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What was Panasonic thinking? (PT-AX100 pricing) - Page 2  

post #31 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTyson

This should put the ridiculous pricing of the AX100U into perspective, but maybe not. :)
The only thing ridiculous is somehow you think it is overpriced. I do agree that you should probably invest in a new camera because that shot does not look all that impressive. :)
post #32 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangc
People are buying the PT-AX100 so they must think it is worth it...
People were buying the Sony Ruby for 10K too, now they're running for the hills trying to unload them to get Pearls at much less. Times and prices are changing.

'Just because some people are buying them' doesn't mean much.
post #33 of 98
Ok, turn on your lights. Now comment on how "bright" your screen is. The screen, while useful for rejecting ambient light, cannot overcome physics -- you need lumens. I personally feel that the price for the Panasonic is perfectly fine and by the time I buy will be many hundreds less. I'm willing to pay more for lumens than you are, apparently. That's fine -- that's what makes the world go around.
post #34 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctviggen
Ok, turn on your lights. Now comment on how "bright" your screen is. The screen, while useful for rejecting ambient light, cannot overcome physics -- you need lumens. I personally feel that the price for the Panasonic is perfectly fine and by the time I buy will be many hundreds less. I'm willing to pay more for lumens than you are, apparently. That's fine -- that's what makes the world go around.
If what you're looking for is lumens the Optoma EP1690 can be had for $1499 with a 2yr warranty from forum sponsors (and maybe less elsewhere) and claims a whopping 2500 lumens.
EP1690
post #35 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiBz
People were buying the Sony Ruby for 10K too, now they're running for the hills trying to unload them to get Pearls at much less. Times and prices are changing.

'Just because some people are buying them' doesn't mean much.
And before that people paid $30K for a Qualia..... So now let me just put this in perspective. A $10k projector that now is $5k vs. a $2k projector that will be selling for $1500 in the near future....hmmm

I will not fuel this anylonger....this thread should be shut down.

I think we can spend our money how we want can't we?
post #36 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC
Hey Art, when do you think you'll post the HD1000 review? I'm looking forward to that. I'm also very interested in the HD70. The HD1000 only has a 1 year warranty though. I don't like that.
The HD1000 will probably post Wed, or Thurs. The HD1000 also has only a 1 year warranty. -art
post #37 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe
I saw the 100 at Cedia and the only difference I saw between it and my 900 was the brightness. If you have a good room, I say get the 900. Also, you can get the 900 from Costco which is a huge advantage with there service policy.

As far as the Pearl, it is clearly in a different league from what I have seen of it compared to the Panny's. Like I said, I own the 900 and I saw the Pearl at Cedia on a verry similar size/type screen to the one I have my 900 on at home. There is simply no comparison. For one, no VB on the Pearl which is huge in my mind. Both my 900 and the 100 I saw had the same VB, and it is distracting to me.

Art, did you notice any vertical banding (VB) on the AX100 ? I had seen this on the AE900 which was one of the reasons I stayed away from it and got the HD72 instead.

Thanks
post #38 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiBz
If what you're looking for is lumens the Optoma EP1690 can be had for $1499 with a 2yr warranty from forum sponsors (and maybe less elsewhere) and claims a whopping 2500 lumens.
EP1690
I reviewed the 1690 recently and the AX100. The two were very similar in lumen output. The 1690 also has a 2X wheel, so far more people will notice rainbows.

With HT projectors like the new Panny in brightness, its going to be harder to rationalize biz projectors that aren't appreciably brighter.
post #39 of 98
OK, so let me get this straight, the AX100 with two year warranty is 30% more expensive than the HD72 but not nearly as good and also not nearly as good as the HD70, which is apparently nearly identical to the HD72 but only 50% of the cost. What was Optoma thinking when the priced the nearly identical HD70 more than the HD72? What about the mitsubishi 3000, is it possible that the AX100 can hold a candle to this formidable opponent? The answer is easy....hell no. Because you can have 3000 + screen + imx lens or two projectors (one from column A 3000 and one from column B 4805, HD70).

Now it makes sense. The AX-100 is ridiculously priced and panasonic has no faith in their pj or else they would have offered more than a one year warranty. Something must be wrong with this pj. Projector Central and Projectorreviews must be dizzy from RBE to have given this ripoff pj good reviews.

But seriously, hopefully everyone can find a projector that fits their needs. But arguing whether one projector is "worthy" of its price is a futile practice.

