The "Official" Yamaha RX-V659 / HTR-5960 Thread! - Page 26

Jasguild,

No, that is incorrect. You will be using the presence speaker's connectors, but the menu procedure I provided assigns the respective amplifiers to power Zone 2 Left and Right (not presence speakers).

In fact if you look at the back of the 659, those particular speaker connectors are labeled "PRESENCE/ZONE2" since they can be used for either function!

See: http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/...l?CNTID=450715

This means the lanai speakers will get a full stereo L/R signal and not the AVR's presence signal, once you adjust the SET MENU as indicated earlier.

XEagleDriver

I know I am exposing my ignorance here even further but I want to make sure I understand what you are saying especially considering this issue is one of the main reasons I am looking at this particular model.

I am loooking for two functionalites

1) to play an independent source out on my lanai. This will allow my wife for eg to be watching her chic flicks inside while I listen to music outside. It is my understanding that the limitation here is that the only source I can send to the lanai (zone 2) is an analog input source, which I think means for eg I cant send sound from my cable box via optical cable to the receiver to amplified through to my lanai(zone 2).

2) to play the exact source as the main source. Ie to act like an A+ B arrangement. There are times I may be having a party and the ladies can be in side and the guys out side. I am hoping that with this arrangement, I wont have a problem sending sound from my htpc via optical cable to the receiver amplified through to the lanai (zone 2) and main.

Are you saying that the arrangement you proposed will be able to accomplish both those functionalities?? If so, how difficult is it to go back and forth using the remote for these two set ups arrangments?

Thanks again for your input

jasguild

Not ignorant at all, in fact just the opposite. It is very wise to investigate these things pre-purchase, vice having disappointment post purchase.

1) Yes, you are correct on both counts in para. #1. You can listen to separate sources (wife chick flick inside, you music outside), BUT to do so the source component (HTPC, cable box, CD player, etc.) has to be connected to the 659 by analog connectors. Keep on reading, all is not lost yet . . .

Here is the rub, to accomplish what you seek depends on the source component's ability to simultaneously send an audio signal out both its digital (optical) and analog outputs. Some source components are able to do this, and others are not (they force a choice, either digital or analog).

If the source component can send out both analog and digital signals at the same time, then you are in business. Because, you can hook up both a digital and analog connection from each source component to the 659, and then tell Zone 2 to look for the necessary analog input, while telling the Main Zone to look for a digital input (same as Zone 2 or independent of Zone 2, your choice). This situation would meet both your goals.

So the long pole in this tent, is the abilities of your cable box, HTPC and any other source components you deem critical.

If the source component can NOT send out both signals at the same time, then you have a pain-in-the-rear situation. Because, you would have to adjust each source component's output (digital or analog) every time you wanted to send the signal inside versus outside; AND you would NOT be able to have both Zones getting the same signal (party time case).

In my case, I used a RX-V565 in a family room, skipped the Zone 2 option, and instead connected the surround back speaker outputs to a speaker selector switch with three sets of speakers on a porch, a deck, and a master bath. I then told the 565 I was "bi-amping" the front mains through the surround back amplifiers (but really didn't). I then used these surround back amplifiers to send a full and complete stereo signal to the speaker selector switch, and in turn my 3 other zones.

What I gave up was the "chick flick inside and music outside" option, but in my case that has never come up as an issue in over a year now, YMMV.

When the kids watch TV in the family room and I want music in the other zones, I pull rank, and they use the TV speakers inside, while I use the 565 on the porch/deck/bath. I set the 565 to "B" speakers (not actually connected) and this inhibits audio in the main zone, but does not interfere with the "bi-amped" surround backs.

XEagleDriver

That makes perfect sense.

On an unrelated note, I have a question about your set up.

What exactly is biamping and what is the advantge of using the Bi-amp arrangement that you described versus just using Speaker B speaker?

Thanks again for your help.

jasguild

Bi-amping in the classical sense is connecting two amplifiers channels to one speaker, by separating the tweeter/mid signal path from the woofer signal path to allow more power to be delivered to each speaker.

This requires a receiver which allows bi-amping (it has assignable amps) and a speaker designed for bi-amping (it has two sets of binding posts and a removable connector plate).

Keep in mind, in my case, I am not bi-amping the speakers, just the receiver. Why, you might ask am I doing this, keep reading below . . .



