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Official 2007 Mitsubishi WD-xx73X/WD-xx831 Settings & Tweaks Thread - Page 3

post #61 of 774
10/11/06 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sourcery View Post

What you seek may be found here: UMR's (Jeff Meier's) report on his first calibration of a WD-xx732

For some reasons I can't save UMR's files on the Capn' calibration
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post #62 of 774
10/11/06 at 9:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sourcery View Post

What you seek may be found here: UMR's (Jeff Meier's) report on his first calibration of a WD-xx732


For some reason I can't even get them to open (says file cannot be found???).
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post #63 of 774
10/11/06 at 9:55am
For those of us who are relatively inexperienced with these TV's and who don't want to read 200 pages of posts, a reminder that HDNET transmits a test pattern at 8am each Tuesday. With Daylight Saving time, it turned out to be 7am right now. I recorded the pattern with the 6416 STB DVR off Verizon FIOS cable TV and displayed it on the TV. It was moderately useful in setting contract, brightness, etc. The URL that describes the process is: http://www.smartcalibration.com/hdnetpatterns.html.
The resolution chart was particularly useful in setting between 720p and 1080i. I have a 65831. On ESPN, which transmits in 720p, setting the STB to 720p was clearly preferable. However, on HDNET, which transmits in 1080i, on both the normal source and test pattern. I preferred 1080i. I know there is some question of the deinterlacing quality of the Mits, but whether with motion or without, the 1080i seemed better. And even my wife noticed it ("blind" test). So, since I have to set the STB on one or the other, I have selected 1080i. The resolution clearly was better on the 1080i.
ESPN which transmits in 720p is better to set the STB to 720p and let the Mits scale up to 1080p. ESPN, when the STB is on 1080i, has smeared letters when the text is scrolling at the bottom of the screen. So, either the STB is not converting to 1080i very well or the Mits is not deinterlacing the 1080i to 1080p very well. Don't know which it is, though, from just these tests. I'm not seeing any such issues with HDNET or Discovery HD when the source is 1080i, the STB is set to 1080i and the Mits deinterlaces to 1080p. So, if it weren't for some of the other posts, I would surmise that it is the STB that is the culprit trying to convert 720p to 1080i, not the Mits deinterlacing 1080i to 1080p. If the STB is set to 720p and I look at HDNET or Discovery HD, the picture is good (so the Mits is upscaling from 720p to 1080p well), but the resolution is not as good as when the STB is set to 1080i. I have no real good way (no test equipment) to tell if the Mits is deinterlacing well or not from 1080i to 1080p. But to my eye, the improvement in resolution with the STB set on 1080i is a significant improvement.
After all that, we went through the HDNET test patterns. On STB 720p, the sharpness control seems to do very very little, or nothing. On STB 1080i, Sharpness does have an effect. I feel that SharpEdge rings and introduces artifacts to the picture, so I have routinely set it off; in the test pattern, the negative effect was clearly visible. Video Noise doesn't have an effect on good quality HD input. I'll have to test it further on noisy input.

My settings for the STB are: 1080i, Sharp 37, Color Temp Low, DFI ON, SE OFF, Video Noise Low (little or no effect on good HD), Picture Bright, Contrast 28, Brightness 44, Color 31, Tint 31. Colors Mag 29, Red 31, Yellow 30, Green 30, Cyan 31, Blue 31.
No science to setting the colors, just trying for something natural, that pops, without the cartoonish colors.
This is a start. Net result is that the picture does appear a bit more natural. Resolution is much better. Artifacts are at a new low. Colors may need some more tweeking.

Peace.
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post #64 of 774
10/11/06 at 10:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I of course disagree on this. When a display has serious color decoder errors and you shift the white point to D65 the grays are now accurate, but the other colors can be more incorrect. I find the results to be so poor that I refuse to do it. I also do not want my name associated with a display that does not match my minimum expectations.

What did you do before there were sets with color decoder alignments?

