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Epson EMP-TW1000 1080p LCD HDMI1.3 - Page 5

post #121 of 1603
12/6/06 at 5:45am
Epson makes good but cheep projectors and plays in the same league as Sanyo, Hitachi and Panasonic. They are not Runco and they are no other high-end company.
I wouldn't even say they are Mitsubishi, which have made great products so far.

Epson looked like the big star when the price in Japan was announced and everybody had high hopes of the new FullHD from Epson actually being the cheapest on the market, and that by quite a margin.
Why on earth they left that path and decided to directly compete with the others instead of swooping the market with a cheap FullHD, I do not know.

However, I would call it a HUGE mistake to make the new Epson available at such a low price in Japan and then not passing on this price (or at least a comparable price) to the rest of the world.

Either Japan is the biggest market for them or someone in marketing had a really bad day.
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post #122 of 1603
12/6/06 at 6:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

I remember last year I spoke with a few people higher up at Epson regarding the launch of the 550 and 800. It was Epson's intent to make these two projectors their large inroads into home theater in the US. There was a large marketing push to get information on the product in the market place and an attempt to reach a new segment of users than had been tapped before.
Obviously I'm not sure what happened with that initiative - but I think it's clear that the typical AVS Forum member was not their target audience. I kept a very close watch on the 550 last year and kept coming back to the same question - was the Cinema 550 work in the neighborhood of $700 more (~%30) than the street price for the Panasonic 900. No matter what the argument the answer was always no. So, I saved that $700 and put it somewhere else.
I believe that Epson looks at the home theater market much the same way that Runco does - they want to, and do, deal with local installers and are the first company to provide moderatly priced projector options for people looking to install theaters through CEDIA type outfits. Is that a bad thing? No. They provide a top notch product and sell it through a channel that allows both the dealers and themselves to maintain margins on their products. Epson is most certainly not the only company to keep a tight leash on the product prices - it just allows them to dictate who's selling them. While it might not be idea for all of us AVS Forum members - we must understand that they simply - in the US anyway - aren't interested in selling anything to us. There are plenty of other projector companies making kick-ass products. As for the whole HDMI 1.3 thing - there are several other threads debating the merrits of having this on a display given the current (and forseable futue) state of content.
Time will tell.

Its not the pricing -- its the number of dealers. How many are they, where are they? Very few.

If you want to see this projector in action at a dealer, where? 5 places in the entire U.S.?
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post #123 of 1603
12/7/06 at 3:39pm
Any word or timeframe when a review on this projector might be available? I've been putting off getting a projector for a few years now, and this one looks very promising. Hopefully this unit follows Epson's trend of not exagerating specs too much and is a bit brighter that the currently available 1080p projectors.
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post #124 of 1603
12/8/06 at 11:46pm
I notice the U.S. version of this projector, caled the Pro Cinema 1080 apparently, will be available from "CEDIA dealers" and is "ISF-certified". Perhaps the USA version will be a "tweaked" or otherwise souped-up version of a "plain vanilla" Japanese TW1000? Maybe roughly the way InFocus had their US$1000 X1 projector the same time they had the US$1600 ScreenPlay 4800 about three years ago.

If this machine is short-throw enough, I would consider flying to Japan to buy (and test in-person locally) one, since I would still be ahead after buying a US$750 plane ticket...
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post #125 of 1603
12/8/06 at 11:52pm
I doubt there will be two versions.
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post #126 of 1603
12/9/06 at 12:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisW6ATV View Post

I notice the U.S. version of this projector, caled the Pro Cinema 1080 apparently, will be available from "CEDIA dealers" and is "ISF-certified". Perhaps the USA version will be a "tweaked" or otherwise souped-up version of a "plain vanilla" Japanese TW1000? Maybe roughly the way InFocus had their US$1000 X1 projector the same time they had the US$1600 ScreenPlay 4800 about three years ago.