It is not commonly understood, but in the Yammy as with most receivers, the "A" speakers and the "B" speakers share only one set of amplifiers (one left and one right). Therefore, when using the "A+B" option, each amplifier is actuall driving two speakers in a parallel electrical connection. (Or one amplifier set is driving four speakers if you like.)

This can be difficult for the one lowly amplifier to do, and is why many receivers specify if using A+B, only 8 ohm or greater speakers can be connected!

By giving the receiver the "assign the surround-back amplifiers to bi-amping" command, it forces the receiver to send an identical and complete stereo signal to both the main and surround-back speaker connections.

Then I connect the speaker selector switch to the bi-amped surround backs, and the speaker selector is driven by its own amplifiers and not sharing an amplifier with the "A" speakers!

This is the best and safest way to connect a speaker selector to a receiver, when you still want to have a 5.1 audio in the main room.

A side benefit is, if you select just the "B" speakers, it will turn off audio to the main room, but not prevent audio from going to the suround-back amps and in turn the speaker selector which can route it to any other zones you have, pretty cool!

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

That is quite a bit of information. I think I got it.

Thanks for your time and patience.

all the best!

I was wrong I do have more questions. I have to admit this is very interesting!!!

1) If I understood you correctly, the benefit of your arrangement is that you are able to send full sound to other speaker instead of splitting and putting a strain on an existing amp that is already in use. The disadvantage is, you give up 7.1 sound in the main area and settle instead for 5.1. Is that correct?

if you set up a traditional A/B arrangement (not your sophisticated one), and you select just speaker B, would there still be a strain on the amp considering that A is not receving sound? If in fact B is getting full unsplit sound, then it would seem to me that the benefit of your arrangement is only applicbable if you are comparing the traditional A/B arrangement when its in full use ie 7.1 channels versus yours when its in full use. Is that correct or did I get my wires crossed up again?



2) In your arrangement when you say it force an identical and complete stereo signal, does this mean the sound going to the 2 rear channels will be the full 5.0 sound thats going to the front, center and surround? or will it force just the 2.0 sound identical to the sound going to the front speaker?

3) In your arrangement, what happens when you select speaker A+B?

4) In your arragement, when you have just A selected, what happens? I am assuming just the main room receives sound, is that correct?

5) In your arrangement is the receiver ability to decode and produce 5.1 sound in the main room affected?


Thanks agian for the discussion

Yes you got it!



No strain, you are correct.



I am not sure I follow your question. If I understand you correctly, the advantage comes into play whenever you want to have both the main area and the other zones powered at the same time.



The later, it forces the 2.0 signal. In my case, I am not using a Center speaker (i.e. a phantom center arrangement) due to the room's design. This means the receiver splits the center channel and sends it to the front L & R, so I don't lose anything from the front sound stage to the other zones.



Nothing, because the B speakers are not connected to anything (intentionally to avoid overtaxing the A/B amps).


Not correct, the main zone gets the whole enchilada and the speaker selector switch gets the 2.0 signal we talked about earlier. Which other zones are "active" is a function of the buttons I push on the speaker selector (porch, deck, master bath or any combo there of).

BTW, not having to miss any Superbowl play-by-play while "downloading" my wife's superbowl chili was a bonus (probably TMI ).

To complete the picture, when I select only the "B" speakers; the main zone is mute (quiet), but the speaker selector switch still receives and is able to forward the 2.0 signal to all the other zones--how cool is that! For example, when there is an estrogen convention in the main room, and I am hiding/drinking out on the deck!



No affect, the receiver processes 5.1 normally (other than the phantom center discussed earlier--but that is due to the room, not the speakers/receiver set-up).



Your very welcome!

XEagleDriver

VERY cool indeed and something I will consider if my future needs change.

The only thing that is different though when having a center channel is that the sound going to your 2nd zone is only going to be the sound from the front two speakers. I have a similar set up using the speaker B to my back porch. This causes a problem with football games that are broadcast in 5.1 because the announcers are routed to the center channel and all you'll hear outside is the cheer of the crowd to let you know that you just missed a big play while you were busy flipping the Bratwurst outside

To combat this I have to set my receiver to stereo if I am going to be spending much time outside during the game.

I'm actually shopping around right now for a receiver to upgrade and get a true zone 2 but I am being stopped by a combination of budget and receivers inability to use digital source for the 2nd zone.

