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Insteon Dimmer Solution  

post #1 of 32
10/7/06 at 1:55pm
Thread Starter 
I'm planning my lighting for my HT so I can do the rough in wiring for it soon. I have decided to use the Insteon dimmer because it seems to provide a lot of functionality for the money. I'm new to this X10/Insteon/Home Automation stuff, so I wanted to tell you what I am planning on doing just to make sure I don't miss something.

My HT will have 3 lighting zones and I'm looking for an inexpensive solution. I would like to start out with an inexpensive solution, but in the future upgrade it to one that can be controlled with an IR remote such as the Harmony 880.

1) I'll run Romex from the panel to the switch location so I'll have a hot, neutral & ground that the Insteon dimmers require. Then my lights will be controlled off the load side of the dimmer, where I'll also run hot, neutral and ground to the lights.

2) I'll probably buy the Dimmer Switch INSTEON Starter Kit (http://www.smarthome.com/2492.html), plus one extra Switchlink v2 dimmer (http://www.smarthome.com/2476d.html) so I'll have 3 total dimmers. This uses the ControLinc tabletop controller to control the dimmers.

3) I'll keep my lighting loads under 600W per zone since that's what the Smartlink dimmers are rated for. If I need more, they have a 1000W one as well.

4) What I have outlined above should allow me to dim from the wall dimmers, or the ControLinc tabletop controller, but it will NOT allow me to control lighting by an IR remote such as the Harmony 880.

5) To use an IR remote to dim & control scenes, Smarthome does not currently have an Insteon solution. They are, however, planning on releasing one called the IR Linc in Q4 so hopefully it wil be available soon. This will translate IR to Insteon (either through RF or the power lines or both, not sure).

6) Since the IR Linc isn't available yet, I could go with an IR to X10 converter and run my Insteon in X10 mode to achieve IR remote control now like Bud and others here have done. However, I think I'll just wait on the IR Linc and stick with all Insteon mode. The IR Linc may very well be available by the time I'm ready to buy.

One question I have is what benefit would there be to buying a PowerLinc controller (http://www.smarthome.com/2414u.html) ? It looks like I can program it with the computer software which would be nice, but I'm not understanding what the PowerLinc would do for me above and beyond the ControLinc? Maybe when I do get an IR Linc I'll need one? I don't need to do any timing control, just lighting scene control.

Does anyone know ANYTHING about the upcoming IR Linc from Insteon? Since I'm doing wiring now, I want to do whatever wiring I would need to accomodate an IR Linc, but I have no idea what it may require.

Thanks,
Guy

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post #2 of 32
10/7/06 at 6:41pm
One thing - I wouldn't buy any of their starter kits if you are only running Insteon in a small area of your house. The relay units that are included in all of the starter kits are just overkill. They are certainly useful if you are running a thinly spread system, but it sounds like you will just have all of the lights based in the same general location. Signal strength shouldn't therefore be an issue.

As for their upcoming IR unit, I have no clue what it will look like. I'm guessing that it will most likely be a plug in unit like their appliance unit, but I could be wrong.

The Houselinc software can come bundled with the powerlinc unit. Those two items allow you to use your PC to program scenes. This is far easier then doing it via the manual way if you ask me. Especially if you start adding additional Insteon units in other parts of your house.
post #3 of 32
10/8/06 at 10:24pm
I just installed 80 of these today, another 45 more and I will have the job complete. Maybe the slickest dimmers I have ever seen, massive functionality. but.............. theres always a but, they get very warm when under loads even 150 watts under their rating. The other thing that is fixable but a slight pain in the pooper is that they are seriously bright, like high beams on a country road bright in the off position. Two thumbs up on all other accounts
post #4 of 32
10/8/06 at 11:17pm
I installed about 50 of the Insteon V2 dimmers last week and they all work good so far.
They are very slick. One switch can control multiple lights in your house.

Ruben
post #5 of 32
10/9/06 at 6:36am
Digitalman,

Its just as easy as getting an USB UIRT for your computer and an IR repeater for your theaterand the Insteon USB power link, the Dimmers gain alot of flexability by letting your computer control your Insteons via RF, chances are once you get these, you will ad more to your home.

