring this thing to d65k. I've tried so hard to get this thing to calibrate right. I come up with number close to this every time. And its still not right. At this point I'm very unhappy. I feel stuck with the unit as I will probably lose over $200 if I return it. I realy hope optoma releases a new firmware and fixes the problems with the color decoder.

gamma= pc
BC=2
color temp = 1
Red Gain = 13
Green Gain = -3
Blue Gain = -8
Red Bias = -20
Green Bias = -15
Blue Bias = -13

This is on a white screen

Red, are these VGA settings?
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post #39 of 2474
10/3/06 at 7:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by [H]RedDog View Post

Its the screen. Hang your white screen back up.

thanks guys. if this was table mounted, it would be beautiful.... back to the old screen
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post #40 of 2474
10/3/06 at 8:03pm
Those are the hdmi settings.
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post #41 of 2474
10/3/06 at 10:01pm
where can you find firmware updates for optoma pj's?
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post #42 of 2474
10/3/06 at 10:08pm
Just a suggestion:

It would be better to list values such as

Red Gain = 13
Red Bias = -18

using colons:

Red Gain: 13
Red Bias: -18

Makes it easier to see the negative values if there are less horizontal lines running around. Well, for me at least...
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post #43 of 2474
10/3/06 at 10:46pm
thanks for the settings blitz6speed. this thing looks BEAUTIFUL with them. i find myself sitting on the couch in amazement watching hd-dvd on it
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post #44 of 2474
10/3/06 at 10:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by though View Post

ok, got my HD70, toshiba HD-DVD player and optoma grey wolf II screen. set it all up today/tonight and there is 1 thing that really bothers me:

i have the HD70 ceiling mounted and if you stand up to watch (or when i stand on a chair and make adjustments to the PJ) the picture looks stunning -- crisp, clear, perfect. however, when i sit down (my couch sits low), the picture clarity/brightness/crispness all go away. when i have the lamp on BRIGHT and am sitting down, the picture looks considerably darker than on LOW standing up.

HOW CAN I FIX THIS? is it the grey wolf II screen? i didnt have this problem with my Infocus 4805/5000 using a draper white screen. if it is the grey wolf II, i could get out the tools and mount it back up. i would really like confirmation before doing this however.

i heard so many good things about the grey wolf II that i figured it would be much better than my draper.

help!

GreyWolf II and HighPower are retroreflective screens - and get brighter the closer your head gets to the lens.
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post #45 of 2474
10/3/06 at 10:59pm
I find all the numbers flying amusing - looks better - nope it is worse - one guy saying it was better - the other guy saying it is worse.

The reality is everyones basic video adjustments are unique to the sources - while these advanced adjustments will be unique to each lamp. I always have to recalibrate after a lamp change! So it's fun to try the RGB numbers - but it more than likely will fall short in the Red, Green or Blue direction and not hit the target!. You may be right thinking the other guys settings are too red - because for your lamp - it is!

Things like BC on/off or gamma this or that, or this preset is closer to start with- are much better things to be sharing. When I do calibration reviews - I review a configuration matrix of all projector modes - so you know what you gain or lose with each of these presets.

But anyone tweaking should have a test pattern DVD for setting brightness/contrast at least - waste of time trying someone elses settings for that basic stuff.


Here is a better way to tweak greyscale by eye - using a RGB source like HDMI - that you know has reference tint settings (the Toshiba HDVD is pretty good if I recall). Look at the ColorBars (not a grey bars!) at yellows. Yellows are obvious if they are Green or Red. Magenta will be Blue or Red. Cyan will be Blue or Green. Now tug on the RGB gains to get them aligned - then go back to greyscale patterns and play with bias to see if things can track. You are not adjusting the color decoder - you are still using the greyscale controls - but the trick is the secondary colors lie across the opposing primaries thru the greyscale point. So you move the greyscale around - the secondaries will move!

If you add Blue - Cyan and Magenta become Blue. If you add Red - Magenta and Yellow pull Red. If you add Green - Cyan and Yellow pull Green (cutting RGB left as exercise for reader!)

