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JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub - Page 104

post #3091 of 6764
Both subs are excellent performers and each one does some things better than the other so it does become a matter of what attributes are more important. Having had the opportunity to critically listen to both subs in two shootouts over several hours with a half dozen friends I'd make the following observations.

JL113 outperforms the Ultra-13 in articulation, musical presentation, WAF, mid to upper bass output, headroom and bandwidth, attack and decay of bass transients, quality and reliability of amp, lower noise and distortion, one shot equalization, no port chuffing. Contrary to some reports, output as measured using the CEA2010 standard favours the JL113 except when the Ultra-13 is in maximum output mode tuned at 20hz where both subs have the same distortion weighted output.

Ultra-13 bests the JL113 in visceral impact, reproduction of organ music, low bass output and extension, variable tuning, significantly lower price .

Overall the consensus favourite at the shootouts was the JL113 based on sonic quality and overall performance in music and HT but that quality comes at a big difference in price. With all due respect to other people's ranking, the Ultra-13 is a fine sub but its not the equal of the JL113.
post #3092 of 6764
Very nice post thanks for your insight.
post #3093 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman View Post

Both subs are excellent performers and each one does some things better than the other so it does become a matter of what attributes are more important. Having had the opportunity to critically listen to both subs in two shootouts over several hours with a half dozen friends I'd make the following observations.

JL113 outperforms the Ultra-13 in articulation, musical presentation, WAF, mid to upper bass output, headroom and bandwidth, attack and decay of bass transients, quality and reliability of amp, lower noise and distortion, one shot equalization, no port chuffing. Contrary to some reports, output as measured using the CEA2010 standard favours the JL113 except when the Ultra-13 is in maximum output mode tuned at 20hz where both subs have the same distortion weighted output.

Ultra-13 bests the JL113 in visceral impact, reproduction of organ music, low bass output and extension, variable tuning, significantly lower price .

Overall the consensus favourite at the shootouts was the JL113 based on sonic quality and overall performance in music and HT but that quality comes at a big difference in price. With all due respect to other people's ranking, the Ultra-13 is a fine sub but its not the equal of the JL113.

Hi Jakeman - that's what I got out of your sub thread (I think you had an Axiom sub - the 500?, the Velo 18 and a Paradigm Servo in there too!).

But what some people don't realize is that the Fathom retails for about $5500 up here, whereas the Ultra is $1700 (before shipping). So, that is a significant price difference to say the least (the Velo DD-18 is 5 grand retail here too).

But all that being said - this is a JL thread, not a this vs. that thread. Would hate to see this thread shut down because of a few "my sub is better than your sub" comments.

Suffice to say the owners of the SVS will like it better, the owners of the JL will like it better, and leave it at that. I've heard neither - but other than some amp issues with the Ultra (which SVS responded to immediately) both sound like excellent subs and excellent values.

For me, I doubt the Fathom can be beat in terms of size and performance. No offense to anyone, but IMO it doesn't take a lot of talent or research to build a sub the size of a fridge and have it go low and play well. On the other hand, build a sub that sight wise is almost invisible in a room (like the Fathom) but sound wise puts those 400lb monstrosties to the test - now that equals a great value.

Just think - one day we'll have a sub the size of a shoe box that can play as clean and as loud as the dual 18" A9-700! Wouldn't that be something!
post #3094 of 6764
HI Kpt_Krunch. Those C$ prices look way too high even for B & M retail. I know people who picked up new DD-18s at around $3,200 and new JL113s at $3750. Still too high for what they are IMO and worth buying almost new at Audiogon or elsewhere and shipping them north.

Across the 2 shootouts we compared the Paradigm Servo v2, Ultra-13, JL113, DD-18, Axiom EP600 and also the smallish EP400.
post #3095 of 6764
Interesting post John, thanks. I will be having a little get together at my house this coming weekend and the focus will be on my F-113's and the PB13 Ultra. Not sure at this point but it may be two of each. I am sure at least one of the attendees will post his take on this provocative sub-ject. Personally, I'm just interested in hearing the Ultra(s).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman View Post

Both subs are excellent performers and each one does some things better than the other so it does become a matter of what attributes are more important. Having had the opportunity to critically listen to both subs in two shootouts over several hours with a half dozen friends I'd make the following observations.