Another option is to dump the Harmony and get a Universal Remote MX series remote which sends RF and IR, a guy thats pretty slick with all this is jmorris644 but you cant bother him until I am finished bothering him.

As far as wiring goes I would sneak in some Cat5 cable here and there around the theater, you may never use it with everything going wireless but it wouldnt hurt to have some just incase
post #6 of 32
10/9/06 at 11:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathan
One thing - I wouldn't buy any of their starter kits if you are only running Insteon in a small area of your house. The relay units that are included in all of the starter kits are just overkill. They are certainly useful if you are running a thinly spread system, but it sounds like you will just have all of the lights based in the same general location. Signal strength shouldn't therefore be an issue.
Thanks for the suggestion. It seems like the starter kit I'm looking at is significantly cheaper than buying the same components individually. The starter kit costs $129.99, whereas if I added up the individual costs of the components it's 179.96. If I subtract off the SignaLinc RF's, the total would be 109.97. Since there would only be a $20 difference, I'm debating if I should save the $20, or just go ahead and get the SignaLink RF's so I'll have them available for future expansion.

Guy
post #7 of 32
10/9/06 at 11:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark P
I just installed 80 of these today, another 45 more and I will have the job complete. Maybe the slickest dimmers I have ever seen, massive functionality. but.............. theres always a but, they get very warm when under loads even 150 watts under their rating. The other thing that is fixable but a slight pain in the pooper is that they are seriously bright, like high beams on a country road bright in the off position. Two thumbs up on all other accounts
Thanks for the advice. I added up the max wattage on one of my zones yesterday, and I would be right at 600W (8 x 75W). I was worried about being right on the edge, and your post confirmed that worry. I'll probably buy the 1000W dimmer for that zone just to be safe.

Just to clarify, do you mean that the SwitchLinc dimmers are bright, or are you talking about a KeypadLinc dimmer, or both? I saw another post about the brightness, but I couldn't tell which they were referring to.

Guy
post #8 of 32
10/9/06 at 11:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark P
Digitalman,

Its just as easy as getting an USB UIRT for your computer and an IR repeater for your theaterand the Insteon USB power link, the Dimmers gain alot of flexability by letting your computer control your Insteons via RF, chances are once you get these, you will ad more to your home.
Hum...that sounds like an interesting possibility for the future. Initially I won't have the funds for a HTPC, but it is something I hope to add in the future. I'm still trying to understand the function of the Insteon PowerLink USB to decide if I should go ahead and get one of those now to program the dimmers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark P
Another option is to dump the Harmony and get a Universal Remote MX series remote which sends RF and IR, a guy thats pretty slick with all this is jmorris644 but you cant bother him until I am finished bothering him.

Yeah, I haven't bought the Harmony yet. I'm going to finish the room, install the equipment, and then try and decide on a universal remote. Are you saying that if I bought an RF capable remote that I could control the Insteon stuff directly without needing to convert IR to Insteon? If so, that could be really nice. That might push me towards an RF remote if that would work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark P
As far as wiring goes I would sneak in some Cat5 cable here and there around the theater, you may never use it with everything going wireless but it wouldnt hurt to have some just incase
Yes, very good advice. I do plan on doing this to help future-proof the theater.

Guy
post #9 of 32
10/9/06 at 8:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Man
Hum...that sounds like an interesting possibility for the future. Initially I won't have the funds for a HTPC, but it is something I hope to add in the future. I'm still trying to understand the function of the Insteon PowerLink USB to decide if I should go ahead and get one of those now to program the dimmers.




Yeah, I haven't bought the Harmony yet. I'm going to finish the room, install the equipment, and then try and decide on a universal remote. Are you saying that if I bought an RF capable remote that I could control the Insteon stuff directly without needing to convert IR to Insteon? If so, that could be really nice. That might push me towards an RF remote if that would work.



