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JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub - Page 23

post #661 of 6767
HTM1D450mb - daisy chain, master/slave, links the A.R.O.
post #662 of 6767
Quote:


Originally Posted by hifisponge
I can honestly appreciate the technical prowess of these JL subs, and heck I even had more than a passing thought of replacing my Velodyne D15 with one of them, but I had a wake up call today.

You see, I completed my second AV room this week (converted my den into a 5.1 video game room) and just for kicks, I took the new sub out of the game room and placed it next to the DD15 in the main room (the room is 13 x 23 x 9). You know what? At anything but very loud listening levels the little sub held its own with the DD15. Keep in mind the game room sub (a Monitor Audio Radius 720) retails for $799, it uses two 8" drivers and a 250 watt amp. The DD15 is $4000, uses a 15" driver and a 1250 watt amp. The DD15 is probably capable of close to four times the output of the MA 720, yet at normal listening levels and even fairly loud listening levels the little sub sounded just as powerful punchy and weighty as the big one. You should also know that the 13 x 23 room is open to the rest of the house.

The part your missing is that the f113 has more output than the DD-18 with an MSRP that's less than the DD-15 price you quote.

Quote:


I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, I just trying to provide some perspective on the importance of the output capability of the JL subs. Is anyone even using all of it? And do you really need it? I submit that most don't.

I would guess that most f113 owners are enjoying the parade with very good weather and lots of sunshine thank you very much!

Quote:


The bigger issue here is the quality of the bass rather than the max output.

I would agree 100% with you. Quality is most important for me too. If you refer to the OP here and read the thread you find that the OP is a dealer for both Velodyne and JL and states the sound quality of the f113 is better than the DD's. Other people in this thread as well as published reviews have had the same observations. IMO the quality is more accurate on the f113 regardless of volume level.

Quote:


In that regard, I think because the DD line has the built in EQ, it still has the upper hand. Sure the Fathoms have notch filter, but what if you have more than one peak or a shallow valley you want to fill in? Anyway, in the end I think that many would be just fine with something like an SVS sub / Velodyne SMS-1 EQ combo versus a Fathom or a DD for that matter.

Who woulda thunk...???

In this case it would seem the sum of JL's parts are equal to Velodyne's solution as one owner in this thread has sold his SMS-1 finding the ARO room control running two f113's to be as good as the SMS-1.

I agree "many would be just fine with something like an SVS sub / Velodyne SMS-1 EQ combo", but I think most who hear this "combo" or the DD's side by side with the f113 will choose the f113.
post #663 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

I can honestly appreciate the technical prowess of these JL subs, and heck I even had more than a passing thought of replacing my Velodyne D15 with one of them, but I had a wake up call today.

You see, I completed my second AV room this week (converted my den into a 5.1 video game room) and just for kicks, I took the new sub out of the game room and placed it next to the DD15 in the main room (the room is 13 x 23 x 9). You know what? At anything but very loud listening levels the little sub held its own with the DD15. Keep in mind the game room sub (a Monitor Audio Radius 720) retails for $799, it uses two 8" drivers and a 250 watt amp. The DD15 is $4000, uses a 15" driver and a 1250 watt amp. The DD15 is probably capable of close to four times the output of the MA 720, yet at normal listening levels and even fairly loud listening levels the little sub sounded just as powerful punchy and weighty as the big one. You should also know that the 13 x 23 room is open to the rest of the house.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, I just trying to provide some perspective on the importance of the output capability of the JL subs. Is anyone even using all of it? And do you really need it? I submit that most don't.

The bigger issue here is the quality of the bass rather than the max output. In that regard, I think because the DD line has the built in EQ, it still has the upper hand. Sure the Fathoms have notch filter, but what if you have more than one peak or a shallow valley you want to fill in? Anyway, in the end I think that many would be just fine with something like an SVS sub / Velodyne SMS-1 EQ combo versus a Fathom or a DD for that matter.