All one has to do is look around the forum to see people paying full price at release for av equipment such as qualia, marantz, anthem, b&w, stewart, vantage and so forth. Are all of these products "worthy" of their price and priced "appropriately" by their respective companies? Who knows. Who cares. People are free to spend their money in any way they see fit. The early adopters represent the passion and enthusiasm that makes this forum a great place to visit. This forum would be a very boring place if it was filled with budget hunters waiting for prices to come down on the latest and greatest! (BTW I include myself in this budget hunter group)

In regards to the AX100's price....it appears that the increased MAP is consistent with how they have priced previous generations of this projector, I don't think this represents anything sinister or crazy on the part of Panasonic. Remember the AX100 is the latest in a long line of popular lcd projectors (ae500, ae700, ae900). Each one representing an upgrade in features or design over the previous model. On the other hand the Optoma projectors tend to have less in the way of new features and/or design compared to the outstanding H79/H78DC3.

Sorry for the sarcastic opening but there are two posters going around trying in vain to stir the pot. Neither have actually seen the projector so they have resorted to calling out Panasonic's pricing policy. I am sure that once they see the actual pj they will be the first to post about the horrific VB and claim that rainbows, SDE and keystoning are much, much, much better options given the excellent ansi contrast of their pjs!
post #40 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoodo
I do agree that you should probably invest in a new camera because that shot does not look all that impressive. :)
I think they look pretty good for being shot with a 480i CAMCORDER in low light set to 1/15th shutter speed (which lowers the resolution, adds tons of grain but sees the image better). To be able to see the image good enough to take a halfway decent screenshot I had to put the shutter at 1/15th which takes away from the sharpness and adds grain (and I had to run the picture through a degrain blurring filter to smooth it out; Losing some more sharpness). The camcorder also doesn't see colors or dynamic range as good as human eyes or good digital cameras, but for a camcorder it did what it was supposed to do; It took a screenshot that gives you a good idea of the massive size and that the pj puts out good brightness even on a huge screen in low lamp mode on a matte pale gray wall (and it's much brighter in person).

You are damn right about needing a better camera though, because I have to use a 720x480i camcorder and it is terrible in low light which means I have to be skilled to get the shots to look as good as they do. It shoots beautiful footage with lots and lots of light, but not in low light (which is required for screenshots, obviously), so those shots are as good as it can do and a camcorder also does not have the dynamic range of a good camera. The images appear a lot brighter in person, so perhaps you can use your imagination. :D

My camcorder may not be the best for taking screenshots, but the subject was about brightness and I used the screenshots and information to illustrate a point. Here, I will illustrate another point using my camcorder in a bit higher ambient light:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...y-5-(4805).gif

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...y-3-(4805).gif

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...y-7-(4805).gif

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...d-7-(4805).gif

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...-17-(4805).gif

What is my point? The screen matters more than extra lumens.



Quote:
The only thing ridiculous is somehow you think it is overpriced.
If you think that is ridiculous explain to me how it's not ridiculous that a non D6 LCD costs more as much as:

1: One Mitsubishi HC3000U 720p DLP + Anamorphic Lens (much higher vertical resolution with 1080i/p HD Material): AX100U costs MORE than this combo

2: One Mitsubishi HC3000U + One Infocus 4805 or Optoma H31: AX100U costs about the Same

3: Two 720p Optoma HD70 DLPs: AX100U costs about the same or a bit more.

4: One Mitsubishi HC3000U 720p DLP + IMX Lens + Anamorphic lens: AX100U costs about the same

5: One highend DarkChip3 720p DLP: AX100U costs about the same.

The AX100U should be $1499 max and even that is kind of pushing it considering that you can get the HC3000U for nearly $50 less. The crappy warranty alone makes the AX100U overrpriced. If your craps out after a year I'm sure you'd agree. Of course this is all just my personal opinion, but the point above should be pretty convincing.

The AX100U is making the HC3000u and the HD70 look like mind blowing deals. :)
post #41 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctviggen
Ok, turn on your lights. Now comment on how "bright" your screen is. The screen, while useful for rejecting ambient light, cannot overcome physics -- you need lumens. I personally feel that the price for the Panasonic is perfectly fine and by the time I buy will be many hundreds less. I'm willing to pay more for lumens than you are, apparently. That's fine -- that's what makes the world go around.

The first screenshot was on a matte surface very pale gray (looks white) wall (not a screen) with one light on in the same room (but shaded to keep direct light off of the screen). However, I could still read a book in the room (the Spiderman shot).