I have been digesting your idea and doing my own research. We have been comparing your set up to a traditional Speaker A+B arrangement and you make an excellent point.

however, I am trying to decipher what is the benefit of your arrangment compared to using zone 2. I think I read in the manual that if you use zone 2, the back surround speakers are disabled. This in my lay opinion, would indicate that the amps for the back surround speakers are being used exclusively for zone 2. As such I am assuming there is no sharing/splitting of the amplification.

So what is the advantage or your arrangement versus just using zone 2? One disadvantage is that you lose the ability to have different source to zone 2 but I am sure there is a compelling advantage that means more to you than that option.

thanks

jasguild

Jasguild,

Excellent questions and observations--you are really doing your homework!

1) Simplicity of Daily Operation: By not using Zone 2, I avoid toggling back-and-forth between setting the Main Zone inputs & program and then having to do the same tasks for Zone 2.
Furthermore, Zone 2 only accepts analog inputs and thus requires connecting each desired source component (Cable TV, DVD, etc.) with a set of analog cables in addition to HDMI. If I gave up the HDMI, I could not best support the main zone's surround sound capability or highest quality audio & video.
Lastly, depending on the source component, it may or may not support simultaneous output of digital (HDMI) and analog signals. So, with the Zone 2 option, you may have to either keep changing the source component's output or give up using digital signals in the Main Zone--I did not like either of these options.

2) You are correct, for an internally amplified Zone 2 it is the SURR BACK amps that are assigned to drive Zone 2, and they are not shared--exactly like you deduced.

3) Pretty much covered in the answer to #1. To summarize, simplicity of daily operation, avoid double cabling (HDMI and analog), and avoid having to monkey with source component's output (digital vs analog).

Dual source activities are not important to our use of this system. Therefore, dropping Zone 2's ability to use different sources simultaneously was an easy compromise to make in order to keep the system wife/kid friendly enough for them to use without assistance, and preserve digital signal surround sound in the main zone.

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

That makes sense. I have been using a harmony remote over the past year and its amazing at switching among activities. I havent thought this through as yet, but I am optimisitc that with the harmony I will be able to program the yamaha to efficiently meet my needs.

Worse case scenario, I can always implement your approach

thanks

jasguild

You guys rock. The knowledge and patience you share is amazing.

Here my rookie question....Zone 2 is outdoors for me....will be 4 8" quality planter speakers...is there enough in this to drive them well at 50' away from the reciever ?
Can I/should I preamp Zone 2 ?

Thanks !
Mark

Mark,

FWIW: I have simultaneously driven six speakers in my other zones with the receiver and speaker selector (SS) described earlier.
It meets my needs, but does not have tremendous volume as should be expected.
- Two of the three pairs are about 40-50' away, the other pair is about 20' away.
- I always use the speaker protection on the SS, even though this costs a bit of available power.

So, in your case; the 50' should not to be a factor and driving four speakers should be OK, unless . . .
- You need particularly loud volume.
- Outdoors can be tough, since there are no/less room reflections to increase perceived SPL.

Several other considerations which may change your situation are:
- desired outdoor listening area,
- yard's borders (reflective walls or sound absorbing plants),
- distance to neighbor's homes,
- local police response time to noise complaints .

Bottomline: I would try the receiver's Zone-2 internal amp first.
- With four speakers, be sure to present the correct impedance to the receiver.
This will depend on the outdoor speaker's impedance and the speaker wiring you choose (serial or parallel).
- The 659 does best with an 8-ohm impedance.

If that does not provide the desired volume, then I would buy an external amp and use a preamp Zone-2.


Cheers,
XEagleDriver

I'm just curious what do you all have your delay settings at? I realize we all have different type rooms but I'm starting to wonder if something is wrong with my AVR.

I have it now set at 120ms, and that seems HUGE compared to what it was a few years ago in our other house. We moved into our new house last year and had to set up the AVR much differently than the other house (which I figured), but lately it seems as though the audio is still slightly out of sync.

Stryker,

The room does not matter concerning the AUDIO DELAY feature described on p.91 of the manual.

The Audion Delay needed is a function of the specific LCD display's delay in displaying video images. This creates the need to slow the audio signal just a bit to sync up and avoid the infamous Japanese Godzilla B-movie effect.

What make, model, and age of LCD display are you using?

A post in the LCD forum area specific to your make/model may garner better responses.

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

The TV is only a year old, Samsung 52B750.

Anyone knows how to enable DTS Neo6 for upmixing of stereo source? I can't find Neo6 in the program modes. Dolby Prologic is available though.