I missed that wakeup call but I agree with you. It is still early in my eval of the Fathom but thus far my overall subjective impression is that these subs (DD-18 & F113) are very close in performance and build quality. Considering the significant price advantage over the DD-18, the F113 is definitely a sub I would consider.

But when I look at all the factors like the Velo EQ, programmable/upgradeable software and remote control capability, these are features/factors that give an advantage to the DD series over any other sub I have owned.
post #664 of 6767
Lets put one thing to rest,the f113 produces higher quality sub bass than any HGS/DD Velo sub.

I have an HGS18,it is a mighty refined subwoofer,good output and well rounded performer,the f113 outclasses it. From output,passing by sub bass quality to built quality! There is no other way around this...the Fathom subs are best of class.


And yes I enjoy being part of the JL owners parade. f113 and f112 style
post #665 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

But when I look at all the factors like the Velo EQ, programmable/upgradeable software and remote control capability, these are features/factors that give an advantage to the DD series over any other sub I have owned.

Very well said.
post #666 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTM1D450mb View Post

My two new F112s arrived one satin and one gloss

Would you be willing to take a picture of both of them side by side? This would be VERY useful for someone like me whose first prefrence is not the Piano Gloss. I would be nice to see the satin finish.

Thanks!
post #667 of 6767
I have not had a chance to run my fathom at reference level yet so I have no idea what max output is like. What I have been most impressed with is the sq. The sq even at very low volume is better than any sub I have ever listened to. The closest match I believe would be the DD series but the F113 edges them out a little bit in depth and clarity imho. The DDs are fantastic subwoofers none the less.

-Eli
post #668 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJEli View Post

I have not had a chance to run my fathom at reference level yet so I have no idea what max output is like. What I have been most impressed with is the sq. The sq even at very low volume is better than any sub I have ever listened to. The closest match I believe would be the DD series but the F113 edges them out a little bit in depth and clarity imho. The DDs are fantastic subwoofers none the less.

-Eli

This should be the defining argument for any audio purchase,SOUND QUALITY.
post #669 of 6767
??? My head is starting Hurt
LL
LL
LL
post #670 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTM1D450mb View Post

??? My head is starting Hurt

Gorgeous Nautilus center channel! Why why did I have to see this center again? Now I will have to get one,this is one MIGHTY center channel,and 801's with it.

The dual f112's look like mid bass add ons next to a center! WOW

Great system
post #671 of 6767
TheEar, Im total agreement with you about the f113. I Was wondering out of your 30 subs what are your top 5 subs and why?
post #672 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by im the man View Post

TheEar, Im total agreement with you about the f113. I Was wondering out of your 30 subs what are your top 5 subs and why?


My top five subwoofers(the ones I own)

1. JL Audio Fathom f113 best SQ ,all around amazing parts/built quality,high SPL and can dig deeeep small size or not! And priced low(for all you get!) Disapearing act(will not intrude on mains and compromise the musical message)!

2. Velodyne HGS18 very high SQ,good all around quality,can dig deep and do so at a very descent SPL (25Hz and below)

3. Aerial Acoustics SW12 very very high SQ,all around amazing quality(second only to JL),can dig deep and play at a satistisfactory SPL. Near disapearing act!
Had it more output would be number two

4. Revel B15 very good SQ,great built quality,a real powerhouse above 25Hz.

5. JL Audio f112 SQ almost matching the f113,like the f113 amazing built/parts quality. good SPL down deep. Disapearing act.



I have to get better subs,Danley,JL Gotham and what TC Sounds may launch ...what ever comes out that is worthy...
post #673 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

My top five subwoofers(the ones I own)

1. JL Audio Fathom f113 best SQ ,all around amazing parts/built quality,high SPL and can dig deeeep small size or not! And priced low(for all you get!) Disapearing act(will not intrude on mains and compromise the musical message)!