If this machine is short-throw enough, I would consider flying to Japan to buy (and test in-person locally) one, since I would still be ahead after buying a US$750 plane ticket...

Unfortunately this is more "marketing speak" from Epson...... they played this same game with the 800 last year....... Epson's definition of "ISF Certified" (notice they did NOT say calibrated) means that the projector is "Capable" of being calibrated by an ISF technician............ it does not come calibrated.
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post #127 of 1603
12/9/06 at 5:24am
I have not seen this mentioned to the best ok my knowledge but perhaps someone here knows...

1. Absolute Black Technology - what the heck is this? Is it marketing speak for Epson's version of "Dynamic Iris"?

2. What chipset is employed to do the deinterlacing and scaling?
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post #128 of 1603
12/9/06 at 6:32am
Any idea if this thing has actually hit the streets in Japan yet? All I'm finding is press releases.
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post #129 of 1603
12/9/06 at 7:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoStevo View Post

Unfortunately this is more "marketing speak" from Epson...... they played this same game with the 800 last year....... Epson's definition of "ISF Certified" (notice they did NOT say calibrated) means that the projector is "Capable" of being calibrated by an ISF technician............ it does not come calibrated.

You know, that's pretty obvious when you think about it, isn't it? It can't be ISF calibrated because that would take into account the screen/room/etc... It would be irrelevant even if it was calibrated unless you used the same screen, same size, same distance, etc...Duh.
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post #130 of 1603
12/9/06 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoStevo View Post

Unfortunately this is more "marketing speak" from Epson...... they played this same game with the 800 last year....... Epson's definition of "ISF Certified" (notice they did NOT say calibrated) means that the projector is "Capable" of being calibrated by an ISF technician............ it does not come calibrated.


Art from projectorreviews.com seems to disagree with you in his review of the 800.

"What really sets this Epson home theater projector apart from the competition, is color accuracy. This should not be a surprise, since Epson labels the Pro Cinema 800 as being ISF Calibrated, that is, the color saturation, contrast, brightness, and accuracy have been set following the formal ISF standards. Now, normally when we talk about calibrating a projector, we refer to calibrating a specific projector, not thousands of identical projectors. There will be slight differences from one projector to the next, and this is normally the result of variance from lamp to lamp. But wait, even calibrating your own projector, the lamp's output will dim, and there are likely to be minor color shifts to the lamps output as it ages.

Considering all of that, the bottom line is how good is this Epson's color. The most striking thing I can say, is that when I first hooked it up, and viewed some Hi-Def football, and a couple of movies (The Fifth Element, Lord of the Rings), I was immediately impressed in that I found the color to be "right on", or at least, as close as I could expect. There is more variation in color from DVD to DVD, and channel to channel than any error I experienced with the Epson projector."
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post #131 of 1603
12/9/06 at 7:41am
I'm going to have to agree with Joe Black - last year there was a lot of arm waving about how the TW600 I believe was equivalent to the Pro-Cinema 800 despite the large price difference. If you look closely at the user manuals for each you saw that the Pro-Cinema 800 came with distincly different modes in the menu's - very similar to what we are seeing with the new models this year.
While the guts of the two might be equivalent there might likely be significant differences in the menu's between the two in terms of what modes the projectors ship with.
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post #132 of 1603
12/9/06 at 8:09am
Joe,
I'm not arguing that the pj doesn't look fabulous out of the box, so I'm not disagreeing with Art's findings. But here's what Epson's own site says:

With the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 810, Epson has blended engineering ingenuity seamlessly with the world of theater and art. Top-of-the-line technologies are hard at work in this projector, giving you the ultimate movie experience. With ISF calibration, you get the purest image possible. And, installers have complete control to custom fit the picture quality to the surrounding environment utilizing 8 ISF programmable modes with individual memory. In addition, the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 810 offers seven specialized pre-set color modes for optimum performance, whatever the setting or situation.