Yes, very good advice. I do plan on doing this to help future-proof the theater.

Guy
You dont need an HTPC, any computer works.
The Insteon USB link allows the Insteons to be stored and totally controlled by a computer. A USB-UIRT allows any IR device to talk to a computer.

The Universal remotes are all RF/IR and very powerful remotes programmed on your computer, tomorrow I will check my MX 850 and MX 950 to see if they can pick up the RF if you would like, too tired tonight
post #10 of 32
10/10/06 at 5:50am
Anyone had issues with their Insteon dimmers? I have lost 2 dimmers now (from different dedicated circuits) and am starting to wonder about quality. Each dimmer I lost was operating less than 450 Watts of power.
post #11 of 32
10/10/06 at 6:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jikkjack
Anyone had issues with their Insteon dimmers? I have lost 2 dimmers now (from different dedicated circuits) and am starting to wonder about quality. Each dimmer I lost was operating less than 450 Watts of power.
They do get hotter than He11 way below their max wattage and they have components that appear cheap ( namely the paddle itself) out of 80 I had 1 failed before install and 1 that doesnt hold link to another, time will tell if they are junk or not, the lutron dimmers these replaced are 12 years old and never failed so I expect the same here but with the heat issue, I doubt it.

I called the Insteon rep and asked if its normal for such high heat output and they said yes, it dissapates through the faceplate, I told him I could cook breakfast on the sides of the switch and his reply was " Your touching the sides??????? You might get shocked!!!" I wont go into the rest of the conversation but found this strange, good thing I didnt tell him I never shut off the breakers during installs, he may have had a coronary.

The aluminum face plate and paddle housing appear to be better quality than Lutron but they sure stuff alot of circuitry into a small container. One thing to make sure of is that you dont put load switches in the same gang box, I was lucky and had a properly wired home with traveler wires to move load switches to independent gang boxes, if you put two 600 watt dimmers in a double gang and have 400 watts on each, I would be worried, very worried for failure. The rep explained what they meant by dropping the wattage when installing dimmers side by side and its all heat related.

Before ordering these dimmers, make sure the load switches can be placed in seperate boxes via traveler wires if you plan on running 400 watts or more on a zone, if you cant, I would not buy these dimmers unless you get the 1000 watt variety. I am betting people with failures of these are double stacking with large loads on one or both switches.

Another option is to buy these http://www.smarthomepro.com/2475d.html and split heavy watt zones into smaller zones, you can fit these into the light boxes themselves or just above the boxes and break your zones up ( dont forget to link them before you bury them into a place where you have to take the light and box back out to link them)
post #12 of 32
10/10/06 at 6:42am
Hey Mark - YOUR POST IS VERY INTERESTING. THANK YOU.

That is my problem. I have three dimmers in an oversized tripple gang box. And the two dimmers that have failed are in the same box. The first dimmer is carrying 320 watts. The second is carrying 240 Watts and the third is just a button pad that controlls the two dimmers beside them.

I agree on the heat issue. Damn hot. To the point where it makes me nervous that they are going to burst into flames and at such LOW wattage.

There is no documentation in the instructions about putting these dimmers in an oversized gang box combo or maybe I missed it but this is exactly what is happening in my situation. I think this will be easy for me to correct though as I have travelers and can space these things out into seperate boxes. Thanks again.
post #13 of 32
10/10/06 at 6:49am
Jickkjack I placed this in the end of my post it may help if you cant travel


Quote:
Another option is to buy these http://www.smarthomepro.com/2475d.html and split heavy watt zones into smaller zones, you can fit these into the light boxes themselves or just above the boxes and break your zones up ( dont forget to link them before you bury them into a place where you have to take the light and box back out to link them)
I would say your lucky you didnt have more serious problems than failure
post #14 of 32
10/10/06 at 7:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jikkjack

