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JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub - Page 50

post #1471 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepracing View Post

...Would adding one of those fancy foldable 4 pane partitions help keep the bass in the room or does it need to actually be sealed off?

Thanks guys, learning alot.

I think those partitions are too flimsy and flexible to do much good. You need something fairly rigid to accomplish what you want.
post #1472 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepracing View Post

Is it a waste of time trying to get big hit you in the chest bass if the room cannot be sealed from the rest of your house ?

I have the def tech 7001 mains and the 3000 center all have subs and was going to just add one f113 in the rear corner.

The room itself is 12 x 20 x 8 but the back wall is completely open to the first level which in total is 5100 cubic ft. To add to that the stairs are open so do I have to try and fill the entire 2nd level 2 which would prob add another 1000 or so even with all the doors closed upstairs.


Would adding one of those fancy foldable 4 pane partitions help keep the bass in the room or does it need to actually be sealed off?

Thanks guys, learning alot.

This depends on what you mean by hit you in the chest bass. Impact bass is attainable in almost all reasonable spaces. True room pressurization requires an enclosed space and the appropriate SPL to fill it. Most here do not have rooms that have been built for or retrofitted to optimize sound. I have an open floor plan house and my system is located in an impossibly large 8000 ft³ room that is open to even larger spaces. I have tried many sub combinations (including dual Velo DD-18's) and currently have dual JL F113's placed within 10' of my primary seats. These subs integrate nicely into the room and give a very satisfying level of bass for music and movies (my use is 50/50). I know that in this room, I will never get the same bass effects that someone who has a sealed 2000 ft³ space can achieve.
post #1473 of 6759
Rob is right as usual.

My 3500cf HT used to open to another 8500cf space and pressurizing the room was impossible even with 2 subs. Nearfield listening helped but I didn't like the improper phaseing the subs caused when they were too far from the mains. Once I sealed off a 8ft opening and then damped the room with acoustical treatments and traps, there was a major improvement in SQ not just to the bass.

I've had as many as 5 subs in the HT but currently I'm expereincing substantial amounts of clean, dynamic, visceral, "in your chest and pants" bass with a pair of non-colocated DD-18 and EP600 subs. According to conventional wisdom matching sealed and ported subs should cause other issues, but I haven't detected any audible or measurable problems in my room.
post #1474 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by jiujitsu35 View Post

Yes I am the one that is selling the f113.I'm totally legit.I'm only selling because I only needed one.I will say this sub is incredlble

Believe me if I had the cash I would have jump on that F113 ....But it's more than want not a need...

Good luck..

djoel
post #1475 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman View Post

Rob is right as usual.

My 3500cf HT used to open to another 8500cf space and pressurizing the room was impossible even with 2 subs. Nearfield listening helped but I didn't like the improper phaseing the subs caused when they were too far from the mains. Once I sealed off a 8ft opening and then damped the room with acoustical treatments and traps, there was a major improvement in SQ not just to the bass.

I've had as many as 5 subs in the HT but currently I'm expereincing substantial amounts of clean, dynamic, visceral, "in your chest and pants" bass with a pair of non-colocated DD-18 and EP600 subs. According to conventional wisdom matching sealed and ported subs should cause other issues, but I haven't detected any audible or measurable problems in my room.

I am thinking of trying this same thing with my F112 and my Earthquake Supernova MKV-15, (well actually the Earthquake sub uses a PR instead of ports, but it's still a reflex and a sealed sub combo). Actually, I'm thinking of getting a second F112 and selling the Earthquake sub. In the meantime, I may try the combo to see how I like it.

Craig
post #1476 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I am thinking of trying this same thing with my F112 and my Earthquake Supernova MKV-15, (well actually the Earthquake sub uses a PR instead of ports, but it's still a reflex and a sealed sub combo). Actually, I'm thinking of getting a second F112 and selling the Earthquake sub. In the meantime, I may try the combo to see how I like it.

Craig

The twin F113 club is growing!
post #1477 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I am thinking of trying this same thing with my F112 and my Earthquake Supernova MKV-15, (well actually the Earthquake sub uses a PR instead of ports, but it's still a reflex and a sealed sub combo). Actually, I'm thinking of getting a second F112 and selling the Earthquake sub. In the meantime, I may try the combo to see how I like it.