JL113 outperforms the Ultra-13 in articulation, musical presentation, WAF, mid to upper bass output, headroom and bandwidth, attack and decay of bass transients, quality and reliability of amp, lower noise and distortion, one shot equalization, no port chuffing. Contrary to some reports, output as measured using the CEA2010 standard favours the JL113 except when the Ultra-13 is in maximum output mode tuned at 20hz where both subs have the same distortion weighted output.

Ultra-13 bests the JL113 in visceral impact, reproduction of organ music, low bass output and extension, variable tuning, significantly lower price .

Overall the consensus favourite at the shootouts was the JL113 based on sonic quality and overall performance in music and HT but that quality comes at a big difference in price. With all due respect to other people's ranking, the Ultra-13 is a fine sub but its not the equal of the JL113.
post #3096 of 6764
Good stuff Rob. I will be looking forward to you starting a thread and posting your impressions.
post #3097 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman View Post

HI Kpt_Krunch. Those C$ prices look way too high even for B & M retail. I know people who picked up new DD-18s at around $3,200 and new JL113s at $3750. Still too high for what they are IMO and worth buying almost new at Audiogon or elsewhere and shipping them north.

Across the 2 shootouts we compared the Paradigm Servo v2, Ultra-13, JL113, DD-18, Axiom EP600 and also the smallish EP400.

Oh yeah, I know you can get them cheaper. But if you check the MSRP's - the Velo is over 5 grand (the place I saw them at - of course I could talk to the owner...) and I believe it was on JL's site I saw the F113 for $5500 cdn and the Gotham for around $13,000 (can't remember - both way out of my price range).

But that Gotham .... if the Fathom is that good, I can only imagine what the Gotham must sound like. Too bad you guys didn't have that one to test. Though I still doubt it'd beat Jesse's quad 18" IB's in that small bedroom. I think I'd be too afraid to even go in that room - I can't imagine what that bass would do to your internal organs
post #3098 of 6764
for those of you with two F113's do you daisy chain them?

when I wired my theater I ran seperate sub cables from both sub locations to my component room...

...with plans to combine them with a splitter and just plug directly into my Marantz receiver

if i daisy chain them now i have to look at the cable on the floor...

thanks

brad
post #3099 of 6764
You could hook the in-wall cables together and use that as the daisy-chain cable. That might allow you to hide a cable to just one subwoofer easier that a long one between the two.
post #3100 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwhitmore View Post

for those of you with two F113's do you daisy chain them?

when I wired my theater I ran seperate sub cables from both sub locations to my component room...

...with plans to combine them with a splitter and just plug directly into my Marantz receiver

if i daisy chain them now i have to look at the cable on the floor...

thanks

brad

I am using dual F113's in the master/slave config (daisy chained). Note, the cable between them in this config must have balanced connects.

You can just run them as dual master subs running ARO on one or both. For maximum flexibility with your existing cables, you could pick up a Velo SMS-1 and run them in a dual Master config. That would allow you to EQ the summed output of both Fathoms on the SMS-1 and or use ARO to tame a single frequency peak on one or both of the Fathoms.

I ran ARO on the Master Fathom then used the SMS-1 to flatten the rest of the frequencies. The nice thing about the SMS-1 is that it shows you the result of all this EQing in real time.
post #3101 of 6764
How concerned would you be to buy a F113 second hand or even new in box from an unauthorized seller? The JL Audio site clearly states that they will not honor any warranty work without the original reciept from an authorized dealer and that the warranty is not transferable.

I have a local dealer I could buy from but auction prices look tempting.
post #3102 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by markb61659 View Post

How concerned would you be to buy a F113 second hand or even new in box from an unauthorized seller? The JL Audio site clearly states that they will not honor any warranty work without the original reciept from an authorized dealer and that the warranty is not transferable.

I have a local dealer I could buy from but auction prices look tempting.

You would be rolling the dice. Of course if there was a problem, you still can pay for JL to repair it.

If the price was attractive enough, I'd do it.
post #3103 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by markb61659 View Post

How concerned would you be to buy a F113 second hand or even new in box from an unauthorized seller? The JL Audio site clearly states that they will not honor any warranty work without the original reciept from an authorized dealer and that the warranty is not transferable.

I have a local dealer I could buy from but auction prices look tempting.

