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Is an External HDD possible w/ a DVDR? - Page 3

post #61 of 315
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSDO View Post

A little help please. Bought a used "e" unit. Just hooked it up and works fine..phew. Dove right in for the "Nextoo design" and ran into a few glitches.

My unit has an 80gb seagate that I connected to a 19" IDE dual cord and it wouldn't boot up. Works fine with a really short IDE but its obviously to short to exteriorize. Is it the cord length or the dual drive capability or both? What length do I need? I chose the flat IDE so it would fit out easier but does a rounded cord function better?

I had to run it out the back because my power to the drive is so short. Can I lengthen the power cord to the drive? How? Can I simply splice it and make it longer?

Thanks for the help

See this post concerning the IDE cable.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8669998


Be careful with power. I used one of these:

http://www.emtcompany.com/products/a...FTzqJAodFjlnAw

Or a similar one. They are sold all over. The link posted was the first one I ran across.

It is a USB to IDE adapter but you only need to use the part that powers the drive - look at the picture, it's the power supply shown. It plugs directly into the HDD and then to the the power source independent of the Polaroid (wall outlet, power strip etc).

I chose not to use the power supply of the Polaroid for this. I didn't want to extend power outside the case. You may try it for testing but I would not recommend it long term.
post #62 of 315
Thread Starter 
DLSDO - if i wasn't clear enough in my last post about the IDE cable you have to reverse the IDE cable where it connects to the Polaroid. Because of the "nub" that is present on most IDE cables this is not possible until you grind down the "nub". I used a dremel to do this. You can use a file or anything else that will get rid of it. Once it is removed attach the IDE cable into the IDE connector backwards - the way it was not possible when the nub was present.
post #63 of 315
Got it!! Used the dremel and now I'm up and runnin'.

Also like you said. MV is weak. From my motorola bmc moxi dvr's dvd player into the polaroid went lord of the rings without a hitch. My fan is quiet. Will get another remote.

Plan for the enclosure and external burner next. 1st I need to find some reasonably priced hard drives

Thanks again for all your help
post #64 of 315
Both IDE cables have 2 connectors for hard drives, right?

If yes, then my guess is that the long cable is bad.
post #65 of 315
I used a 19" standard IDE and dremeled the nub as noted above. Works fine at this length.
post #66 of 315
Anyone tried to connect 2 HD's via a dual IDE simutaneously? Nextoo/Dartman??
post #67 of 315
Nextoo,
Thanks for the above info. I have my HD's and burner external. I like the enclosure your using but I only have 5.75" of height to work with so it won't fit. I have searched for a double bay but all are about 6" tall. I remember your earlier modification had an single bay external enclosure. This would work as I have plenty of width to work with.

Which single bay enclosure did you use?
Were you able to easily swap out the HD's?
I assume you used an external power source as referenced above and an IDE-IDE hard connection from Polaroid-enclosure?

Anything new in your configuration?

Thanks
post #68 of 315
Thread Starter 
DLSDO - if you look at the pics I posted prior to installing the 2 bay drive enclosure I just had the bare DVD burner and the IDE removable drive tray enclosure sitting next to each other vertically. It worked fine. You should be able to set one on top of one another with no problems horizontally. I used black duct tape to wrap the burner with which gave it a more finished look - no kidding it looked good. I powered both of them by using the power supplies that are included in those IDE to USB conversion kits. I think I posted a link for one similar to what I used.
post #69 of 315
Ordered 6 IDE removable drive trays and 2 conversion kits from geeks.com for about $38 after shipping. I am really having alot of fun with your modification. I am looking to buy another polaroid. Will put it in another room and have it just in case. Thanks again!
post #70 of 315
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSDO View Post

Ordered 6 IDE removable drive trays and 2 conversion kits from geeks.com for about $38 after shipping. I am really having alot of fun with your modification. I am looking to buy another polaroid. Will put it in another room and have it just in case. Thanks again!