Craig

I have similar setup; Just got my f113 3 days ago and also own an Earthquake Supernova MKV-12. I'm also contemplating selling my earthquake and going with twin f113s.. let me know how you like your f112 + MKV-15 combo
post #1478 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman View Post

Rob is right as usual.

My 3500cf HT used to open to another 8500cf space and pressurizing the room was impossible even with 2 subs. Nearfield listening helped but I didn't like the improper phaseing the subs caused when they were too far from the mains. Once I sealed off a 8ft opening and then damped the room with acoustical treatments and traps, there was a major improvement in SQ not just to the bass.

I've had as many as 5 subs in the HT but currently I'm expereincing substantial amounts of clean, dynamic, visceral, "in your chest and pants" bass with a pair of non-colocated DD-18 and EP600 subs. According to conventional wisdom matching sealed and ported subs should cause other issues, but I haven't detected any audible or measurable problems in my room.

jakeman
Looks like you have found a sub combo that's working. Are you able to pressurize your room with your current setup? How many EP600's are you running with your twin DD-18's?
post #1479 of 6759
I am heavily leaning towards the f 113 over the dd 18 but does anyone have a problem with thinking the dd 18 has to be better just due to shear size? I know the f113 has more travel but it just sounds to good to be true
post #1480 of 6759
The only advantage the DD-18 has over the JL is the onboard SMS the Velo has. Performance wise, the JL is KING!
post #1481 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpy15 View Post

I have similar setup; Just got my f113 3 days ago and also own an Earthquake Supernova MKV-12. I'm also contemplating selling my earthquake and going with twin f113s.. let me know how you like your f112 + MKV-15 combo

Well, I tried it and I'm back to the single F112. It sounded boomier and sloppier with the two together. It also measured badly with the SMS-1 and I couldn't correct it due to the fact that I was controlling both subs with one SMS-1. I couldn't get the combined response to be flat.

How do you use the ARO with dual F112's? Do you do each one individually, or just use the Master ARO for both? After my experience with the F112/Earthquake, I'm a little concerned that one or even two bands of parametric EQ can do as good a job with two subs.
Quote:


The only advantage the DD-18 has over the JL is the onboard SMS the Velo has. Performance wise, the JL is KING!

Notwithstanding my concern above, I'm not sure I would agree that the Velo's onboard EQ is all that much better than ARO. In my thread from the other day, I showed how well the ARO flattened my room response -- and it did it quicker than a manual eq with the SMS-1.

Craig
post #1482 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

How do you use the ARO with dual F112's? Do you do each one individually, or just use the Master ARO for both? After my experience with the F112/Earthquake, I'm a little concerned that one or even two bands of parametric EQ can do as good a job with two subs.Craig

Hi Craig,

Of course not all rooms give the same results. JL recommends using Master/Slave when using multiple Fathoms. You make all of you settings and run the ARO from the Master sub. If they are co-located then your single sub FR should be very similar with two, but give you another 6db output. I have my dual F113's separated by about 9' along the front wall just inside my mains. I have a room generated peak at 60hz that ARO won't touch that I am hoping to tame with an SMS-1. Want to sell yours?
post #1483 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepracing View Post

I am heavily leaning towards the f 113 over the dd 18 but does anyone have a problem with thinking the dd 18 has to be better just due to shear size? I know the f113 has more travel but it just sounds to good to be true

Sheer size here means ...next to nothing. Why?

The JL Audio 13.5" driver can move more air,linear or pear to peak than the DD18 18" woofer. More displacement for the f113.

The overall quality of the JL is better also,built quality here. Like it or not Audioholics was very gracious and easy on Velodyne to give a five star rating for built. Five star is perfect or close,did the author ever see what a five star built sub is???? The box looks great from the outside,on the inside nothing special,yeah yeah does the job bur no attention to detail is present.Look in the JL,another class,look in Aerial Acoustics sub...again this is five star built quality. Take apart a JL,Aerial and Velodyne.


JL all the way
post #1484 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgb540 View Post

The only advantage the DD-18 has over the JL is the onboard SMS the Velo has. Performance wise, the JL is KING!