This eye trick does not work with component - because tint being miscalibrated messes the trick up. Do not try to adjust your white point by eye using a greyscale pattern - you will get fooled!! The brightest bar is what your brain will see as white - and your brain will think the other greybars are wrong if the brightest bar color pushes and is actually what is wrong! I have had to redo a calibration because I did not trust my instruments over my eyes when the brightest white was off from the other greys.

I don't mind posting to a tweakers thread - one cannot improve their display if they do not first go thru the exercise of critiquing it on how to make it better! If anyone is insecure enough about their purchase - then they should not be in a tweakers thread.
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post #46 of 2474
10/4/06 at 12:34am
so one could argue that, by using these posted numbers, you are indeed getting a better picture versus factory numbers since every factory calibrated unit has slightly different (uncontrollable) characteristics?



Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

I find all the numbers flying amusing - looks better - nope it is worse - one guy saying it was better - the other guy saying it is worse.

The reality is everyones basic video adjustments are unique to the sources - while these advanced adjustments will be unique to each lamp. I always have to recalibrate after a lamp change! So it's fun to try the RGB numbers - but it more than likely will fall short in the Red, Green or Blue direction and not hit the target!. You may be right thinking the other guys settings are too red - because for your lamp - it is!

Things like BC on/off or gamma this or that, or this preset is closer to start with- are much better things to be sharing. When I do calibration reviews - I review a configuration matrix of all projector modes - so you know what you gain or lose with each of these presets.

But anyone tweaking should have a test pattern DVD for setting brightness/contrast at least - waste of time trying someone elses settings for that basic stuff.


Here is a better way to tweak greyscale by eye - using a RGB source like HDMI - that you know has reference tint settings (the Toshiba HDVD is pretty good if I recall). Look at the ColorBars (not a grey bars!) at yellows. Yellows are obvious if they are Green or Red. Magenta will be Blue or Red. Cyan will be Blue or Green. Now tug on the RGB gains to get them aligned - then go back to greyscale patterns and play with bias to see if things can track. You are not adjusting the color decoder - you are still using the greyscale controls - but the trick is the secondary colors lie across the opposing primaries thru the greyscale point. So you move the greyscale around - the secondaries will move!

If you add Blue - Cyan and Magenta become Blue. If you add Red - Magenta and Yellow pull Red. If you add Green - Cyan and Yellow pull Green (cutting RGB left as exercise for reader!)

This eye trick does not work with component - because tint being miscalibrated messes the trick up. Do not try to adjust your white point by eye using a greyscale pattern - you will get fooled!! The brightest bar is what your brain will see as white - and your brain will think the other greybars are wrong if the brightest bar color pushes and is actually what is wrong! I have had to redo a calibration because I did not trust my instruments over my eyes when the brightest white was off from the other greys.

I don't mind posting to a tweakers thread - one cannot improve their display if they do not first go thru the exercise of critiquing it on how to make it better! If anyone is insecure enough about their purchase - then they should not be in a tweakers thread.
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post #47 of 2474
10/4/06 at 12:51am
I think the benefit of posting these #s is to give someone who just bought the projector a chance to try it with someone elses calibration and see where they stand. At the very least, it gives them a basis to go on and see which they prefered (OTB or forum calibrated) and then tune from there. Better this way and to have options vs just guessing at if it looks right.
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post #48 of 2474
10/4/06 at 10:23am
i agrere blitz, although probably not perfect, it makes one feel like they did something to 'energize' the pic

thanks again for posting your results.



Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz6speed View Post

I think the benefit of posting these #s is to give someone who just bought the projector a chance to try it with someone elses calibration and see where they stand. At the very least, it gives them a basis to go on and see which they prefered (OTB or forum calibrated) and then tune from there. Better this way and to have options vs just guessing at if it looks right.
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post #49 of 2474
10/4/06 at 10:58am
I said you could very well make it worse not better. In generally front projectors are deficient in Red - so cutting Blue/Green will move you in the general direction. But how do you balance the Blue/Green - since they are by design opposing vectors?!. Some will be more Green, others will be more Blue, and some will be excess Red to begin with - so adding Red by cutting Green/Blue can make it worse. Maybe someone elses lamp lacks more Red than yours - so you use their Green/Blue settings and you overshoot - now your picture is overly Red! They also had more Blue than you so they added some Green - now your picture is Yellow!