There are going to be trade-offs without the color adjustments, but to assume that the results will be worse than without gray scale seems faulty. in these sets, bringing the low setting to D65 will improve magenta, and bringing the high setting down will improve cyan. Improving either may make the other worse, and this is where you have to use some judgement and consider the user's preferences.
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post #65 of 774
10/11/06 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

What did you do before there were sets with color decoder alignments?

There are going to be trade-offs without the color adjustments, but to assume that the results will be worse than without gray scale seems faulty. in these sets, bringing the low setting to D65 will improve magenta, and bringing the high setting down will improve cyan. Improving either may make the other worse, and this is where you have to use some judgement and consider the user's preferences.

There have been color decoder alignments for years. Most have been in the service mode. It has also been possible to correct this to some extent with component inputs using an attenuator on the Pr input. With the extensive use of HDMI an attenuator is out of the picture for most people these days. I have also used external circuitry in the past to correct chroma delay problems with displays when necessary.

Based on the single sample I looked at Cyan was much better at D65, but Magenta and Yellow were much worse. To me it is debatable that adjusting to D65 with a severely skewed color decoder is worth my fee so I choose not to go there. I am looking for 100% customer satisfaction and I believe that calibrating a display that I am unable to align the decoder reasonably is likely to result in some percentage of customer dissatisfaction which I abhor. I may be wrong, but that is my position. I also happen to be in the situation where I do not need to take marginal jobs so I do not.
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post #66 of 774
10/11/06 at 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadClams View Post

For some reason I can't even get them to open (says file cannot be found???).

Right click

Save Target As...
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post #67 of 774
10/11/06 at 1:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenking View Post

Trying to adjust settings for LOW color temp, got to the Service page that showed those, but pressing the up/down buttons on the remote didnt seem to do anything. Are there different pages showing those settings, or some other trick to this?

Hi,

I noticed the same thing this morning...You need to change the color temp to LOW and then go into the service menu. If you leave it on HIGH prior to going into the service menu, low settings won't change......

Odd...but that should do it for you (it allowed me to make the change).

Rez.
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post #68 of 774
10/11/06 at 2:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Right click

Save Target As...

Muchas Gracias
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post #69 of 774
10/11/06 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

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Tank you Berry much....

Now...I can't understand a thing what these documents say
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post #70 of 774
10/11/06 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RudyMeister View Post

Tank you Berry much....

Now...I can't understand a thing what these documents say

What do you want to know?
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post #71 of 774
10/11/06 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SailorKane View Post

My settings for the STB are: 1080i, Sharp 37, Color Temp Low, DFI ON, SE OFF, Video Noise Low (little or no effect on good HD), Picture Bright, Contrast 28, Brightness 44, Color 31, Tint 31. Colors Mag 29, Red 31, Yellow 30, Green 30, Cyan 31, Blue 31.
No science to setting the colors, just trying for something natural, that pops, without the cartoonish colors.
This is a start. Net result is that the picture does appear a bit more natural. Resolution is much better. Artifacts are at a new low. Colors may need some more tweeking.

What was your lighting condition in your room? Was there any ambient light? When I used AVIA I did it at night with no lights on. It allows everyone to see my setting on a fair playing field. If you would be willing, please do this with your set, so I can compare my set up.

COLOR TEMP: LOW
SHARPNESS: 05
TINT: 23
COLOR: 26
BRIGHTNESS: 31
CONTRAST: 02
PICTURE MODE: Natural
VIDEO NOISE: OFF
SHARPEDGE: ON
DEEPFIELD IMAGER: ON

PERFECT COLOR: ALL DEFAULT 31 (Except RED 23)
PERFECT TINT: ALL DEFAULT 31
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post #72 of 774
10/12/06 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezinator View Post

Hi,

I noticed the same thing this morning...You need to change the color temp to LOW and then go into the service menu. If you leave it on HIGH prior to going into the service menu, low settings won't change......

Odd...but that should do it for you (it allowed me to make the change).

Rez.

Figured that out last night, but thanx.

What REALLY need to know is WHICH settings controls the screen background... i want to balance mine to be exactly gray, so b/w stuff really comes across BW (is just a tad on the yellow side now).