Nice price. I see they marked down the kit price to $4.85 and the tray price to $2.99. It will not get more reasonable before they are gone.
post #71 of 315
Nextoo, I have been following this thread for awhile and have decided to do the "modification" as a way to record from Hi-def widescreen to my Polaroid, instead of buying the new Tivo.

I want to try and order all of the parts, but just want to confirm, that I understand exactly what I need. I am comfortable with taking apart a PC and installing boards or replacing drives, so I am assuming this won't be more difficult. My real concern is ordering the right parts for the job.

I noticed from the post above you can get the single enclosures and extra trays from the "geek" website. Would this require different connections than using the double enclosure you have in your pictures? Would the cables be the same, just 2 of them? I noticed in an earlier post a comment about using parts from a USB enclosure, is this still needed? Are there specific IDE cable requirements? (I did notice the post about having to "remove" a bump on the cable)

Is there any difference/benefit from one double enclosure for the HD and writer, than 2 single ones? (I am thinking of extra cabling or power supply requirements)

Since my equipment rack may be changing, I was thinking that the 2 single enclosures may be able to be placed on top of the Polaroid, instead of to the side. Would this work or would there be a reason to not do this?

Thanks in advance, your postings have been very helpful.
post #72 of 315
Thread Starter 
I added the two drive enclosure to clean things up a bit. It is not required. What you suggest will work fine.

Parts list for both HDD and DVD burner:

1. 2 IDE cables at least 2 feet long. Rounded or ribbon. The HDD one needs to be modified by removing the nub and then reversed as posted previously. The IDE cable for the burner needs no modification. Use it as is.

2. 2 power adapters. I found these in the IDE to USB kits I mentioned previously. By using these you are powering both the HDD and the burner independent of the Polaroid - takes a huge load off the Polaroid power supply. The two drive enclosure I'm using now eliminates the need for these. Geeks sells these.

3. At least 1 IDE mobile drive rack and as many trays as you would like. These are cheap (the ones at Geeks) so I purchased more than I really need. For example if you decide to get a second Polaroid you can do this mod to the second one. You can then move the drives between units. Also altough I haven't built a Linux box in a few years - I plan on one soon. I wanted an extra drive rack for the Linux PC in an attempt to see if the recorded files are visable under Linux. It's was a no go with Windoze XP.

If you are simply looking to increase HDD capacity then adding the external dvd burner isn't necessary. The only reason I did it was because I could. I also thought it would eliminate the "failed burner syndrome" that tends to haunt DVD recorders regardless of brand. If you do just the HDD mod then just one IDE cable and power adapter is needed - it's not a bad way to start out.

It is simple, simple, simple. And easy.easy,easy. Only tool required is a Philips screwdriver and something to get rid of the nub on the IDE cable. I used a dremel.

Did I mention simple and easy?
post #73 of 315
Thanks for the quick response. I think I have found all of the correct parts, but just want to check on the power adapter. I found this one at Geeks and wanted to know if it would work.
http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?Inv...DE-N&cpc=RECOM

Finally, If I buy the extra empty trays now, are they trays that could be used in the 2 drive enclosure later on? I am not sure if these are "standard" items or are different for each manufacturer.
post #74 of 315
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAH View Post

Thanks for the quick response. I think I have found all of the correct parts, but just want to check on the power adapter. I found this one at Geeks and wanted to know if it would work.
http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?Inv...DE-N&cpc=RECOM

Finally, If I buy the extra empty trays now, are they trays that could be used in the 2 drive enclosure later on? I am not sure if these are "standard" items or are different for each manufacturer.

Yes that is it. Wow $5.99. That is really cheap. You just need the power adapter pictured to the right.

With the two drive enclosure you install the entire IDE mobile drive rack into one of the drive bays. The IDE mobile drive rack is designed to be installed into a computer case. So yes the trays will work with the rack installed. You can buy the two drive enclosure in the future if you want to.

Also, as far as the IDE mobile drive rack. You need the drive rack - it comes with one tray. You can purchase additional trays. The trays and racks are not standard. The are designed differently by manufacturers. Once Geeks is out it they may be harder to find. Especially at the price right now.
post #75 of 315
Thread Starter 
Here's two more DVD burner replacements:

Sony DRU-120C (September 2006 build)

LG GSA-H10N (June 2006 build) Also an excellent replacement for Toshiba.