I agree with Mike. Looking at the price difference between your dealer and the Audiogon price of new or used would be the contributing factor. If buying used, I'd need to look at the seller and check his feedback of course. Personally, I'd go the dealer route unless his selling price is over the top. That's just me.
post #3104 of 6764
just looking for honest recommendations on whether to go with 1 or 2 f113"s..
room size is 16x18, upstairs and above garage... there are no connecting rooms, and the room will be nicely soundproofed... im an avid movie watcher and music listner (some gaming)... i enjoy feeling my movies, but by no means do i want to go overboard... if 1 will do the job very well, then i prefer to save the $$$... just hoping to get some opinions from the experienced!!!
thanks....
post #3105 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by soonercrew View Post

just looking for honest recommendations on whether to go with 1 or 2 f113"s..
room size is 16x18, upstairs and above garage... there are no connecting rooms, and the room will be nicely soundproofed... im an avid movie watcher and music listner (some gaming)... i enjoy feeling my movies, but by no means do i want to go overboard... if 1 will do the job very well, then i prefer to save the $$$... just hoping to get some opinions from the experienced!!!
thanks....

Have you considered twin f112's? In your room, that would be an excellent choice.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
post #3106 of 6764
Manville,

I'm actually thinking of using twin f112s also, instead of one f113.

My room is L-shaped and I don't want to overload the room mode by corner-loading, nor lose some power by only having one driver in a less-loaded position.

What are the virtues of 2 subs exactly?

Please help with reasons for me to go that route--the $$ difference is substantial!

Thanks for the help,
pa.
post #3107 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by soonercrew View Post

just looking for honest recommendations on whether to go with 1 or 2 f113"s..
room size is 16x18, upstairs and above garage... there are no connecting rooms, and the room will be nicely soundproofed... im an avid movie watcher and music listner (some gaming)... i enjoy feeling my movies, but by no means do i want to go overboard... if 1 will do the job very well, then i prefer to save the $$$... just hoping to get some opinions from the experienced!!!
thanks....

I have one f113 in a room almost the exact same size and it really is amazing and fills the room with palpable bass. I've never experienced twin f113s, so I can't say whether it would be overkill, but I know lots of guys here have two and love it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith_JL View Post

Have you considered twin f112's? In your room, that would be an excellent choice.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

I think that's an excellent recommendation. In retrospect, it's probably what I should have done. At this point it's tough to convince the wife I need a second f113.
post #3108 of 6764
Hello,

I would appreciate any comments on these subwoofers. jl f113, velodyne dd-15, revel b15.

Room size is 2100 cubic feet but it is open to kitchen and dining. Total would be < 4000 cubic feet.

It will be played at moderate levels, and music > ht.

lets put equalization and price factors aside......and assume after perfect integration with mains.

Thank you
post #3109 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by allredp View Post

Manville,

I'm actually thinking of using twin f112s also, instead of one f113.

My room is L-shaped and I don't want to overload the room mode by corner-loading, nor lose some power by only having one driver in a less-loaded position.

What are the virtues of 2 subs exactly?

Please help with reasons for me to go that route--the $$ difference is substantial!

Thanks for the help,
pa.

The benefit of well-placed, distributed dual subwoofers (not co-located in the same spot) is smoother frequency response over a wider seating area and also additional headroom (around 3dB more in most cases).

Co-located dual subwoofers simply give you more headroom (about 6dB more).
post #3110 of 6764
I have a 3000 cubic foot room, and rarely play my movies above -15 below reference level. My speakers are bookshelves that I cross over between 80 and 100 hz. I have read here that the F112 does better in the upper frequencies so I am leaning toward that, but not at the risk of over taxing it on bass heavy passages. Do you think at those levels and in that size room that the 112 is enough, or do I need to step up to the 113. By the way, I can't afford two 112s.

Thanks
Greg
post #3111 of 6764
Manville--that is very helpful information!!!

Thanks a lot. I keep telling my buddies about JL home stuff & can't wait for your high frequency speakers to come out...
post #3112 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskin View Post

I have a 3000 cubic foot room, and rarely play my movies above -15 below reference level. My speakers are bookshelves that I cross over between 80 and 100 hz. I have read here that the F112 does better in the upper frequencies so I am leaning toward that, but not at the risk of over taxing it on bass heavy passages. Do you think at those levels and in that size room that the 112 is enough, or do I need to step up to the 113. By the way, I can't afford two 112s.