REALLY need a Mits service rep on here, would give alot for a listing of what the 60 or so service settings all do...
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post #73 of 774
10/12/06 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenking View Post

Figured that out last night, but thanx.

What REALLY need to know is WHICH settings controls the screen background... i want to balance mine to be exactly gray, so b/w stuff really comes across BW (is just a tad on the yellow side now).

REALLY need a Mits service rep on here, would give alot for a listing of what the 60 or so settings all do...

Mitsubishi's "official stance" (for whatever reason) has been the only adjustments that can be made in the Service Menu are horizontal and vertical positioning. Obviously there are additional adjustments, but they have not released any info re: them.
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post #74 of 774
10/12/06 at 8:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Why would you assume this? Why do you think the factory settings differ from set to set? Why do you think the data has to be copied or transferred when the light engine or certain chassis parts are changed? And this does not even consider lamp spectral variations, which are likely greater than the differences in the electronics.

There are some general guidelines you can use and some trends that all of the sets have, but they come from the factory looking quite similar, although wrong IME. If you used the same settings on every set, you would end up with more set to set variation AND be wrong.

You would do better adjusting gray scale visually than just using someone else's settings.

I simply make an assumption commonly used by scientists and engineers (and I am one) as a good working assumption to be used when better data is not (yet) available, that the probability distribution for any measurable parameter of the individuals in a population is some sort of bell curve, so that the probability is high that when you measure the value of that property for any particular individual you choose from among the population you will obtain a value reasonably near the median. Of course, if you have actually done a formal study that shows this assumption to not be valid, I will defer to your empirical evidence.

Also of course, there is a non-zero probability that the value measured on any chosen individual for the property in question may in fact differ substantially from the median value. But that's why my statement included the words "There's always the small possibility that either your set, or your friend's set, is unusually different from what is normal." But perhaps I should have said that more forcefully, and should not have minimized the very real possibility that any given TV will vary from the median quite as much as I did.

The fact that certain service menu settings depend on the light engine and lamp in no way invalidates the idea that the best settings for one set are likely to be reasonably close to those for another. And nowhere have I ever suggested that the best settings for one set are likely to be identical to those for another.

You claim "If you used the same settings on every set, you would end up with more set to set variation AND be wrong." That assertion is contrary to my experience. Just recently, I have applied RGB gain values obtained by instrument-driven calibration of one R60XBR1 to a different R60XBR1, one A2000 to a different A2000, and one 65831 to a different 65831, and have improved the picture quality as a result in each case (IMHO, of course.) Others have reported the same. I fully understand that this procedure is not optimal. But if it results in improved picture quality (subjectively, to me,) where's the harm?

Personally, I judge the typical 1k variance in color temperature of the 732s/831s to be the greater evil. I also see it as evidence that Mitsubishi's factory calibration procedure leaves more than a little to be desired.

I understand that using the RGB gain values optimal for a different set very likely will not provide perfect grayscale nor perfect color temperature. But in all the cases I've tried it, black and white programs (or color programs with color=0) still look black and white (it's some shade of gray, at least to the naked eye,) and the color temperature appears (to the eye) to be more accurate than before.

I fully intend to have my set professionally calibrated, once the 30-day return period expires (since I might decide to return the set for some reason until then.) I view using the RGB gain values optimal for another set as merely a temporary palliative, nothing more.

And Leonard, I have to say I highly value your contrinbutions to this forum, and your knowledge and expertise.

In the case of poster bmeist (who started this conversation,) some or all of what I have said may not apply. But, if he's been following this thread, he now knows the situation, and can and should make his own decisions.
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post #75 of 774
10/12/06 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bangedup View Post

What was your lighting condition in your room? Was there any ambient light? When I used AVIA I did it at night with no lights on. It allows everyone to see my setting on a fair playing field. If you would be willing, please do this with your set, so I can compare my set up.