I didn't come out that way. I took a long hard look at both those subs before buying the DD-18 and price was not an issue. The FL113 has more output at 20hz but that comes with more THD. Setting the servo setting at 8 results in lower distortion than any sub I have every researched including the JL113. If one wants more output then lowering the servo does that and also causes more THD. It is still quite low by any standard. Linearity is very close but here again I believe the DD has slightly better performance across the entire band.

I have to say though that these differences are so slight as not to be audibly different when you compare the two subs. I have to cut response at 20hz with the DD at my sidewall placement so the higher output there is not a factor for me.

My suggestion is that the sonic characteristics of these subs are so close that you should let size or need for more sophisticated equalization determine which way you go.
post #1485 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Static Wick View Post

jakeman
Looks like you have found a sub combo that's working. Are you able to pressurize your room with your current setup? How many EP600's are you running with your twin DD-18's?

At one time I had an Ultra, a pair of EP500s and a pair of EP600s in the HT. Until last week, I had a pair of ep600s and the dd18 but just sold an ep600. The Velo and Axiom work very well together, with the velo mid right sidewall and the axiom on the mid left sidewall. The subs pressurize the room nicely. I had The Bogg (Asher) for a demo a few weeks ago and there was no lack of chest thumping and pants flapping which only comes from a good sealed room and powerful articulate linear subs.

The subs are crossed at 100hz to 7 Totem Model One monitors. The DD-18 comes with SMS on board and I also have an outboard SMS which I use with the EP600. At those placements I actually need minimal equalization owing to the very linear response of both those subs. My main focus was dialling in phase between the subs and with the mains which took some time and listening. Not having the phase right can cause many other problems.

I took a picture of FR which I can post but its in my camera back home and I am currently skiing at Telluride, Colorado. FR is quite flat from 10hz to 200hz.
post #1486 of 6759
Without telling me every ridiculously low price paid...what is a reasonable best street price for the F113? I want to buy one but want to be educated.

Thanks.
post #1487 of 6759
Looking for advice for replacing my B&W ASW 2500 sub. I have an all Thiel system (except sub) in an 18 x 22 theater. I listened to the JL Audio f112 (no f113 available) and will be listening to the Thiel SS2 and REL B2 at a different dealer (with different speakers). Anyone have thoughts regarding f113 vs. REL vs. Thiel for my situation? Unfortunately, I won't be able to do a direct comparison since no one dealer has both the Thiel and JL subs.
post #1488 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolstrategist View Post

Without telling me every ridiculously low price paid...what is a reasonable best street price for the F113? I want to buy one but want to be educated.

Thanks.

I called a local dealer and they wanted $3,300. I drove an hour away and picked mine up for $2,449 + tax, gloss finish. I'm not sure what others have paid.
post #1489 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by hma View Post

Looking for advice for replacing my B&W ASW 2500 sub. I have an all Thiel system (except sub) in an 18 x 22 theater. I listened to the JL Audio f112 (no f113 available) and will be listening to the Thiel SS2 and REL B2 at a different dealer (with different speakers). Anyone have thoughts regarding f113 vs. REL vs. Thiel for my situation? Unfortunately, I won't be able to do a direct comparison since no one dealer has both the Thiel and JL subs.

Nothing can touch the F113 in my opinion.
post #1490 of 6759
expect, on average, 10-15% off. There are many people claiming they get more money off, or you should expect to get more money off the retail, but put yourself in the dealers shoes. Don't expect them to fall all over themselves just to save you money, its how they keep the lights on. That being said, it never hurts to shop around!
post #1491 of 6759
Hello,

I just got my f113 connected and tuned in with my SMS1. I have to agree with Jakeman my DD18 is marginally better in my room. Don't get me wrong I think for the money without spending more on the DD18 the f113 is the way to go. I have my DD18 in the marketplace, I am going to pull it and think this one out before I sell. It is amazing how they get a sub to produce great bass with such a small enclosure. I also have a DTS 20 and the Klipsch Ultra subs the Klipsch subs are a very close second. The DTS 20 it is understandably in a whole different league. My opinion on what I heard in my theater.

rmlowz
post #1492 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmlowz View Post

Hello,

I just got my f113 connected and tuned in with my SMS1. I have to agree with Jakeman my DD18 is marginally better in my room. Don't get me wrong I think for the money without spending more on the DD18 the f113 is the way to go. I have my DD18 in the marketplace, I am going to pull it and think this one out before I sell. It is amazing how they get a sub to produce great bass with such a small enclosure. I also have a DTS 20 and the Klipsch Ultra subs the Klipsch subs are a very close second. the DTS 20 it is understandably in a whole different league. My opinion on what I heard in my theater.

rmlowz

Did you try the ARO, instead of the SMS-1? I recently posted a thread about my experience with an F112 and ARO with the SMS-1. I was surprised how well the ARO worked, and it was easier than the SMS-1's manual EQ.