You can pick them up cheap at buy..com. After google checkout I think I paid $25 including shipping (shipping was free). You just need to get the order up over $50 to get $20 off.

I listed the build dates as reference. I don't think they are important.

Also you can record in one drive and finalize in another - across brands. Burn in a Sony and finalize in an LG.

This may be important if your burner goes and you have unfinalized discs laying around. The replacement should finalized them with no problems.
post #76 of 315
Just an off the wall thought about not being able to see the stored files on a PC:

The Netgear NAS "toaster" SC101 is like that:

SC101 uses SAN File System (SFS) and is not compatible with NTFS, so knowing the differences in file system will help prevent problems on SC101. Others say it uses the Zetera-Filesystem. Maybe these are the same.

What is interesting is that the Netgear is really not a NAS because it only talks to Windows PC's w/installed drivers. Well... that wasn't really what was interesting... What IS interesting is that they DID NOT use a popular file system even when it is clear that the utility of the unit would benefit if they did.

They may have done this because of patents/royalties (guessing), but probably driven by costs. So maybe they shot for the lowest cost solution.

Maybe Polaroid did the same thing.

Maybe the Polaroid HD's would be recognized by the SC101.

Now, wouldn't THAT be amazing.

Tom
________________________________________________

PS. Still reading up on 2001G and is the following is still true?: 1) can't see HD content on PC, and 2) no way to move content directly from one HD to another HD.

PPS. Has anyone tried contacting HD recovery outfits to see if they know anything (of course, they may be very tight lipped.) Of maybe they would offer to convert the HD content for a small fee.
post #77 of 315
Thread Starter 
6volt - very interesting. Here's my experience so far. I can set up an NTSF partition on an HDD under Windows XP. I can then install that same drive into the Polaroid. I can record to the drive.

I can then take that same drive back to Windows XP and the drive will be recognized as an allocated NTSF partition under disk manager (so the Polaroid didn't change the NTSF file system when installing the drive to the Polaroid). The drive also shows up under MY Computer. No files visible. When checking the properties of the drive if the drive was half full with recordings from the Polaroid it will show as half full under properties in Windows. I've adjusted under folder options for windows to show eveything down to the system file level. Still no Polaroid files.

Now I can take the same HDD under windows disk manager and unallocate the NTFS partition. Of course the warning "everything will be lost if you're crazy enough to do this message" appears. But even after removing the disk partition under windows when the drive is installed back in the Polaroid the recorded files are still there. They were not lost.

Also, a new drive fresh out of the box will work fine with the Polaroid while never even being near a Windows PC.

So is there a relationship between the Polaroid and NTSF? Perhaps. I really don't know. It's beyond my pay grade. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
post #78 of 315
I tried an Lite-On SHM-165H6S yesterday with only partial succes. Meaning the Polaroid didn't have problem starting up. The drive responded to the remote command to open and loaded a previously recorded (on the Polaroid) dvd. It showed the recording on it and started to play but stopped hanging with a frozen pic on the display, (the 2100G didn't lockup). I was able to unload the dvd fine. I also tried an actual movie (Thin Red Line) which I had watched previously on the Polaroid's existing drive and it hung at the FBI warning and would not advance past it. There also seemed to be a bit of macro blocking/pixellation.

I tried the Lite-On both as master and cable select also. The drive was brand new out of the box. I may have to order one of the Sony 120C that have worked for Nextoo and give it a shot. My unit is a 'G'.
post #79 of 315
It sounds like Windows and Polaroid are able to use the HD firm ware, however, what is actually written on the drive is different.

IN PARTICULAR: Mention that Netware FS is much faster and hence used in Netware Servers is a hint.

Consider how the Polaroid HD files are accessed: streaming AND chase play. This is a very different priority from a PC platform - especially the streaming part which I suspect is true since error correction is of little importance when viewing video.