Now, why don't you kindly check out my screenshots above. :D
post #42 of 98
If you think that is ridiculous explain to me how it's not ridiculous that a non D6 LCD costs more as much as:

1: One Mitsubishi HC3000U 720p DLP + Anamorphic Lens (much higher vertical resolution with 1080i/p HD Material): AX100U costs MORE than this combo

2: One Mitsubishi HC3000U + One Infocus 4805 or Optoma H31: AX100U costs about the Same

3: Two 720p Optoma HD70 DLPs: AX100U costs about the same or a bit more.

4: One Mitsubishi HC3000U 720p DLP + IMX Lens + Anamorphic lens: AX100U costs about the same

5: One highend DarkChip3 720p DLP: AX100U costs about the same.

The AX100U should be $1499 max and even that is kind of pushing it considering that you can get the HC3000U for nearly $50 less. The crappy warranty alone makes the AX100U overrpriced. If your craps out after a year I'm sure you'd agree. Of course this is all just my personal opinion, but the point above should be pretty convincing.

The AX100U is making the HC3000u and the HD70 look like mind blowing deals. :)[/quote]

I need a projector that can sit on a shelf 6 feet above the floor 16 feet from a 45x80 screen. Which of these projectors will work for me?
post #43 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by karlsch

I need a projector that can sit on a shelf 6 feet above the floor 16 feet from a 45x80 screen. Which of these projectors will work for me?
Obviously the AX100U until we know more about the new DarkChip3 DLPs.

The argument wasn't whether some people would require the AX100U over other units or not; It was about the AX100U being ridicuously priced given the price of other units. So, clearly you may not feel it is overpriced since it may be your only choice, but there were plenty of people who once bought 720p LCDs to save money from buying a really expensive DLP and now to save money you get a DLP. I think I must have slipped into some bizarro reality. :D
post #44 of 98
The AX100 will street much lower in a few months. Rainbows rule out all single chip DLPs for me. And your 4805 is pants with HD ;)
post #45 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTyson
Obviously the AX100U until we know more about the new DarkChip3 DLPs.

The argument wasn't whether some people would require the AX100U over other units or not; It was about the AX100U being ridicuously priced given the price of other units. So, clearly you may not feel it is overpriced since it may be your only choice, but there were plenty of people who once bought 720p LCDs to save money from buying a really expensive DLP and now to save money you get a DLP. I think I must have slipped into some bizarro reality. :D
The only reason why the beloved DLP's are anywhere near the price they are now is because of the competition they've been given by the lowly LCD's.

There are many reasons why people will choose a projector, you take into account your needs and you find a projector, not a technology that meets them.

Blind technology bashing is just gradeschool. Take a moment to remove Texas Instruments sack from your mouth, or Infocus or Panasonics or whatever, and acknowledge that people are gonna find a projector that suits them, and that may be differrent from what suits you.
post #46 of 98
I am one of the "idiots" whobought the "overpriced" AX100 (arriving tomorrow).

- 106" screen from 17 feet back and 6 feet up - rules out all the cheaper DLPs
- The ONLY DLPs I could have used if I reconfigured and had a throw of 15' were all substantially more expensive than the AX100.
- I really liked the Epson 400, but again the throw was just slightly short, and I was worried about SDE
- An AE900 would have saved me $700, but I liked the updated PQ and lumens of the AX100 - Have a light controlled room, but supports lower gain larger screen, better when the lamp dims and when I moved the projector somewhere else in the house when upgrade to 1080p in two years.

In my (non-expert) opinion the prices are so low now that the features have a much higher impact on total price than the used to. Back when prices were at the $3k plus level, a $500 difference did not seem that much. Now someone (one person I think) start saying something is overpriced by comparing PJs with VASTLY different features. Hey - maybe next time I will buy a car without AC - could save me some money there!

When I started bulding my HT 14 months ago, I thought I would be spending $4,000 on a projector. Tormorrow I am receiving a better projector for half the price. Now that is progress! Maybe I should cancel my order and wait three months and save another couple of hundred dollars on the AX100 (or get something else). Or maybe wait six months... Or a year..... Nah - I am thrilled with the projector I got and the price I paid. Not even sure why I am bothering adding to this thread.

How about suggesting plusses and minusses for different projectors, or "this a good deal, because...". The current tirade of "Panasonic is overpriced" is just an insult to others people intelligence.
post #47 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by guptown
I am sure that once they see the actual pj they will be the first to post about the horrific VB and claim that rainbows, SDE and keystoning are much, much, much better options given the excellent ansi contrast of their pjs!
Check out MTyson's room. With the light coloured walls, I would be surprised if the room could support an ANSI contrast of more than 100:1 which any digital projector is capable of.
post #48 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by MONEYFANOTHING
Easy, Im looking to replace an hs10 too.Just bought a new bulb.Looking to upgrade and the Ax seems to fit the bill.Sony has been great to me but feeling time for a change.