Having a picture that is too Red or too Blue is tolerable (technical reason is it follows the black body radiation curve - so it just looks warm or cold) - while having one that is too Green or too Magenta is actually rather sickening! If people are that color in real life - they will soon be dead. Whereas too much Red is just a bad sun burn!

It is much better to learn how to tweak and understand the changes you are making - rather than plugging in the new numbers of the day and tweaking blindly. Which is why I posted how to do that using colorbars without using test gear. A quick check that new numbers either made it worse or better if nothing else.

Now a projector calibrated at the factory using statistical lamps will minimize the error around the target - minimizes the need to tweek. But without lamp QA in place and a calibration process in the factory that does not happen. So the question is are the numbers set by marketing at least consistent? My experience on past Optoma budget projectors H30, H31 was that every one I did was inconsistent firmwares - forget just having inconsistent lamps.

Which is why I press people to understand how they are tweaking and what changes they are making. Now you don't need to take my advice and that is fine, I post for those that do and thank me in PM not those who flame me in public. But the ColorBars trick is one that even most professional calibrators don't know. So take that for what it is worth.
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post #50 of 2474
10/4/06 at 11:16am
my toshiba HD-DVD player has 2 settings that im not sure where to set for the HD70 projector. i use the HD70/HD-DVD player strictly for viewing DVD/HD-DVD movies via HDMI.

the 2 settings in question:

1. "Enhanced Black Level" -- to display deeper, richer black than in 'off' setting. on -or- off.

2. "Picture Mode" -- Film or Video or Auto. Film- the player converts film content pictures in the progressive output format appropriately. suitable for playback of film content pictures. Video- the player filters video signal, and converts it in the progressive ouptut format appropriately. suitable for playback of video content pictures. Auto- select this position normally. the player automatically detects source content, film or video, of playback source, and converts that signal in the progressive output format in an appropriate method.
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post #51 of 2474
10/4/06 at 11:24am
Enhanced Black Level is a misnamed control. It lowers the black point from 7.5 IRE to 0IRE (or digital 16 to 0). In one mode or the other it may cut off the blacker than black signal - which properly calibrated you are not supposed to see. So the only benefit is whichever mode lets you see that blacker than black signal during calibration so you can dial it away. In general with digital signals you want to preserve what is on the media - which is digital 16 is black - the reason is DVI/HDMI is only 8 bits and you start banding the signal if you adjust it down to zero at the source. Do that adjustment at the projector so black is black. So for HDMI I would suspect off means Black=16 which is correct.

But sometimes these controls only work on analog - not digital ports! Chris Wiggles has a .sig guide on the black level mess - find that and you will know more than you need to know. And sometimes these controls are named in Japanenglish - which means they work backwards from how you would think.


There is no such thing as "Enhanced Black" in a picture - that is a marketing name in other words - all it means is what level they will set the black to that you will try to match when you calibrate.

Your second is controlling the deinterlacer on the player. If you start noticing jaggies or flickering - then try the other setting. The reason it is there is that Auto will sometimes fail to lockon if the original source is film rate or video rate - which requires different processing algorithms. So they punt and basically are asking you if it looks bad - then change it. Some DVD's are poorly mastered and cause the deinterlacer confusion thus the controls!
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post #52 of 2474
10/4/06 at 11:38am
Kraz...can you go over that colorbars thing one more time for the idiots among us?
(like...me)

When adjusting for colors you pull Gain or Bias or both for each primary (R, G, B)
???
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post #53 of 2474
10/4/06 at 12:05pm
Gain only - use the 100% colorbars pattern not the 75% colorbars pattern. And this will only work with RGB sources that tint is known correct! Component might work if tint on source/display is correct - but you don't know if it is not. By using the RGB source you put the color decoder on the source rather than the display - and just hope it is correct. Other than some screwy HTPC video card overlays - video RGB sources are usually right on tint. However I know that earlier Oppos where in fact not though - though current ones are.!


It helps if you have a CIE gamut triangle to understand the RGB to CMY color relationship - see my SP7210 review for examples. And if you don't know what colors Cyan, Magenta actually are - then you cannot get Blue balanced. Most people can get the Yellow figured - but Blue opposes Yellow and cannot impact it (much beyond the BlackBody curves curve)

Then once you think you have the colors correct go back to the greyscale bars and play with bias to try to even out the darks with the lights by eye.