I made some changes to my setup to try and eliminate some unneeded wires. I have all my sources going in to the TV via HDMI. I then have an optical cable from my TV to my AVR, but for some reason I'm only getting stereo sound. Is there something I need to enable to get 5.1 from the TV?

The TV is 'advertising itself' to all your HDMI sources as a '2.0 only' capable device. So they are [correctly] sending only 2.0 content to the TV. The optical SPDIF from your TV will, otherwise, likely only carry DD5.1 content from over-the-air broadcast TV signals.

Ok so it's a setting with the TV then, I have looked all over and don't see a way to enable 5.1 in the menus.

It's NOT a setting . . . it's a FEATURE! It's just not a feature you want right now...

Start by plugging every source that is either 5.1/6.1/7.1 or lossless into the AVR.

Yeah I saw that posted somewhere else now too. That really stinks, why would they limit a digital output to only stereo? Very odd..

I have a RXV659 and a Dish Network DVR box. I have it set up with component video connections going from the dish box to the receiver with component video cables (Red, White & Yellow I think) then I have a video cable going from the receiver to the Video2 input on my Sony TV. I also have a standard cable wire going directly from the Dish box to the TV. In the past I could just turn on the TV (without turning on the receiver) and get a picture and sound using only the TV speakers. When I wanted to use the receiver speakers for surround I would turn on the receiver and set it to the DTV/Cable and I got sound and video thru the receiver. The TV speaker still worked in this setup and needed to be muted or turned to very low volumn.

Here is the problem. My wife couldn't get her IPOD to work so she just started pushing buttons on the receiver!!! Now if I turn off the receiver I get no signal to the TV. It still works fine if I run it thru the receiver but I no longer can get the TV signal when the receiver is turned off. I like to just be able to turn on the TV and not run it thru the receiver as well. What do I need to do to get this to happen again.

Thanks in advance

I've about maxed out this unit with every possible input being used, but I'm trying to hang on to analog video as long as possible (component). Consequently, I'm considering a PS3 upgrade to the TrueHD models (120GB and up) to give me the new lossless codecs.

But I'm beginning to think that this may be my downfall...since it doesn't have any analog 5.1 outputs...right? Surely someone makes the appropriate SCART cable for this? Mabye not...

Any suggestions are welcome!

RP

I'm try to figure out an issue that I just noticed on Zone 2. I have a speaker selector hooked up to Zone 2 with 4 sets of speakers. 3 out of the 4 sets work fine, but the 4th (a single stereo BA) won't output the sound if the source is my TV. In other words, speakers 1-3 output sound from Tuner/XM/DVD/TV, but speaker 4 only Tuner/XM/DVD - but not from TV???. I had this working a few months ago, but recently added a digital cable from both the DVD and the TV. Not realizing the Zone 2 only worked with analog, I disconnected the analog cable. When the TV wouldn't output to Zone 2, I realized my mistake, and hooked back up the analog cable. Got my sound back on speakers 1-3, but not 4. Any suggestions? I know I had to change a setting or 2 on the 659 to use the digital cable. Could this be my problem?

First things first: trade in your wife. j/k of course...your wife is only half the problem.

First, if you're using red/wh/yellow, it's not Component, its composite, or RCA if you like. RCA will not pass any HD signals, so I'm not sure if have a HD box or not, but you should look into that...

Also first, even if it's not HD, you're never going to get a 5.1 signal for surround to your reciever without a optical/digital audio cable. Without this, you're shooting yourself in the foot (ie. great receiver, crippled functionality).

I assume when you say "signal" you mean video, not audio?

Now, to try and fix your problem: With the Receiver OFF, is the TV set to the other input (typically labeled "TV") for the coax cable coming direct from the Dish box? You didn't mention anything about this, but if you have two cables going into the TV, you will need to switch that source.

If the input change still doesn't give you signal from the Dish box, then I would completely disconnect all cables from the Reciever to the TV and make sure the TV works standalone. If not, something in the setup of the TV and Dish box is to blame.

Try this first, we'll see whats up...

This is very curious. So the speaker selector box has 4 sets of output speaker posts?

Did you try to switch Sp#3 & Sp#4 maybe? Does the "new" Sp4 still not work?

Yes. It's a Sonance SS4

That's what I was going to try next. SP#4 I believe is my longest cable run, probably about 100ft. I want to see if it follows that speaker (this would be my guess), or is related to SP4 on the speaker selector.