So it implies that it is indeed ISF certified, meaning ready to be calibrated. It can't possibly be calibrated to produce correct gray scale and colors on your high power screen, my HCCV screen, someone else's Firehawk, someone else's bright white screen, etc....
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post #133 of 1603
12/9/06 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

I'm going to have to agree with Joe Black - last year there was a lot of arm waving about how the TW600 I believe was equivalent to the Pro-Cinema 800 despite the large price difference. If you look closely at the user manuals for each you saw that the Pro-Cinema 800 came with distincly different modes in the menu's - very similar to what we are seeing with the new models this year.
While the guts of the two might be equivalent there might likely be significant differences in the menu's between the two in terms of what modes the projectors ship with.

You can agree with Joe that there are different picture modes that lend themselves to a calibration, but that doesn't equal being calibrated.

This is much the same as the Pioneer Elite plasmas vs. the regular models. The Elites have special modes that allow them to be fully calibrated that the regular models don't.

So unless you're actually going to pay for the calibration after you get the pj, they don't help that much. Let's not mislead people to think that buying the 810 equals having a pj calibrated for their screen/room/etc...because it doesn't.
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post #134 of 1603
12/9/06 at 8:34am
I was responding to Steve's comment saying that the 800 was just marketing speak and doesn't come ISF calibrated. It in fact does and ART confirms this. No one implied that Art or Epson said that it comes calibrated precisely for YOUR room. This is obvious, no projector can do this with all the variables involved in each person's viewing environment.

The key point is that it comes calibrated for color accuracy at each color temp including D65 presets and a range of preset gamma modes that are all set to ISF standards. For example you can select gamma 2.1, 2.2, 2.3 and so on directly thru the menu and try them in your room to see what yields the best picture, colors and shadow detail. It doesn't require an ISF calibrator to select the menu presets. You can do this yourself.

Most other projectors in this range don't have these presets at all, you have to manualy ADJUST the gamma high, medium and lows individually to try and come close to 2.2 instead. For this you need calibration equipment.
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post #135 of 1603
12/9/06 at 8:58am
Not sure but this might help explain what I mean about the advantages of the ISF presets. For example the optimal goal for gamma is 2.2 for the best contrast, shadow detail and overall pq.

The Epson has the gamma presets on their menu;



For example, the AX100 you have this menu for gamma;



With the Epson you can try 2.1, 2.2 or 2.3 to see which yields the best details and pq for your room with relative ease by selecting each in the menu. Or a pro can adjust each in detail great detail with calibration equipment. Your choice

With the AX100 there's gamma high, medium and low, but what combination represents 2.1, 2.2 or 2.3 ? You need either a calibrator or equipement.
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post #136 of 1603
12/9/06 at 10:14am
OK perhaps my post got lost/ignored in the chatter about ISF calibrated vs ISF certified, again does this projector use a Dynamic Iris to provide such a high contrast and also what chipset is employed to handle deinterlacing and scaling?
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post #137 of 1603
12/9/06 at 10:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Black View Post

Not sure but this might help explain what I mean about the advantages of the ISF presets. For example the optimal goal for gamma is 2.2 for the best contrast, shadow detail and overall pq.

The Epson has the gamma presets on their menu;



For example, the AX100 you have this menu for gamma;



With the Epson you can try 2.1, 2.2 or 2.3 to see which yields the best details and pq for your room with relative ease by selecting each in the menu. Or a pro can adjust each in detail great detail with calibration equipment. Your choice

With the AX100 there's gamma high, medium and low, but what combination represents 2.1, 2.2 or 2.3 ? You need either a calibrator or equipement.

Its only a matter of time before manufacturers include a camera/sensor and there is an auto-calibration mode (with options).
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post #138 of 1603
12/9/06 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by imws View Post

OK perhaps my post got lost/ignored in the chatter about ISF calibrated vs ISF certified, again does this projector use a Dynamic Iris to provide such a high contrast and also what chipset is employed to handle deinterlacing and scaling?

