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Does Theta Digital's Failure to Have HDMI Impact Whether You Want to Buy??? - Page 2  

post #31 of 620
Sorry if I'm slow.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Steve,

However, if a disc is authored in advanced content mode then to support that functionality the player is going to decode the audio formats internally and as such will not spit out audio in bitstream mode. All HD-DVDs so far have been authored as Advanced Content.

Are you saying that if it is authored for adv content, then it can't do it period or it can but only if user opts out of the adv content?

Thanks mike
post #32 of 620
Mike,

As far as I know if the disc is authored for advanced content the player is going to decode the audio internally and spit the audio out as MCH LPCM over HDMI. I don't think there is any sort of opting out available to the user.

Realistically this is no big deal. Decoding performed in the player vs. decoding in the pre-pro is not going to be different. Most pre-pros are just going to use off the shelf chips to do the decoding... just like what the players are going to do. And it wasn't mentioned in this thread but another advantage of decoding in the player and using LPCM over HDMI (like v1.1 gives you) is it is sort of forward compatible. If a new format comes out once a player comes out that supports it and decoded it interally you could plug that into your HDMI v1.1 pre-pro and get that format in full resolution without any sort of upgrade to the pre-pro.

Shawn
post #33 of 620
That is a good question, Mike. But to be honest the fact that advanced content exists, and HD-DVD players have to support it, means that the decoding capability has to be there, even if you don't use it.

So why not use it? Look, Steve is raving about the analog sound quality of the Toshiba HD-DVD player piped through his system. This would not be possible if it were doing an imperfect job of decoding. So if Theta implements HDMI 1.1, he'll get even better results than the ones he is quite happy with now, if we reasonably assume that his Theta DACs are better than the Toshiba's. And HDMI 1.3 would not improve it further.
post #34 of 620
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Mike,

As far as I know if the disc is authored for advanced content the player is going to decode the audio internally and spit the audio out as MCH LPCM over HDMI. I don't think there is any sort of opting out available to the user.

Realistically this is no big deal. Decoding performed in the player vs. decoding in the pre-pro is not going to be different. Most pre-pros are just going to use off the shelf chips to do the decoding... just like what the players are going to do. And it wasn't mentioned in this thread but another advantage of decoding in the player and using LPCM over HDMI (like v1.1 gives you) is it is sort of forward compatible. If a new format comes out once a player comes out that supports it and decoded it interally you could plug that into your HDMI v1.1 pre-pro and get that format in full resolution without any sort of upgrade to the pre-pro.

Shawn

Ok. Now I get it. Assume all HD DVDs and Blue Ray ocntinue to have Advanced Content. The digital bitstream of Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby True HD will not work over HDMI to be decoded to LPCM in the surround processor. But the player
will decode, transmit the LPCM digitally over HDMI, and then the surround processor will apply digital parameters like crossovers, bass management, etc. and also convert to analog. COOL.
post #35 of 620
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

That is a good question, Mike. But to be honest the fact that advanced content exists, and HD-DVD players have to support it, means that the decoding capability has to be there, even if you don't use it.

So why not use it? Look, Steve is raving about the analog sound quality of the Toshiba HD-DVD player piped through his system. This would not be possible if it were doing an imperfect job of decoding. So if Theta implements HDMI 1.1, he'll get even better results than the ones he is quite happy with now, if we reasonably assume that his Theta DACs are better than the Toshiba's. And HDMI 1.3 would not improve it further.

I fully agree. So there is clearly a sonic advantage for Theta to implement HDMI sooner than later!!!
post #36 of 620
Thread Starter 
Below is an interesting post made at Secrets of Home Theater forum on
9-21-06 re HDMI:

In discussion with some industry engineers, I found that there are some problems popping up with the adaptation of the new HDMI standard. Here is what was discussed:

(1) Some cable TV boxes with HDMI out are not delivering any picture to displays with HDMI inputs.

(2) The current HDMI plug appears not to be as sturdy as anticipated, and there may be a change next year in the design of the plug, and the new plug would not fit in current HDMI sockets.

(3) If you have an HDMI source such as a DVD player, and connect it to your display via HDMI, you may not be able to get 5.1 digital bitstreams to come out of the coaxial or Toslink digital output of the player at the same time as digital video and audio out of the HDMI output.

(4) HDMI is a two-way digital communication, and some displays send a handshake signal to the DVD player that permanently messes up the player's ability to output digital video through its HDMI jack.