COLOR TEMP: LOW
SHARPNESS: 05
TINT: 23
COLOR: 26
BRIGHTNESS: 31
CONTRAST: 02
PICTURE MODE: Natural
VIDEO NOISE: OFF
SHARPEDGE: ON
DEEPFIELD IMAGER: ON

PERFECT COLOR: ALL DEFAULT 31 (Except RED 23)
PERFECT TINT: ALL DEFAULT 31

Good point. In my case, we did our settings during daylight. Though we have windows, they point North. And there is a large porch, so the light is not too great in the room, but it was daylight. This was close to how we actually watch TV in the day time, and we typically have back lights on at night. Therefore, the "bright" setting I did, rather than the "natural" one you did. That makes most of our settings totally different. I was also most interested in settings on a good HD feed. We have FIOS digital cable and the feeds are excellent. We used HDNET pattern transmitted over the FIOS cable and recorded on the DTR. Again, since we watch more FIOS TV than DVD's. We did not try to check the TV in a darkened room, since that is typically not how we watch TV.

I have no experience with DVE or AVIA. I assume both are on a DVD and are played by the DVD player? In my case, I have an old non-progressive Toshiba (waiting on the format wars to sort out before buying the next DVD set), so I'll just put up with the DVD performance for a while.

On the sharpness, I felt the Sharpedge was too much filtering for good HD feeds. I could see the ringing at the edge of dark/light patterns. So, I turned it off and turned up the sharpness control some. I suspect the sharpness control did very little if you have SE ON. It certainly is personal choice--other people have preferred SE ON.

We just set brightness and contrast according to the directions for the HDNET test patterns. I do believe the picture is better afterwards. Again, with "bright", the magenta, green and yellow looked cartoonish. We have done very little with color settings. Just cranked those three down a notch to keep the flaring and cartoonism down.

I do believe the color temp of "low" is a bit yellowish. Probably because it is not at 6500K. But I am very reluctant to open the SM and dink around with the settings. At least now. Maybe later.

Also to repeat, my settings are just from the HDNET feed and personal taste. Not scientific at all and I do NOT calibrate TV's for a living. I seldom look at other TV's and do not have an educated eye. The only claim to fame I have on this whole issue is that I designed and tested quite a few filters for digital image processing 30 years ago (both geometry and radiometry) when people were still trying to argue analog was better! So I am perhaps more sensitive to over-filtering than others. By the way, our resolution was tons higher even then. Over 4 times the current 1080p resolution! But the hardware was in the low 7 figures and the end results were on high res film!

Peace.
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post #76 of 774
10/13/06 at 3:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sourcery View Post

You claim "If you used the same settings on every set, you would end up with more set to set variation AND be wrong." That assertion is contrary to my experience. Just recently, I have applied RGB gain values obtained by instrument-driven calibration of one R60XBR1 to a different R60XBR1, one A2000 to a different A2000, and one 65831 to a different 65831, and have improved the picture quality as a result in each case (IMHO, of course.) Others have reported the same. I fully understand that this procedure is not optimal. But if it results in improved picture quality (subjectively, to me,) where's the harm?
.

No harm at all. Just trying to point out that the sets get calibrated at the factory for a reason. Why they choose the lower level target for color temp is beyond me, but they do get rather consistent. Your assumptions about the statistical nature of the variance are likely correct, but you need to consider that a great deal of the variance is taken out by the factory calibration, thus the different settings OOB. If you had the data to generate good statistics about the population of settings either before or after calibration, using something close to the mean might be more useful. Just randomly geting someone else's settings could significantly skew your result.

We don't really disagree on the matter, just the degree to which it is useful. There are certainly trends in settings that are easy to define. Infact, as I have said before re calibration, a large part of what one gets as benefits from a professional calibration is learning how to use the consumer controls properly and having them set properly for what is often the first time. I make recommendations for our clients at installation of this nature all the time. Then we meausre the display's performance, if they are interested in going further than user level calibration. Then, if they desire, we can perform more precise calibration.
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post #77 of 774
10/13/06 at 10:59am
I've been searching this thread and the other Mits XX73X/XX831 threads and can't find the info on what the sets of zeros in the service menu mean. The first set is total hours on TV, the second, third and fourth are hours on lamps, right? what is the last set for? I have about 04770 total hrs on the TV, about 04734 on the first lamp, all zeros on the next lamp sets then 00035 in the last set (far right). What does this refer to?
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post #78 of 774
10/13/06 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwall23 View Post

Has anyone turned the shutter ON/OFF in the 2-4-5-3 PIMS service menu?