By what I can see the TW1000 uses the same DUAL iris setup as the latest ProCinema 810. One iris in front of the lamp and one in the lens.

Here's some info on the 1000 from the Epson's japanese site translated thru google.
Epson 1000 japan
Scroll down that page to see the illustration of the dual iris used.
You can also click on the left side toolbar of the same page where at C2Fine, OptiFocus and some other japanese labels to get more specs and details.
Google should translate them also into something at least legible.

Joe
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post #139 of 1603
12/9/06 at 4:58pm
Anyone know if this Epson does vertical stretch? I'm tempted to import this one if it does as it's not that much more than the Mitsu 3100.
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post #140 of 1603
12/9/06 at 9:16pm
You think the US MSRPs on projectors are crazy? Try Canada! Screw it! When I'm visiting Japan in a month I'm picking up a TW1000. I don't care about the waranty when I can basically buy 2 @ the (guesstimate) US/Canada MSRP. It will come w/ ISF calibrated? Who care? The difference in prices will get me a couple of ISF house visits and more.
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post #141 of 1603
12/9/06 at 10:42pm
Good luck getting one imported though. I was told the shortage is going to go on through this month at least.
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post #142 of 1603
12/10/06 at 3:00am
I live in Los Angeles but visiting Tokyo this week. This afternoon, I was at Akihabara in Tokyo. I was browsing for the Epson TW1000 unit, given that I've been following the forums & having read the thing is cheaper in Japan. Well, I saw a couple of stores carry them, but I saw asking prices of 460,000 YEN or so (more than $4,000). I didn't even bother asking, because it was know where near the $2,500 I was expecting (besides, I am waiting to see how the new JVC turns out). Just thought I'd share that with you all.
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post #143 of 1603
12/10/06 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddanont View Post

I live in Los Angeles but visiting Tokyo this week. This afternoon, I was at Akihabara in Tokyo. I was browsing for the Epson TW1000 unit, given that I've been following the forums & having read the thing is cheaper in Japan. Well, I saw a couple of stores carry them, but I saw asking prices of 460,000 YEN or so (more than $4,000). I didn't even bother asking, because it was know where near the $2,500 I was expecting (besides, I am waiting to see how the new JVC turns out). Just thought I'd share that with you all.


It sounds like you may have just visited the big chain stores on the main street like Yodobashi Camera, Sato Musen and Yamagiwa. These stores rarely have the lowest prices since they target the "tourist" crowd. You need to check the smaller shops in the sidestreets like PC Success. Also, did you have a chance to go to AVAC? They have perhaps the best showroom set-up of any HT dealer in Akihabara. They recently moved to a bigger new location one block over from the main "Electric Street." Using the price quote that AVAC gave me for the Mitsubishi HC-5000 as a yardstick, I seriously doubt that they're selling it for more than $3,000 U.S. I'd check it out for you, but my access to their website is blocked on my work computer.
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post #144 of 1603
12/10/06 at 8:33pm
In regards to Epson's US pricing, here are some facts

*Epson produce all LCD panels used in HT projectors today (except Sony HS60)
*The US is the largest market in the world for HT projectors

Epson would most certainly be able to produce a comparable projector for less money than Panny/Sanyo/Mits, simply because they don't have the additional overhead involved in sourcing the panels from a third party. It is reasonable to assume that there is an agreement in place between Epson and the companies it supplies not to undercut them in what is the most lucrative market in the world. This is actually a preferable situation for Epson, because they don't have to do the heavy lifting involved in designing, manufacturing, advertising and supporting a product. Also, the profit margin on a per unit basis would be much higher than their competitor's.
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post #145 of 1603
12/11/06 at 4:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ktak View Post

It sounds like you may have just visited the big chain stores on the main street like Yodobashi Camera, Sato Musen and Yamagiwa. These stores rarely have the lowest prices since they target the "tourist" crowd. You need to check the smaller shops in the sidestreets like PC Success. Also, did you have a chance to go to AVAC? They have perhaps the best showroom set-up of any HT dealer in Akihabara. They recently moved to a bigger new location one block over from the main "Electric Street." Using the price quote that AVAC gave me for the Mitsubishi HC-5000 as a yardstick, I seriously doubt that they're selling it for more than $3,000 U.S. I'd check it out for you, but my access to their website is blocked on my work computer.