Thanks
Greg

Greg, the f112 is a pretty capable performer... it only gives up about 3dB to the f113, so if you listen at lower levels as you state you won't be sacrificing anything. I run a pair of f112's myself, and I have never "wished I got a V8".
post #3113 of 6764
I got a Integra 9.8 pre/pro this week and plan on setting everything up this weekend. Should I run the ARO on the Fathom F113s before setting up the Audyssey or the Audyssey before the ARO. I don't know that I will even like the Audyssey but I would like to run it and see how it sounds.
post #3114 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by KX250F View Post

I got a Integra 9.8 pre/pro this week and plan on setting everything up this weekend. Should I run the ARO on the Fathom F113s before setting up the Audyssey or the Audyssey before the ARO. I don't know that I will even like the Audyssey but I would like to run it and see how it sounds.

You should run ARO first.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
post #3115 of 6764
OK, a question about the set up of two f113s. To use them in the master-slave mode, I would have to put one on each side of my screen. I would have the option of putting them in the corners, about 16' apart or move them inside the speakers so that they would be 9' apart. The room is 16' x 25' x 9.5' high. Which is likely better?

Second option is to put the second sub in the back of the room, again in a corner. Since the second row is on an 8" riser, this would put the second sub in a "hole" with three feet from the back of the riser to the back wall. If I go for this setup, I cannot run the subs as master-slave. But, I can eq them separately and then use Audyssey Pro (tech is coming in to do this) to get things right. I wonder if the Audyssey Pro setup would "make up" for not having the master-slave.

Any suggestions? (Manville, HELP)
post #3116 of 6764
My room is 21’X19’X9’ and I prefer this location.

I use the master/salve config, have a Velo SMS-1 and lots of acoustic treatment panels. I have tried outboard of the mains and moving one to the back of the room and there isn’t much difference so I stuck with this symmetrical location. I ran ARO first then used the SMS-1 to flatten the room response. The response is highly variable based upon seat/mic location. I'll be interested in your results with Audyssey.
post #3117 of 6764
What does the response look like before ARO, after ARO and with Audyssey, before the SMS-1?
post #3118 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by kansashick View Post

OK, a question about the set up of two f113s. To use them in the master-slave mode, I would have to put one on each side of my screen. I would have the option of putting them in the corners, about 16' apart or move them inside the speakers so that they would be 9' apart. The room is 16' x 25' x 9.5' high. Which is likely better?

In my experience, inboard would be better (9' apart), but your mileage may vary. In my room I have one in a corner and one about 5 feet from the corner on the same wall as the mains. It works very well.

Quote:


Second option is to put the second sub in the back of the room, again in a corner. Since the second row is on an 8" riser, this would put the second sub in a "hole" with three feet from the back of the riser to the back wall. If I go for this setup, I cannot run the subs as master-slave. But, I can eq them separately and then use Audyssey Pro (tech is coming in to do this) to get things right. I wonder if the Audyssey Pro setup would "make up" for not having the master-slave.

Any suggestions? (Manville, HELP)

I'm not familiar enough with the Audyssey Pro's bass tuning capabilities to give you a solid recommendation. You can always run multiple Fathoms independently and ARO them individually... this often works well and allows you to set the phase of the two subs independently, which can be very useful in a situation where they are at significantly different distances from the main seat.
post #3119 of 6764
Don't mean to get off topic but I have a couple of questions for msmith_JL. When are the new full range JL speakers suppose to be out and how much will they cost?
post #3120 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by kansashick View Post

Second option is to put the second sub in the back of the room, again in a corner. Since the second row is on an 8" riser, this would put the second sub in a "hole" with three feet from the back of the riser to the back wall. If I go for this setup, I cannot run the subs as master-slave. But, I can eq them separately and then use Audyssey Pro (tech is coming in to do this) to get things right. I wonder if the Audyssey Pro setup would "make up" for not having the master-slave.
Any suggestions? (Manville, HELP)

Depends on what you mean by Audyssey Pro. If you mean the stand-alone SEQ, it can EQ two separate subs independently. If you mean the Pro software use with the MultEQ XT in an AVR or prepro, that is unlikely. However, I would still run ARO independently on the two subs and then Audyssey.
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