I just made this swap 3 days ago, and I'm thrilled....I was fine with a $2k price.....seems very reasonable...

I highly recommend this as a HS10 replacement (so far)
post #49 of 98
On the whole "who would PAY that?" topic, a word of appreciation may be in order for the early adopters who jumped into the AE700 at it's original asking price of around $2000. It was their early and eager enthusiasm for a product that finally reached a certain confluence of quality, features and price that helped immeasurably to pave the way for the AE900 (naturally), the AX100 and for ALL of their LCD and DLP competitors to matter-of-factly INCLUDE most or all of those features along with ever-falling prices.

While waiting for years for the illusive all-in-one product , many of us were howling for features such as non-distracting noise levels, a wide range of zoom and lens shift options, rear-shelf mountability, plenty of lumens to accommodate reasonable levels of ambient light, longer lamp life, elimination of SDE, HDMI readiness and widescreen native resolution at a price that wouldn't break the bank.

The immediate cash-flows into Panasonic's coffers on the introduction of the AE700 told the industry everything it needed to know about the importance of those features IN ADDITION to a beautiful image quality. Consequently, it is rare that a product is introduced for HT consumers that doesn't automatically include most of those features...at ever falling prices.

I encourage appreciation for early adopters immodestly because, in the case of the AE700, I was one of them. :o

Moreover, I understood exactly what I was doing at the time with regard to paying the earlier and higher price while assuming a higher risk of buying an untested lemon, and posted as such on this site at the time.

I think most early adopters know we are not only finally getting what we'd been asking for but we are also contributing to the early adopter legacy of encouraging MORE of what we'd been asking for FASTER by quickly rewarding those who delivered on it "firstest and bestest".

No benefit dinners and honorariums are necessary for me though... :D . I had a lot of fun with my AE700, now enjoying an AE900 even more.

But I do want to thank those who are jumping into the AX100 immediately at today's price because they are the ones who are, at this very moment, encouraging better PJs at lower cost in the nearer and nearer future. In a few years, I'll be buying a replacement for my AE900 that I know will be AT LEAST as good as the AX100 is reported to be but at only a fraction of the cost of the AX100 today. And the early adopters who are flooding the vendors with AX100 orders at today's price are responsible for that in a big way.
post #50 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by HenrikDK
I am one of the "idiots" whobought the "overpriced" AX100 (arriving tomorrow).
Henrik, I don't think you're an idiot in the least. You made a great choice in PJ and I'm sure you'll enjoy it. :)
post #51 of 98
VERY happy to help!! :p ;)
post #52 of 98
I'm a happy idiot too.... :)
post #53 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by guptown
Sorry for the sarcastic opening but there are two posters going around trying in vain to stir the pot. Neither have actually seen the projector so they have resorted to calling out Panasonic's pricing policy. I am sure that once they see the actual pj they will be the first to post about the horrific VB and claim that rainbows, SDE and keystoning are much, much, much better options given the excellent ansi contrast of their pjs!
Gup, I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but I think you're taking things a little too personaly which I can't understand unless of course you're a panny dealer or the CEO of Panny himself (none of which I believe to be the case).

These forums are for discussing and exchanging ideas and yes sometimes people will get heated and too involved. More often than not people will have differing opinions on things, that's life. It makes my opinion no less valid than yours and I respect your opinion and the right to have one.

Based on your comments, we should either be on the Panny cheerleading squad and only say positive things or we must have hidden agendas of wanting to stir the pot. Don't you see how silly that is ?

The main topic of this thread is, has Panny priced the AX100 model in line with what else can be had for same or nearly the same dollar. Not so horrible. There will be people that think that it is and some that don't. So what ?

Just because we don't agree doesn't mean we can't get along or have to acuse each other of some sinister plot, at least not in my point of view.

If you've purchased an AX100, then I'm happy for you and I hope you enjoy every minute of it. :)

Your fellow AV brother
MiBz
post #54 of 98
Botton line, any product is worth what people are willing to pay for it.

In the projector world everyone has their own objectives, regardless of DLP vs. LCD vs. LCOS.
Much of it comes down to room characteristics, screen size etc. Within each technology preference there are variables such as light output, mounting options, throw distance, projector inputs etc. that can override any other consideration.