THEREFORE, the Polaroid probably has some file system that performs better for its application.

I think I have heard of pauses and frame loses on PC's from HD shenanigans. In particular, years ago, Maxtor or someone came out with an AV HD which did not do thermal recalibrations which totally screwed up a stream.

What might be interesting would be to see if it was possible to make a drive image of a Polaroid drive so that the entire drive could be copied. That would be a big help.
_____________

I lifted this small list of file systems. UDF sounds interesting.

What are file systems?

As I wrote in module 4a, drives are storage media, which can hold a file system. When a disk is formatted in a drive, it becomes organized and prepared to receive data. When we format a disk, it receives a file system .

Formatting can be compared to starting a library. You must install the book shelves and the catalogue system before any books are put in place. Once the library is ready, bring on the books! Similarly with a disk. When we format it, we "burn in" a file system to make it ready to receive data (files).

We can format with any one of several different file systems:

FAT
File Allocation Table is the original, old 16 bit DOS system is probably used in 90% of all PC's. It is also called FAT16 contrary to:
FAT32
This is a new addition to FAT, which Microsoft introduced with Windows 95 B - the December -96 version (OSR2). The performance has been even improved with Windows 98.
HPFS
High Performance File System is from OS/2. It is an advanced 32 bit file system, which in all respects is far superior to FAT, except for possible usage. It can only be used with OS/2.
NTFS from Windows NT
A 32 bit file system like HPFS, but not compatible with it. NTFS can only be used in Windows NT/2000/XP. If it was available for use in Windows 95/98, it may be preferable to FAT and FAT32.
NetWare
NetWare is a server operating system from Novell. It has its own 32 bit file system. For that reason, the Novell server, contrary to NT or OS/2 servers, cannot be used as a work station. The file system is much faster than FAT, but it works only with Novell servers (typically file servers).
ISO 9660
This is for CDROMs and ISO 13346 for DVDs.
UDF
Universal Disk Format is for big capacity disks like DVD RAM. UDF is not directly supported by older versions of Windows , you need a driver.
UNIX
UNIX servers have their own filing system. Here the use of upper/lower case in file naming is significant. Read in the following pages about the concepts of these file systems.
post #80 of 315
ADDED THOUGHTS:

If a HD is designed to read and write a stream simultaneously, there is concern about the HD head alternating between the two drive locations.

If you consider a sector's position like hours of a clock, the access time from a 12 oclock sector to each of the other 11 hours varies with definite minimum(s) and maximum(s).

A special FS would probably store files such that you are always jumping from min to min and never make a max jump.

Notice on a PC when a HD gets completely full, if you write a file on that last fragmented space, the drive really slows down because it is doing a lot of max writes.

This never happens when you completely fill up a HDD DVDR unit.

Probably because of the FS.

I suspect the only way to access the Polaroid drive is thru data recovery software or some assembler programming maybe on a Linux platform.

But then again, doesn't TiVO use Linux???

________________________________

Oh No, just did a search on "streaming file system" and everything I said is probably true and much worse. In particular "ATSC Streaming File System" (ugh)
post #81 of 315
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by z3scott View Post

I tried an Lite-On SHM-165H6S yesterday with only partial succes. Meaning the Polaroid didn't have problem starting up. The drive responded to the remote command to open and loaded a previously recorded (on the Polaroid) dvd. It showed the recording on it and started to play but stopped hanging with a frozen pic on the display, (the 2100G didn't lockup). I was able to unload the dvd fine. I also tried an actual movie (Thin Red Line) which I had watched previously on the Polaroid's existing drive and it hung at the FBI warning and would not advance past it. There also seemed to be a bit of macro blocking/pixellation.

I tried the Lite-On both as master and cable select also. The drive was brand new out of the box. I may have to order one of the Sony 120C that have worked for Nextoo and give it a shot. My unit is a 'G'.

Strike that on off the list then.

The 4 I've listed seem to have 100% compability. I would look to the Sony's I've posted or the LG. The BT is an older drive and probably cnnot be found.