(5) HDMI v 1.1 is already hitting the shelves, with v 1.2 on the way, and v 1.3 in the next couple of years (v 1.3 will deliver higher res 5.1 digital audio). What will be the backward compatibility of these versions?

In my own situation, using a DirecTV satellite box with HDMI out to an LCD TV with HDMI in, when I turn off the TV, the satellite box crashes. I have to unplug the satellite box and then plug it back in. I have not solved this problem, except by switching to some other input besides HDMI before turning the TV off. Then, when I turn the TV back on, I switch to the HDMI input for viewing.

I will try and get some engineers to input possible answers to these problems here in the forum.

Editor

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Last edited by Admin : 09-21-2005 at 03:14 PM.
post #37 of 620
Thread Starter 
Here's another interesting post made 9-19-06 on the Secrets website re HDMI:

This is likely to be my final post here for now, since most of the questions and arguments seem to be going around in circles. However I just wanted to clarify a few points. First though I'd like to qualify my answers by explaining that I am an extremely experienced video equipment design engineer with nearly 20 years experience of monitor, display, display electronics and image processing design, so hopefully I know what I'm on about!

- - - - -

What you guys should really be getting worked up about is the forthcoming requirement for you to all use HDMI due to the HMDI-HDCP encryption on Blu-ray and HD-DVD devices. This is far more serious as an industry issue since: the licensing rules mandate that HDMI-HDCP inputs only come out as HDMI-HDCP outputs.

Why is this so serious? Let me explain:

i) HMDI is only an 8-bit system whereas most video processors are 10-bit in and out (Vantage-HD is 16-bit internally to ensure rounding errors don't occur during data processing). So no analog outputs means loss of detail, quantization errors, inability to do very fine colour temperature correction (so user programmable colour correction becomes pointless), inability to do very fine gamma correction (so user programmable gamma correction also becomes pointless). Also, HDMI displays dictate the supported output mode to their driving device, so programmable output modes become irrelevant, they are also irrelevant because HDMI does not use H & V syncs anyway, it uses strictly defined modes with embedded data enable (blanking) signals so does not lend itself to user-programmability whatsoever.


ii) HDMI uses a poor quality connector with no positive locking mechanism and basic contacts which tend to make very bad contact with time, generating noise, data errors and loss of connection.

iii) Most seriously - HDMI rules mandate that the audio be passed through as HDMI too. But, they also mandate that the number of audio channels passed be dictated by the display device. Oops. Did someone screw up here? Perhaps - since connecting a plasma with 2 channel audio will, if the HDMI rules are adhered to, mandate that your new Blu-ray or HD-DVD player only outputs 2-channel audio. Yes, I know lots of you will say I am wrong, but go read the rules, I'm right, and I'm rightly worried about this.

iv) HDMI audio is presently limited to 96KHz whereas normal SPDIF or Toslink (optical) audio is 192KHz, so HDMI audio has to be more heavily compressed, or use fewer bits - hence lower audio quality.

v) There is NO option of using HDMI audio into a processor such as Vanatage-HD then using SPDIF/Toslink out since the HDMI/HDCP rules mandate that we can be fined up to $8M if we give you that very useful feature.

So really what I am trying to say is that you home theater guys have far more to worry about than whether Vantage-HD has BNCs or an SVGA connector since the people driving the rules behind all the new source equipment due to come to market are about to force you to use an interconnection system whose video and audio capabilities are a backwards step from where you are now. These are the people who you really need to campaign against since they are the ones who are about to destroy all flexibility within your home theater systems.

P.S. That's all I'm going to say on this, I won't enter into discussions since as an HDMI and HDCP licencee I am very limited by their terms as to what I can say.

TimBrooksbank
post #38 of 620
Thread Starter 
From the above Secrets stuff, I am a bit confused and wonder why Theta would march into HDMI too soon. I'm sort of glad I've got the Six Shooter as it works great for me with no bugs at all.
post #39 of 620
Quote:
HDMI is only an 8-bit system whereas most video processors are 10-bit in and out

Actually, this is incorrect. HDMI is 8-bits only in 4:4:4 video mode. But most video material, including HD-DVD, has downsampled chroma (4:2:0 or 4:2:2), for which HDMI can provide up to 12 bits of resolution.

This is actually one of several errors and/or misconceptions in that post. I just took on the first because I don't have time for a longer post. Maybe Shawn can address the rest. Don't take anything in that post too seriously.
post #40 of 620
OK, I have time to address another one:
Quote:
There is NO option of using HDMI audio into a processor such as Vanatage-HD then using SPDIF/Toslink out since the HDMI/HDCP rules mandate that we can be fined up to $8M if we give you that very useful feature.