There is no documentation in the instructions about putting these dimmers in an oversized gang box combo or maybe I missed it but this is exactly what is happening in my situation. I think this will be easy for me to correct though as I have travelers and can space these things out into seperate boxes. Thanks again.
Yep, pretty cheesy and dangerous, they claim theres not a fire hazard but I am thinking of all sorts of scenerios where it could be. The smarthome folks will warn you about stacking these into gang boxes but only tell you it reduces wattage ratings without explaining why. I found out why imeadiately and called them to confirm and yes its all about heat, not what the switch is capable of. they need a LARGE IN BOLD WARNING IN THEIR INSTRUCTIONS preferrably in RED with a skull and crossbones in my opinion, Im lucky I tested and figured all this out on my first zone and adjusted accordingly before having to change whats now become 120 switches on 70 different zones
post #15 of 32
10/10/06 at 7:21am
LOL. Mark - I think you should get a sticky about this from the Mods. I am very thankful for your help on getting to the bottom of this issue. I agree on the bold with skull and crossbones. I am just mad at myself for not going ahead and separating them after the first one died. I figured it was heat related but took the lazy way out. I guess I am just surprised at the heat levels for such relatively low wattage. I wonder if this is just a temporary issue until they perfect the technology. I am also wondering what type of faceplate to put on these dimmers. I wonder if I can buy ceramic faceplates. That is the only material that I can think of that won't melt or require a warning. Caution this faceplate could give you third degree burns.
post #16 of 32
10/10/06 at 9:55am
Let me throw something out there. The Lutron Diva dimmers I bought for my house (from HD) have the same sort of heat issue. I have one particular three gang box that has two dimmers in them. My father-in-law talked to tech support at Lutron and we found out that those aluminum wings on the side of the dimmer are there to dissipate some amount of heat. Many people, including us, removed some of the paddles in order to fit them in the box better. Obviously by removing some of the paddles, you need to reduce the wattage (well, not so obvious if you didn't run into this problem). I tend not to have the lights on that for a long period of time that are in this box, and there is some heat associated with these dimmers, but not a real problem anymore. In my case, in the three gang box, I have dimmer,switch, dimmer. I think there is an issue putting two dimmers directly next to each other, due to the fins.

EDIT:
More info here. You can see down in this doc that if you remove the fins on both sides, it significantly reduced the maximum wattage of the load.

http://www.lutron.com/product_technical/ganging.asp

Bud
post #17 of 32
10/10/06 at 5:59pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark P
The Universal remotes are all RF/IR and very powerful remotes programmed on your computer, tomorrow I will check my MX 850 and MX 950 to see if they can pick up the RF if you would like, too tired tonight
That would be great if you wouldn't mind. I'm trying to understand if an RF remote can control the Insteon stuff directly.

Guy
post #18 of 32
10/10/06 at 6:19pm
I received 5 1000 watt dimmers today and they dont get hot at all, luke warm with 650 watts and 750 watts, we shall see after they get a couple hours on them
post #19 of 32
10/10/06 at 6:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark P
One thing to make sure of is that you dont put load switches in the same gang box, I was lucky and had a properly wired home with traveler wires to move load switches to independent gang boxes, if you put two 600 watt dimmers in a double gang and have 400 watts on each, I would be worried, very worried for failure. The rep explained what they meant by dropping the wattage when installing dimmers side by side and its all heat related.

Before ordering these dimmers, make sure the load switches can be placed in seperate boxes via traveler wires if you plan on running 400 watts or more on a zone, if you cant, I would not buy these dimmers unless you get the 1000 watt variety. I am betting people with failures of these are double stacking with large loads on one or both switches.
Mark,

Could you please clarify for me what you mean by the above paragraphs, especially the part about "I was lucky and had a properly wired home with traveler wires to move load switches to independent gang boxes". Can you clarify exactly how one would do that?

Do you mean that I should get 3 single gang boxes, and put one dimmer in each one and daisy chain the Romex feed from the panel to the Line side of each dimmer? I'd like all 3 dimmers to be close to one another, but I've got 24" OC that I could use to spread them out. I could put 2x4's horizontal between the studs, and then mount the Carlton adjustable boxes I have to short vertical 2x4's between them.