I of course have gear so I use the greyscale patterns to calibrate, but I know how those patterns can fool the eye. Colors don't fool the eye as easy. I always blow away a calibration customer when I walk in and put up ColorBars and say - your greyscale is off - and they go how do you know you have not ever looked at GreyBars yet!
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post #54 of 2474
10/4/06 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

Gain only - use the 100% colorbars pattern not the 75% colorbars pattern.

Is this somewhere in Avia?

NEVERMIND..I'll find it

Quote:


people can get the Yellow figured - but Blue opposes Yellow and cannot impact it (much beyond the BlackBody curves curve)

..head...hurting...

Quote:


Then once you think you have the colors correct go back to the greyscale bars and play with bias to try to even out the darks with the lights by eye.

Ok. Thanks for the clarification.....
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post #55 of 2474
10/4/06 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by though View Post

my toshiba HD-DVD player has 2 settings that im not sure where to set for the HD70 projector. i use the HD70/HD-DVD player strictly for viewing DVD/HD-DVD movies via HDMI.

the 2 settings in question:

1. "Enhanced Black Level" -- to display deeper, richer black than in 'off' setting. on -or- off.

2. "Picture Mode" -- Film or Video or Auto. Film- the player converts film content pictures in the progressive output format appropriately. suitable for playback of film content pictures. Video- the player filters video signal, and converts it in the progressive ouptut format appropriately. suitable for playback of video content pictures. Auto- select this position normally. the player automatically detects source content, film or video, of playback source, and converts that signal in the progressive output format in an appropriate method.

I own the Tosh HD DVD player: Enhanced black has no effect, either over HDMI or component. It does, I understand, in s-video, but who would use that?!

I've had no problem with jaggies using the 'auto' mode, but I use the Tosh's 720p mode to pixel match with my HD72. I'm debating whether to get anothe Tosh for the HD70. If anyone knows of a bargain, let me know
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post #56 of 2474
10/4/06 at 1:32pm
anyone have some settings for component? :O
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post #57 of 2474
10/4/06 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post

Is this somewhere in Avia?

NEVERMIND..I'll find it


..head...hurting...



Ok. Thanks for the clarification.....


A good calibrator always has his AVIA handy! Unless of course he forgot and left it with last customer - who then thinks AVIA is free with calibration.

The colorbars are the one in the training video - but go to Advanced Calibration-> Basic Patterns ->Blue Bars. For sure the 100% bars are at Advanced->VideoTestPatterns->Color Adjustments->Special ColorBars->*100* - maybe the ones in the video are the 75% bars....
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post #58 of 2474
10/4/06 at 4:41pm
Right, the blue bars for adjusting Tint/COlor, before the color decoder check.....ok.

The full 100IRE colorbars I'll go hunting for......
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post #59 of 2474
10/4/06 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tattootearz View Post

Im really looking for some calibration numbers on the D-Sub VGA input... would one of you be interested in tackling that?

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post #60 of 2474
10/4/06 at 6:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by [H]RedDog View Post

Its the screen. Hang your white screen back up.

Wow you're the only one having color and black level problems.

I think you're all way off on the graywolf and a ceiling mounted PJ. I'm using that combination right now. The graywolf is 1.8 in the cone and lets say 1.0 if you ceiling mount. The HD70 is too bright for reference HT levels in the cone. What I get with the ceiling mount is an awesome HT black level. Everybody thinks they're being jipped when they stand up and the image is brighter. You're not getting jipped. You're actually better off ceiling mounted the picture is closer to reference levels. Revel in the blacks boys. This PJ has no problem showing dark black in my setup.

106" 1.0 gain screen equals 700lumens in bright mode, 560lumens in econo.
In econo you're I'm still at 17ft lamberts still much too high for HT reference of 12ftlamberts but acceptable. You want bright you got it and don't even know it.

Don't stand up and think you're getting jipped, it's actually the opposite.

Here's a tip, if your blacks look on the crushed side try Video Gamma.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP › HD70 Tweakers Thread.