First of all, a source device is free to have SPDIF/Toslink outputs in parallel to HDMI. You all know this if you have HDMI-enabled source devices right now. In fact, I bought my folks an HDMI-out DVD player and ended up using the SPDIF output for audio.

But more importantly, this guy is confused about something rather critical: S/PDIF is incapable of carrying most of the high-resolution formats being used in HD-DVD now. In particular, there's no way it can carry uncompressed multichannel high-res PCM. S/PDIF goes up to 192kHz, but that's just two channel, not 8. You could do it with multiple ganged S/PDIF outputs I suppose.

So if HD-DVD and Blu-Ray were going to deliver high-resolution digital audio out, they were going to need a new transmission standard as it is. S/PDIF is simply can't do it. I suppose you could argue that they should have just developed S/PDIF++ and left the audio separate from the video; I certainly wouldn't have minded that. But you'd still be swapping out your processor either way.
post #41 of 620
"So there is clearly a sonic advantage for Theta to implement HDMI sooner than later!!!"

Yes, you could then actually use your expensive pre-pro and DACs as something more then a glorified remote control for a $2k analog pre-amp then.

". But, they also mandate that the number of audio channels passed be dictated by the display device. Oops. Did someone screw up here?"

Yes, the author of this post. If a device is ahead of the display like a receiver or pre-pro it can alter the displays EDID with regards to the number of audio channels supported and then simply strip out the audio when it gets there.

"iv) HDMI audio is presently limited to 96KHz whereas normal SPDIF or Toslink (optical) audio is 192KHz, so HDMI audio has to be more heavily compressed, or use fewer bits - hence lower audio quality."

Again wrong. S/PDIF on coax can do two channels of 192kHz, last time I looked it couldn't on Toslink but perhaps that has changed. But then HDMI can also transmit two channels of 192/24. HDMI also supports multi-channel. HDMI v1.0 can transport 8 channels of 96/24 *uncompressed* audio. S/PDIF can't, the only way S/PDIF can transmit 6 channels of audio is using bitstream lossy compressed formats like DD/DTS. Advantage... HDMI.

"v) There is NO option of using HDMI audio into a processor such as Vanatage-HD then using SPDIF/Toslink out since the HDMI/HDCP rules mandate that we can be fined up to $8M if we give you that very useful feature."

Same answer as iv above. A single S/PDIF connector can't transmit all the audio that can be transmitted in a HDMI stream. So from a technological standpoint this couldn't be done anyway. But then there is also copy protection concerns on top of this. This is exactly why I said the Valis is never going to support MCH audio over HDMI. They won't be allowed to spit the audio out over multiple S/PDIF connectors to the PowerDac.

Michael already corrected the 8 bit error.

You need to check your sources of info better. Just about everything in those posts was wrong.

Shawn
post #42 of 620
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

You need to check your sources of info better. Just about everything in those posts was wrong.
Shawn

Shawn and Michael, thanks for your help.However, as a lawyer in real life, and not having this expertise myself, may I suggest that how do I know that the information which you guys give is fully accurrate vs info given by others such as I posted from the Secrets forum who advise that they have excellent credentials and one could easily see what they say as knowledgable as well.k

Can you perhaps give us some web links for official info from HDMI manufacturing/industry itself discussing these issues? Thanks.
post #43 of 620
"may I suggest that how do I know that the information which you guys give is fully accurrate vs info given by others such as I posted from the Secrets forum who advise that they have excellent credentials and one could easily see what they say as knowledgable as well.k"


Anyone can claim they have excellent credentials. That guy is wrong about most of his post. So much for credentials.

Stop just looking for any posts by anyone on the net that is supporting your position and then running with them and instead learn this stuff yourself.

Then you will know who is correct.

For example if you wanted to learn about S/PDIF check out this page:

http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P1009.html

Read the AN022 document and the specs for that digital transmitter chip.

If you then want to compare that against what HDMI can carry WRT audio:

http://hdmi.org/

You will quickly find that the posts from some random guy with 'excellent credentials' is dead wrong about the audio capabilities of the two.

Shawn
post #44 of 620
Steve, I understand the dilemma. If you want to confirm independently just one thing, confirm this: that S/PDIF simply cannot carry the new advanced formats, which means you'll need a new digital connection of some sort to get the most out of them---whether it is HDMI or something new.