I knew the LG would work because I put one in a Toshiba DKR2 a few months ago. I also tested it with the Polaroid and it worked fine. The first Sony I tried a couiple months ago just happened to be laying around too so I guess I got lucky. I was happy to see the newer model Sony worked too.
post #82 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextoo View Post

Strike that on off the list then...



I was happy to see the newer model Sony worked too.

You gave the Sony DRU-120C a full test verifying all functionality, just to clarify b4 I pull the trigger on one from newegg?

TIA
Scott
post #83 of 315
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by z3scott View Post

You gave the Sony DRU-120C a full test verifying all functionality, just to clarify b4 I pull the trigger on one from newegg?

TIA
Scott

Scott - the DRU-120C worked great. No problems. I can't say I did exhaustive testing over a period of weeks but it did not choke on any of the functions of the Polaroid. And the original Sony I have been using for over a month now has performed with no problems. You should be fine.

I wish I would have posted my results sooner. I picked mine up from buy..com. With google check (and a Farmers Almanac to get the price up to over $50) my net delivered on the Sony was $25. Price was the reason I decided to give it a try.

Post your results. It should perform flawlessly.
post #84 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextoo View Post

Scott - the DRU-120C worked great. No problems. I can't say I did exhaustive testing over a period of weeks but it did not choke on any of the functions of the Polaroid. And the original Sony I have been using for over a month now has performed with no problems. You should be fine.

I wish I would have posted my results sooner. I picked mine up from buy..com. With google check (and a Farmers Almanac to get the price up to over $50) my net delivered on the Sony was $25. Price was the reason I decided to give it a try.

Post your results. It should perform flawlessly.

Thanks nextoo just wanted to make sure it ran disks w/o any hiccups such as the Lite-On had. I believe Lite-On is producing some rebadges for Sony and realize the 120C may not be one but that raised my concern. I have a few other drives mostly LO's and Nec's I might play with to see if they work. I do know someone perhaps, you tried some NEC drive w/o success though. I appreciate all the work you have done. I've been following the threads on the 2100G for quite awhile and have had good luck using mine.

I will update after getting my Sony as well. (I saw the deal you posted on 120's but was too late )

I know you mentioned the build date but any chance you looked at the firmware version on the DRU 120C that you ran with?
post #85 of 315
Thread Starter 
I just retested the Sony and everything worked as it should.

One thing to mke note of. When using a different burner you should not eject the tray using the button on the burner. You need to use either the remote eject button or the eject button on the Polaroid. If you use the eject button on the burner to insert a disc the Polaroid will not see it.
post #86 of 315
Thread Starter 
Cancel your order for the Sony 120. It does not play commercial DVDs as it should. I'm going to retest the LG.
post #87 of 315
Thread Starter 
Same problem with the LG. It does everything BUT play commercial DVDs.

Off the list too. Hopefully I didn't inconvience anybody by posting the two new burners.

The good list is the following then:

Sony DW-Q30A
BTC D33040

It may be tougher that I thought to find a compatable burner. I never thought playing a commercial DVD would be a problem.

The two that work I just happened to have laying around. It's making me now think that the odds were similiar to getting struck by lightening. There are others out there they just have to be identified.
post #88 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextoo View Post

Cancel your order for the Sony 120. It does not play commercial DVDs as it should. I'm going to retest the LG.

Thanks nextoo luckily I ordered through newegg and it was a weekend. I got it cancelled np.

Can't remember if anyone has popped the cover off the existing drive to see what is in there. Maybe I'll have to do that.

I also wondered if the cable which appears to be a 40??? conductor ide might be the issue? I tried mine with a 80 conductor maybe if I tried the existing cable it would work or maybe they have the cable "customized" like the hard drive "bass ackwards"

Thanks for the update. I'll do some digging on my unit and report back too.
post #89 of 315
Just saw your post on the other two drives are ok and the LG being a no go. I'm going hunting for the Sony DW-30A next.
post #90 of 315
Nextoo - If you are not planning on playing commercial DVD's from the Polaroid will the other drives listed work as a burner/ player for just the Polaroid created DVD's?
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