Craig
post #1493 of 6759
Hello,


I will try the ARO next without the SMS1. I am so used to the SMS1, I just took it out of the box and connected it to the SMS1 and started calibrating.

rmlowz
post #1494 of 6759
rmlows. Life's hard when you have both a DD-18 and a JL113 in your room. Dual subs always perform better than any one sub and you have one of the killer duals. I am actually thinking through whether to move the ep600 to my TV room and buy either a JL113 or another DD-18. These subs are so close sonically they would probably blend very well.
post #1495 of 6759
Can somebody explain to me the reasoning for pairing two dissimilar subs?

I read a white paper, a while back, that went into all the reason NOT to mix subs. I don't recall them all but the one that "stuck" was that because of the differences in frequency response the result was reinforcement on those frequencies both subs reproduced (or reproduced louder) and not on the ones that were more prevalent in one or the other sub.

Apparently a new discovery has been made and I am not aware of it.
post #1496 of 6759
Hello,

It is just a hobby for me not a new discovery . My room is 15.5 wide x 18 deep x 8 foot high ceilings. I really only need one sub, but its this forum and my interest in always trying to find something better that makes me get different systems. I change out often. When I buy buying 2 of the same does not make sense to me. I will say though 2 subs of any manufacture sounds much better in my room it is not even marginal it makes a big difference. My two cents.

rmlowz
post #1497 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmlowz View Post

Hello,

I just got my f113 connected and tuned in with my SMS1. I have to agree with Jakeman my DD18 is marginally better in my room. Don't get me wrong I think for the money without spending more on the DD18 the f113 is the way to go. I have my DD18 in the marketplace, I am going to pull it and think this one out before I sell. It is amazing how they get a sub to produce great bass with such a small enclosure. I also have a DTS 20 and the Klipsch Ultra subs the Klipsch subs are a very close second. The DTS 20 it is understandably in a whole different league. My opinion on what I heard in my theater.

rmlowz

I struggled with that same decision (DD-18 vs F113).
That is quite a collection of subwoofers, do you have any pictures you can post? I would like to see how you have those placed in your room.
post #1498 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by John F. Palacio View Post

Can somebody explain to me the reasoning for pairing two dissimilar subs?

I read a white paper, a while back, that went into all the reason NOT to mix subs. I don't recall them all but the one that "stuck" was that because of the differences in frequency response the result was reinforcement on those frequencies both subs reproduced (or reproduced louder) and not on the ones that were more prevalent in one or the other sub.

Apparently a new discovery has been made and I am not aware of it.

Good question. I am about to buy a F113 to replace my ACI Maestro but now I am wondering if I should ADD the F113 to the mix.

Hopefully someone can elaborate.
post #1499 of 6759
Hello,


Quote:
I struggled with that same decision (DD-18 vs F113).
That is quite a collection of subwoofers, do you have any pictures you can post? I would like to see how you have those placed in your room.

I don't have any pictures, but I need to because you would not believe how lucky I got placing the DTS20 under- behind the screen in a cove. It looks custom! The Klipsch are placed on both side of the center channel and the DD18 mid point on one wall and the f113 mid point on the opposite wall. I only have 2 on at a time.

rmlowz
post #1500 of 6759
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmlowz View Post

Hello,


Quote:
I struggled with that same decision (DD-18 vs F113).
That is quite a collection of subwoofers, do you have any pictures you can post? I would like to see how you have those placed in your room.

I don't have any pictures, but I need to because you would not believe how lucky I got placing the DTS20 under- behind the screen in a cove. It looks custom! The Klipsch are placed on both side of the center channel and the DD18 mid point on one wall and the f113 mid point on the opposite wall. I only have 2 on at a time.

rmlowz

I would like to see pictures of that setup. You show amazing restraint, I would have had to fire them all up at least one time just to see what would happen.
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