Awe man!! I should've written at least a few days earlier. Great shopping advice you gave, & I would've written down your direction word for word & go browse again. I think I was on that tourist street you mentioned, lined with "duty free" shops & "Softmap" stores. I just could not navigate, given all these nooks & crannies. Talk about sensory overload. ... And no, I didn't see a shop called AVAC, let alone see any place with a decent HT set-up. Damn it! May be next time, & thank you for the clarification.
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post #146 of 1603
12/11/06 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddanont View Post

Awe man!! I should've written at least a few days earlier. Great shopping advice you gave, & I would've written down your direction word for word & go browse again. I think I was on that tourist street you mentioned, lined with "duty free" shops & "Softmap" stores. I just could not navigate, given all these nooks & crannies. Talk about sensory overload. ... And no, I didn't see a shop called AVAC, let alone see any place with a decent HT set-up. Damn it! May be next time, & thank you for the clarification.

No problem. I'm sorry you weren't able to find what you were looking for this trip. If you ever plan a return trip, PM me and I'd be happy to send you the names and locations of some good shops to check out.
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post #147 of 1603
12/11/06 at 7:58pm
I visited Akihabara in 2000 and 2003 and I enjoyed both visits. I just wish my company would have some more work in Narita so I could go back again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddanont View Post

I just could not navigate, given all these nooks & crannies.

The strategy I used was to allow enough time to go down every street until I ran out of stores, then go to the next block and do the same, going the other way. There is one building, right near the JR station, that has three or four floors full of tiny independent dealers of every category of electronic components and equipment you could imagine. Yes, I was very tired at the end of that day.

Quote:


Talk about sensory overload. ...

But, that is a good thing.

Ktak, if I am able to visit again, I may want to ask you for good dealers also.
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post #148 of 1603
12/11/06 at 9:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisW6ATV View Post

IKtak, if I am able to visit again, I may want to ask you for good dealers also.

No problem. Just give me a week or two advance notice if possible so I can check things out. Things change so quickly in Akihabara that even I can't keep up sometimes.
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post #149 of 1603
12/11/06 at 10:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd84 View Post

In regards to Epson's US pricing, here are some facts

*Epson produce all LCD panels used in HT projectors today (except Sony HS60)
*The US is the largest market in the world for HT projectors

Epson would most certainly be able to produce a comparable projector for less money than Panny/Sanyo/Mits, simply because they don't have the additional overhead involved in sourcing the panels from a third party. It is reasonable to assume that there is an agreement in place between Epson and the companies it supplies not to undercut them in what is the most lucrative market in the world. This is actually a preferable situation for Epson, because they don't have to do the heavy lifting involved in designing, manufacturing, advertising and supporting a product. Also, the profit margin on a per unit basis would be much higher than their competitor's.

Correct on all counts... those wondering "why" should take note.

Also- because Epson makes the D6, they also have the "secret recipe" to make them work flawlessly. This info is not shared with competitors.

I've owned 3x panasonic and 1x epson- I much prefer my Cinema 400 to the AE900 I spent some time with.

I.
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post #150 of 1603
12/12/06 at 7:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Illya Friedman View Post

Also- because Epson makes the D6, they also have the "secret recipe" to make them work flawlessly. This info is not shared with competitors.

So now you gotta go and say that. Just when I was ready to pull the trigger on the TW700.

I think I may just have to buy both a TW700 and TW1000 and put them side by side to see if I like the lumens or the resolution better. My guess is that my eyes may not be able to resolve much of the extra resolution, but I will notice the lumens.
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