I had assumed I would just get a 3 gang box, and put all 3 dimmers in it. Then I would run Romex from the panel to this 3 gang box (so I would have hot, neutral & ground for the dimmers). Then I would wire nut the romex from the panel to the Line side of the dimmers by tieing the hots together, tieing the neutrals to together, and of course tieing the grounds together. Then from this 3 gang box, I would run a leg to each lighting zone from the Load side of each dimmer.

I was a little worried about the box fill (how many wires you are allowed to have in a box), and it sounds like that would be bad for heat as well.

Thanks,
Guy
post #20 of 32
10/10/06 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinadog
Let me throw something out there. The Lutron Diva dimmers I bought for my house (from HD) have the same sort of heat issue. I have one particular three gang box that has two dimmers in them. My father-in-law talked to tech support at Lutron and we found out that those aluminum wings on the side of the dimmer are there to dissipate some amount of heat. Many people, including us, removed some of the paddles in order to fit them in the box better. Obviously by removing some of the paddles, you need to reduce the wattage (well, not so obvious if you didn't run into this problem). I tend not to have the lights on that for a long period of time that are in this box, and there is some heat associated with these dimmers, but not a real problem anymore. In my case, in the three gang box, I have dimmer,switch, dimmer. I think there is an issue putting two dimmers directly next to each other, due to the fins.

EDIT:
More info here. You can see down in this doc that if you remove the fins on both sides, it significantly reduced the maximum wattage of the load.

http://www.lutron.com/product_technical/ganging.asp

Bud
Yeah Bud the Lutrons are a different breed and have better ventilation, Insteon has one vent hole and no " paddles" as you call them except on the 1000 watt models and even then they are just on the top and bottom. Insteon also costs half as much and does the same and more
post #21 of 32
10/10/06 at 6:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Man
Mark,

Could you please clarify for me what you mean by the above paragraphs, especially the part about "I was lucky and had a properly wired home with traveler wires to move load switches to independent gang boxes". Can you clarify exactly how one would do that?

Do you mean that I should get 3 single gang boxes, and put one dimmer in each one and daisy chain the Romex feed from the panel to the Line side of each dimmer? I'd like all 3 dimmers to be close to one another, but I've got 24" OC that I could use to spread them out. I could put 2x4's horizontal between the studs, and then mount the Carlton adjustable boxes I have to short vertical 2x4's between them.

I had assumed I would just get a 3 gang box, and put all 3 dimmers in it. Then I would run Romex from the panel to this 3 gang box (so I would have hot, neutral & ground for the dimmers). Then I would wire nut the romex from the panel to the Line side of the dimmers by tieing the hots together, tieing the neutrals to together, and of course tieing the grounds together. Then from this 3 gang box, I would run a leg to each lighting zone from the Load side of each dimmer.

I was a little worried about the box fill (how many wires you are allowed to have in a box), and it sounds like that would be bad for heat as well.

Thanks,
Guy
When a house is built and will have more than one switch running the same lights they run 14/3 wire instead of typical 14/2 wire, this means you have a black, white, red ( or blue) and ground. The red wire is considered a "Traveler" because if you wire with 14/3 throughout the home you can move any wire to anywhere you want by jumping the load wire ( wire from the light itself) to the red wire and wire nut the reds together until you reach the point where you want your " Load" switch.

I have 5 switches that control a certain zone of lights, in each box there is a blk, wht, red and ground the way Isteon works is you find your load wire, in my case it was at one end, so I hook all blacks ( hot) together in each box to black wire on Insteon, all whites ( neutral) together to the white Insteon, ground and then cap the red wire coming out of the Insteons ( this is the "load" line of the dimmer) except where the actual load wire going to a light is in a box then you hook up the Insteon red wire to this wire making that Insteon your PRIMARY DIMMER. Then you link all the secondary dimmers to that dimmer making a virtual 5 switch dimmer system.

Now say your actual load wires all end up in a three gang box ( three seperate lights) you can hook that load wire to the red Traveler wire and now the load wire is at the next box back making this the box where to connect the Insteon up to Black, white and red, you moved your dimmer to another box, be sure to unhook the original dimmer and just hook up black and white to black and white and just wire nut the red wire.