If you look at the latest offerings across the three technologies listed above, each one has its strengths and weaknesses. I personally believe the Sony Ruby/Pearl has a phenominal image, provided you can use minimum throw and can handle the relatively low light output with an appropriate screen choice/size. If your environment can not accomodate this, it wouldn't matter whether it was $1000 or $10000. So effectively there is no 'best' projector in the $2000 category, as it all depends on your own needs.

Just my 2c
post #55 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diarmuid
And your 4805 is pants with HD ;)
Never heard that term used, but I think I have an idea of what it means. :) It does surprisingly well with HD, but I should let you know that I also have two CRT front projectors. :D
post #56 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott B
Check out MTyson's room. With the light coloured walls, I would be surprised if the room could support an ANSI contrast of more than 100:1 which any digital projector is capable of.

You have a point about the light colored walls, but my screen is is a super high gain angular reflective Torus (curved horizontally and vertically) and it's good enough to reject a 500-watt work light directed at it suprisingly well, so it can handle minor reflections off of a light colored wall. :D


Yes, that is a 500-watt halogen work light pointed right at the screen and a 60-watt a few feet above.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...d-7-(4805).gif

My screen improves ANSI contrast with light colored walls as well as ambient light contrast and brightness.


BTW, to the guys putting "idiot" in quotes. Please do not put words in my mouth. If you're going to put things in quotes like you're quoting me do not quote personal insults I've never said. I never said or thought anyone here was an idiot for wanting to buy or actually buying the AX100U, despite the fact that I think the AX100U is overrpriced. Quote me on the "overpriced" part, but please do not quote insults I never said or thought. :cool: One more thing I want to set straight. I have nothing against the AX100U or its quality, just its price tag.

Honestly, if it's as good as they say and if I couldn't see vertical banding I might even be interested in it if I didn't find it overpriced.
post #57 of 98
I predict this projector will be a horrible failure because it is so "ridiculously overpriced".

Panasonic will have egg on their faces and they will cry because you picked on them.

Yeah right.

DE
post #58 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by dedwards
I predict this projector will be a horrible failure because it is so "ridiculously overpriced".

Panasonic will have egg on their faces and they will cry because you picked on them.

Yeah right.

DE

I totally didn't get the sarcasm until you said "Yeah Right". :rolleyes: Thanks for making it clear for me. :p One can only hope that is what will come to be. :)
post #59 of 98
Whether the AX100 is over priced will be determined only by one thing:

The consumers.

If lots of people buy it, then it is not overpriced. Why would Panasonic lower the price if people are willing to pay? If Panasonic is wrong, the price will drop. Simple economics. I believe the AX100 will sell well. Look at the reviews at PJC and Projectorreviews, they will help sell the AX100.

I don't buy blanket statements like HC3000, HD72, [insert DLP pj here] is obviously better tha AX100. I think HD70 is great, too. But to people with set up issues, ambient light issues it is not obvious. I would like a HD70 myself. However my basement cannot deal with its set up limitations. Set up flexibility is a huge issue for a lot of people. Not every one has a room you can do anything to and I am not going to claim that AX100, AE900 is obviously better than HD70 or HD 70 just cut corners to save $$$. Each has its merits and the consumers will deside.

The street price of AX100 will get lower even more soon. It is already significantly lowered than MSRP just by checking the listed price on the sponsored sites here.

I personally don't think it is "rediculously over priced." Different brand has different pricing policies. If you look at the list price of Infocus products, that is more "rediculous". However, the real price is different.

But each is entitled to his/her own opinion.

Ben
post #60 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojosdad
However my basement cannot deal with its set up limitations.
Ben
The one thing I find amazing is that people are willing to pay $1,000 more for a projector rather than use Keystone even though people can't seem to see a difference even when using it with some units (and it's said to be that way with the HD70). I'll never understand that. That is a lot of extra money to spend and the only way I'd part with it is if the extra quality was a big jump (like DarkChip 3 level jump) or if there was no way I could find away to make a cheaper DLP work (and there is a way in most cases).

I personally had gone a long time without ever trying keystone with my X1 or 4805. Recently though I tried it with my 4805 see what all the fuss was about. I paused a DVD at 13-14 feet wide, walked up close to the screen and adjusted the keystone back and forth and saw zero difference in picture quality. This surprised me considering how many act like keystone is the devil, and maybe it is on SOME units, but definitely not all. If a person's main concern is video/film the HD70 would probably work well with almost any setup.
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