EDIT: One thing he said that I have heard independently is the displeasure with the HDMI connectors themselves. An installer at CES was complaining to the Marantz folks about it. I prefer the DVI connectors too. Yeah HDMI is easier to accidentally pull out, but it won't go anywhere on its own.
post #45 of 620
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post


Anyone can claim they have excellent credentials. That guy is wrong about most of his post. So much for credentials.

Stop just looking for any posts by anyone on the net that is supporting your position and then running with them and instead learn this stuff yourself.

Then you will know who is correct.

Shawn

Shawn, "supporting your postion" - I don't have any predetermined postion. I'm trying to learn about this.

I do appreciate your help. As you state, anyone can claim they have excellent credentials? What are your credentials? I am not asking this to impugn your integrity or knowledge, simply for my info as I try to assess what different folks say about HDMI. Thanks.
post #46 of 620
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

Steve, I understand the dilemma. If you want to confirm independently just one thing, confirm this: that S/PDIF simply cannot carry the new advanced formats, which means you'll need a new digital connection of some sort to get the most out of them---whether it is HDMI or something new.

EDIT: One thing he said that I have heard independently is the displeasure with the HDMI connectors themselves. An installer at CES was complaining to the Marantz folks about it. I prefer the DVI connectors too. Yeah HDMI is easier to accidentally pull out, but it won't go anywhere on its own.

One thing I've long known is that coax and toslink do not have the bandwith to carry the new advanced formats. That's why my Toshiba HD-XA1 takes Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby True HD and digitally converts to DTS at 1.5 mbs, although these formats have higher capabilities than that. That is apparently why using the HD DVD player's multi-channel analog outputs via my Six Shooter sounds better than via toslink or coaxial.
post #47 of 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

One thing I've long known is that coax and toslink do not have the bandwith to carry the new advanced formats.

Bandwidth is sometimes not the issue as much as permission. If S/PDIF can transmit 6.1 channels of DTS at 1.5Mbps, then it has the bandwidth to do the same with Dolby Digital Plus at 1.5Mbps or 640kbps (which are the bitrates used so far for DD+ soundtracks). The problem is that S/PDIF is not allowed to transmit those signals for copy protection reasons. Just wanted to make sure you are clear on capability vs permissibility.

Sanjay
post #48 of 620
Steve,

"I do appreciate your help. As you state, anyone can claim they have excellent credentials? What are your credentials?"

Makes no difference what they are. What is important is if what I posted is accurate or not.

Comparing credentials is pointless. Comparing accurate info vs. inaccurate info is far more important.

"One thing I've long known is that coax and toslink do not have the bandwith to carry the new advanced formats."

And you also know HDMI can pass those formats in their decoded state with HDMI v1.1. The decoded bandwidth is much greater then when the formats were compressed, that is the whole point of why they are compressed in the first place, to save bandwidth/space. If HDMI can pass those advanced format in their uncompressed (large) state, and toslink/coax can't pass either even in their compressed (small) state.... what does this tell you?

It tells you that you know that HDMI has (much) more audio bandwidth then coax or toslink. Which further means you know the post above by the guy claiming coax/toslink has more audio bandwidth then HDMI is wrong.

Shawn
post #49 of 620
Sanjay,

"Bandwidth is sometimes not the issue as much as permission. If S/PDIF can transmit 6.1 channels of DTS at 1.5Mbps, then it has the bandwidth to do the same with Dolby Digital Plus at 1.5Mbps or 640kbps (which are the bitrates used so far for DD+ soundtracks)."

True, I didn't want to further muddy the waters with that yet though. I think S/PDIF technically has enough bandwidth to handle DD+ at its max bandwidth too. But only with the latest 192kHz receivers/transmitters.

S/PDIF does not however have enough bandwidth to transmit 8 channels of 96/24 audio. HDMI does.

Shawn
post #50 of 620
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"One thing I've long known is that coax and toslink do not have the bandwith to carry the new advanced formats."

And you also know HDMI can pass those formats in their decoded state with HDMI v1.1. The decoded bandwidth is much greater then when the formats were compressed, that is the whole point of why they are compressed in the first place, to save bandwidth/space. If HDMI can pass those advanced format in their uncompressed (large) state, and toslink/coax can't pass either even in their compressed (small) state.... what does this tell you?

It tells you that you know that HDMI has (much) more audio bandwidth then coax or toslink. Which further means you know the post above by the guy claiming coax/toslink has more audio bandwidth then HDMI is wrong.