If you want a picture, I will make one
post #22 of 32
10/10/06 at 6:57pm
Or yes install seperate boxes to avoid 3 hot dimmers in a single gang. The cool part about Insteon is that as long as you can attach the red wire of the insteon to the light you want to control, you can hook up another switch anywhere in the home to the Black and white and control the actual load Dimmer by linking them, the possibilities are endless. out of 120 load dimmers I only have 2 dimmers in two boxes but they are low watt zones, the other 126 are in gang boxes sharing seconday switches that dont get hot because they dont have the load wire hooked up and are just linked switches to other switches. The system is amazing no doubt
post #23 of 32
10/10/06 at 7:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark P
If you want a picture, I will make one
Could you please make a picture? I think it would help a ton to visualize it!
post #24 of 32
10/10/06 at 10:51pm
Heres several differant ways , I showed the 14/3 wire so you could see how a traveler ( red wire) works to move the Primary Dimmer ( the one that gets warm due to load) the little tan circles are wirenuts

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y28...ed/insteon.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y28...d/insteon2.jpg

Hope this helps, I didnt include ground wire in the diagram because I am lazy but hook up the bare copper wire to a bare copper ground in box, make sure it cant make contact with any other connections. the Black wire coming of the one dimmer ( secondary linkable in both diagrams) is a little thin, I forgot to increase its size is all, no super secret wire used here
post #25 of 32
10/11/06 at 5:45am
Thanks mark, that helped a ton!

Very interesting, now i am wondering if 2 dimmers in a 2 gang box would be a problem...
The 1 would have at most 160 watts, the other would be closer to 600 watts.

Anyone see this as a problem.
post #26 of 32
10/11/06 at 7:20am
Major,

Thats what Ive been saying all along. If you do this use a 1000 watt Dimmer and it might work, if your using Insteon
post #27 of 32
10/11/06 at 9:35am
I think im just gonna break it out to 2 single boxes, and i am definately using insteon, I have the api and am going to start writting my own software for it, for fun.
post #28 of 32
10/11/06 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Man
That would be great if you wouldn't mind. I'm trying to understand if an RF remote can control the Insteon stuff directly.

Guy
I don't think even a normal RF remote can presently operate the Insteon stuff - that is besides the clunky one they sell that only does x10/insteon stuff. The part that will allow us to do so is suppose to come out later this year.

I could be wrong though, so you may want to post the question on SmartHomes forum.
post #29 of 32
10/11/06 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathan
I don't think even a normal RF remote can presently operate the Insteon stuff - that is besides the clunky one they sell that only does x10/insteon stuff.
You are correct, no one has released a native Insteon RF remote control. Smarthome is working on a solution.

When you install the SignaLinc RF’s, you have the hardware to support RF control of the Insteon network. The tricky part is finding a remote that understands the Insteon RF codes and the frequency at which Insteon RF operates (904 MHz).

I have about 30+ SwitchLinc's installed in various double and triple gang boxes and I'm not running into heat issues. I'm also not running loads above 300W on any of the switches. The heat issue really depends on the lights you are controlling, wattage, and switch configuration.
post #30 of 32
10/11/06 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathan
I don't think even a normal RF remote can presently operate the Insteon stuff - that is besides the clunky one they sell that only does x10/insteon stuff. The part that will allow us to do so is suppose to come out later this year.

I could be wrong though, so you may want to post the question on SmartHomes forum.
You are correct, no one has released a native Insteon RF remote control. Smarthome is working on a solution.

When you install the SignaLinc RF’s, you have the hardware to support RF control of the Insteon network. The tricky part is finding a remote that understands the Insteon RF codes and the frequency at which Insteon RF operates (904 MHz).

I have about 30+ SwitchLinc's installed in various double and triple gang boxes and I'm not running into heat issues. I'm also not running loads above 300W on any of the switches. The heat issue really depends on the lights you are controlling, wattage, and switch configuration.
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