What is this shutter and is it normally ON or OFF?

Looks like it's normally ON. Turning it OFF gives brighter and slightly sharper pic. Notice this especially with test patterns containing vertical white lines.

Still not sure what it is, maybe this is the Dark Detailer?

i could be wrong, but i assumed that dark detailer was dbk in the service menu.
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post #79 of 774
10/13/06 at 12:16pm
I am going to go into service mode and change my settings. Do I need to change temp to low, it is currently on high with my current settings. I am a little confused on what I should do. Should I also reset to default on the color settings before I go into service menu
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post #80 of 774
10/13/06 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcurtis View Post

I am going to go into service mode and change my settings. Do I need to change temp to low, it is currently on high with my current settings. I am a little confused on what I should do. Should I also reset to default on the color settings before I go into service menu

you need to change your temp to low if you are going to change those settings in the sm. i would also default all of your color and tint settings (in perfectcolor/tint and also the tv's color and tint) and i have been putting brightness and contrast right in the middle. i think the OTB settings were based on the tv's defaults (brilliant, contrast 100%, sharpness 100%, all of the filters on). i'd turn all of that stuff down to default or off completely before you start adjusting the gains. after you adjust the gains, figure out your brightness and contrast levels and then work on the colors.

make sure to write everthing down, the defaults and any changes you make. the reset option in the service menu does not hold the tv's defaults in memory.
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post #81 of 774
10/13/06 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeeg View Post

the reset option in the service menu does not hold the tv's defaults in memory.

There seems to be three reset "options", though I dont know how they differ:

1) The reset button behind the front flap
2) The reset menu within the SM
3) Remote button combination of "menu - 1 - 2 - 3"

They must do different things I would assume
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post #82 of 774
10/13/06 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stixx View Post

There seems to be three reset "options", though I dont know how they differ:

1) The reset button behind the front flap
2) The reset menu within the SM
3) Remote button combination of "menu - 1 - 2 - 3"

They must do different things I would assume

1) Essentially the same as unplugging the power. No stored memory is reset. The last state of the set is retained except power.
2) The Restore option in the service menu recalls the factory settings for the set, as they are stored in two locations. This returns it to the OOB condition retaining whatever factory calibrations were made, assuming no boards have been changed or other data transfers were done.
3) All customer settings are reset except V-chip info.

There are actually nine levels of reset, two for the remote and 7 for the set.
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post #83 of 774
10/13/06 at 5:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenking View Post

Figured that out last night, but thanx.

What REALLY need to know is WHICH settings controls the screen background... i want to balance mine to be exactly gray, so b/w stuff really comes across BW (is just a tad on the yellow side now).

REALLY need a Mits service rep on here, would give alot for a listing of what the 60 or so service settings all do...

Mitsubishi service reps would be no help, as they just repeat the company mantra that there are no problems with the sets and there are no adjustments to make other than H & V position.

In the service menu there are obvious gain controls at the top of the menu for high and low color temps. These are mostly linear across the gray scale and intuitive. Near the bottom of the normal service menu there are three more sets of controls that are non-linear in their effects. Without instrumentation, I would not attempt to adjust them. Some of them interact between the colors and they have differing effects across the gray scale. With careful mesurements and tweaking, I have been able to get esentially linear tracking, but these controls are not at all easy to use. I have discussed these in the mitsubishi service menu thread on the Calman forum.
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post #84 of 774
10/13/06 at 6:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeeg View Post

i could be wrong, but i assumed that dark detailer was dbk in the service menu.

Could be Smeeg. Have you tried changing it to see what effect it has?
What values are possible (mine's currently=1).
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post #85 of 774
10/13/06 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Mitsubishi service reps would be no help, as they just repeat the company mantra that there are no problems with the sets and there are no adjustments to make other than H & V position.