Shawn

I don't disagree with you re the above. I posted that other info simply for discussion here, not necessarily saying all of the info was correct. And I'm
not necessarily saying that I "know" that everything you or someone else says here is correct, either.

Now you have said that the HDMI connectors will be the same for HDMI v.1.3

Yet I've read a number of places, including here at AVS, that due to instable connectors that they connectors may be revised. Do I know? Not really.
post #51 of 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

I didn't want to further muddy the waters with that yet though.

Understood. I just raised it so that Steve and others understood that even if S/PDIF had enough bandwidth, permission would still be denied. Copy protection is the biggest thing right now for digital interfaces, and also the cause of most of the greif.
Quote:
I think S/PDIF technically has enough bandwidth to handle DD+ at its max bandwidth too.

Wouldn't that be something like 6Mbps?
Quote:
S/PDIF does not however have enough bandwidth to transmit 8 channels of 96/24 audio.

True, though there was a rumor being floated for a while that a typical 5.1-channel 48kHz movie soundtrack could be losslessly compressed using TrueHD and fit through a S/PDIF connection. Maybe they'd have to truncate it to 16 bits, but that's being done already with TrueHD soundtracks on HD-DVD and uncompressed PCM soundtracks on Blu-ray discs. Not that the movie studios will allow lossless transmission through S/PDIF, but the thought was nice while it lasted.

Sanjay
post #52 of 620
Thanks for the info re: permissions, Sanjay...
post #53 of 620
Yer welcome Michael.

BTW, just out of curiosity, does anyone know what max bandwidth S/PDIF is capable of, assuming the latest transmitters/receivers?

Sanjay
post #54 of 620
No, I don't---in fact I was surprised to learn it could do 2 channels of 24/192. I thought it was limited to 2 channels of 24/96.
post #55 of 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

One thing I've long known is that coax and toslink do not have the bandwith to carry the new advanced formats. That's why my Toshiba HD-XA1 takes Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby True HD and digitally converts to DTS at 1.5 mbs, although these formats have higher capabilities than that. That is apparently why using the HD DVD player's multi-channel analog outputs via my Six Shooter sounds better than via toslink or coaxial.

Is this the case for all HD-DVDs or just the TrueHD encoded disks?
post #56 of 620
All HD DVDs. Most every disc I have played with DD+ shows up as DTS on my processor.

The cheaper HD-A1 does this as well.
post #57 of 620
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveN View Post

Is this the case for all HD-DVDs or just the TrueHD encoded disks?

I have found that all HD DVDs, even those Dolby Digital Plus, sound better for me using the HD DVD player to do the DA conversion, analog out to the Six Shooter.
I have compared this to using toslink from HD DVD to the CB3 and the former
sounds appreciably better. Just did this with the U-2 HD DVD the other day
and their was no doubt about this.
post #58 of 620
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

All HD DVDs. Most every disc I have played with DD+ shows up as DTS on my processor.

The cheaper HD-A1 does this as well.


Both first generation Toshiba HD DVD players convert Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby True HD to DTS at 1.5 mbs to transmit over toslink or coaxial - its the player doing that.
post #59 of 620
Steve,

"Now you have said that the HDMI connectors will be the same for HDMI v.1.3

Yet I've read a number of places, including here at AVS, that due to instable connectors that they connectors may be revised."

Again... HDMI v1.3 uses the same connector with an optional smaller connector for camcorder type applications. You don't have to wonder who is right about this... look it up.

http://www.hdmi.org/about/faq.asp#q4_1

Shawn
post #60 of 620
Sanjay,

"Wouldn't that be something like 6Mbps?"

(192,000 * 24) * 2. 192kHz * 24 bits for two channels. And that is if they kept the S/PDIF format the same with 24 data bits per sample. S/PDIF actually is composed of 32 bits per sample, 24 is for audio data and 8 other bits is for preamble.

"True, though there was a rumor being floated for a while that a typical 5.1-channel 48kHz movie soundtrack could be losslessly compressed using TrueHD and fit through a S/PDIF connection."

From a bandwidth standpoint that might be possible. But just so this isn't read the wrong way that still is a lot lower bandwidth then 8 channels of 96/24 which HDMI can do.

I haven't really looked at S/PDIF transmitters in awhile but when I did a couple of years back the fastest was 192kHz. I'd assume that is current since Cirrus isn't showing anything faster. If there were faster units they would likely have one.

Shawn
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