How many service menus are you aware of on these sets?
I only know of 3 (PIMS I found by keying in sequential 4 digit MENU + numbers) and don't want to experiment this way to find more since who knows what might happen.
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post #86 of 774
10/13/06 at 8:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

There are actually nine levels of reset, two for the remote and 7 for the set.

Courtesy of the Service Manual (available on eBay as a PDF)
  1. Remote Control TV Layer Reset: Returns the remote control TV layer to normal operation. Once the valid code has been entered and confirmed, the remote control has been reset.
  2. Remote Control TV Volume/Mute functions: Returns the volume and mute functions of the remote control to TV volume and mute for TV, Cable/Sat, VCR and DVD layers after the audio lock for AV Receivers feature has been used. The remote will now operate the TV's volume and mute when the slide switch is in the TV, CABLE/SAT, VCR or DVD positions.
  3. A/V Memory Reset, single input: When the audio and or video settings for a single input seem incorrect. All Audio and Video settings for the individual input are reset except for the Listen To and Language, audio Balance and Closed Caption settings.
  4. A/V Reset, all inputs: To reset audio and video adjustments for all inputs to the original factory settings. All Audio and Video settings including Listen To and Language , Closed Captions settings and Format settings are returned to the original factory settings.
  5. System Reset: To reset the TV when it does not turn on or off, does not respond to the remote control, front panel buttons or has audio but no video. The changes you made most recently, before using the SYSTEM RESET, may be lost. Changes you made previously, however, are not lost.
  6. TV Reset: To reset all customer settings All customer settings except V-Chip are reset.
  7. Initialize - User Level: To reset all consumer adjusted settings and memories to the original factory defaults. All memories and settings outlined in the Owner's Guide will need to be set again.
  8. Initialize - Service Level: To reset all consumer adjusted settings and memories to the original factory defaults. All memories and settings outlined in the Owner's Guide will need to be set again. Also erases V-CHIP password.
  9. Factory Restore: To recover from data/adjustment errors in the ISF menu. All service, user, ISF data is set back to factory defaults.
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post #87 of 774
10/13/06 at 9:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwall23 View Post

How many service menus are you aware of on these sets?
I only know of 3 (PIMS I found by keying in sequential 4 digit MENU + numbers) and don't want to experiment this way to find more since who knows what might happen.

I would be very careful experimenting with anything but the initial service menu that you get with MENU, 2,4,5,7. The settings there can be restored to the OOB condition if you screw it up using the Restore Backup. Other settings do not seem to be stored in the same location, as they are not necessarily reset with that procedure. Even the settings in that menu that come up after you restore beyond the initial few dozen are do not appear to be reset with this method.
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post #88 of 774
10/13/06 at 11:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

I would be very careful experimenting with anything but the initial service menu that you get with MENU, 2,4,5,7. The settings there can be restored to the OOB condition if you screw it up using the Restore Backup. Other settings do not seem to be stored in the same location, as they are not necessarily reset with that procedure. Even the settings in that menu that come up after you restore beyond the initial few dozen are do not appear to be reset with this method.

OK, fair enough, but are there more service menus and if so, how many total?
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post #89 of 774
10/14/06 at 4:42am
MENU 2,4,5,7 gets you to the main service menu.

Pressing the Rew button on the remote gets you test patterns.

Pressing 0 from there gets you to the reset and data transfer menu.

Performing Restore Backup adds many more options to the main service menu, most of which do nothing for now, but a few such as ranges for color management controls that do work on sets with those features.

The PIMS menu is accessed from the main service menu by pressing some number key, but I don't recall what it is.

MENU 2,4,7,0 gets you into the Option menu.

That is what I know of at this time. There may be more options that are not yet documented, but Mits is not talking.
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post #90 of 774
10/14/06 at 8:31am
I went into the service menu and changed my low temp settings to the ones sourcery/john suggested. However everything is yellowish. Could I have done something wrong?
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