2. Velodyne HGS18 very high SQ,good all around quality,can dig deep and do so at a very descent SPL (25Hz and below)

3. Aerial Acoustics SW12 very very high SQ,all around amazing quality(second only to JL),can dig deep and play at a satistisfactory SPL. Near disapearing act!
Had it more output would be number two

4. Revel B15 very good SQ,great built quality,a real powerhouse above 25Hz.

5. JL Audio f112 SQ almost matching the f113,like the f113 amazing built/parts quality. good SPL down deep. Disapearing act.



I have to get better subs,Danley,JL Gotham and what TC Sounds may launch ...what ever comes out that is worthy...


Cool. I know you didn't ask me but I'll give you my opionion too. I have far less experience than you, but this is how I rate my top 5 in my humble experience.

1. F113, head and shoulders above the rest the longer I have had it the further it seperates itself from the others.

2. SVS PB/12 plus 2, I still maintain this is one of the best value subs in the market, and a month ago I would have said it was the best. Now it looks like the HSU turbo might hold that title, although I have never heard an HSU, the specs and reviews tell the story of this sub; head to head against the SVS's seems like people that have had them both prefer the HSU turbo over the SVS.

3. Klipssch RSW-15, nice sub but does not have the SPL or does it dig as deep as the one's I have previousely mentioned.

4. Paradigm Servo-15, just didn't keep up like I wanted it to. Servo's are very nice though.

5. Supercube Reference, OK for the money it cost.

Again, Im no expert, this just my VERY humble opinion for what it's worth.
post #674 of 6767
What would be the cost for the JL f113 and f112 in canada
if someone can pm me .

TheEAR in a other post you said that in janurary you
would part whit some subs if you sell some of them
i might be intrested.

Just pm me with the model you would like to sell
post #675 of 6767
Does it improve output of the Fathom if you run two unbalanced cables from your sub out using a Y-connector to left and right input on the Fathom? I saw this in a setup today and I could not think of the rationale for doing this.
post #676 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose3000 View Post

Does it improve output of the Fathom if you run two unbalanced cables from your sub out using a Y-connector to left and right input on the Fathom? I saw this in a setup today and I could not think of the rationale for doing this.

NO

The final max output will not change,any variations at the input can be compensated from the pre/pro and on the sub itself(gain).
post #677 of 6767
bbrc,

You know I may have some subs,remind me in January,as I do have to sell some.I am swiming in gear and will have to empty the place a bit. The need for newer and experimentation is strong.

I have yet to decide what I will sell.Note,I am in Montrea Canada.Ideal sale,local sale.
post #678 of 6767
Narrowed down my choices to the F112 and F113. Which one will be better for music reproduction? It is hard to judge in a demo room designed for home theater. I am told the F112 is faster because of the smaller size. Also I am trying to decide on satin versus gloss finish. I only saw the gloss. Is the satin the same quality hard finish with satin clear coat? Also is a sub unbalanced cable required or do standard high quality interconnects work just as well?
post #679 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose3000 View Post

Narrowed down my choices to the F112 and F113. Which one will be better for music reproduction? It is hard to judge in a demo room designed for home theater. I am told the F112 is faster because of the smaller size. Also I am trying to decide on satin versus gloss finish. I only saw the gloss. Is the satin the same quality hard finish with satin clear coat? Also is a sub unbalanced cable required or do standard high quality interconnects work just as well?

Nah nah and nah,the f112 is not faster at all. A real subwoofer works no higher than 80hz.And Below 80hz you will NEVER hear a difference in speed(gain or loss)going from a f112 to an f113.

The f113 is a better buy,more output,more headroom.Will dig a few Hz deeper with authority. Both are fantastic subs.
post #680 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose3000 View Post

I am told the F112 is faster because of the smaller size.

run away from whoever told you that.
post #681 of 6767
TheEar/TJEli, Thanks for your comments. I will go with the F113. Can you address the other questions?

Also I am trying to decide on satin versus gloss finish. I only saw the gloss. Is the satin the same quality hard finish with satin clear coat? Also is a sub unbalanced cable required or do standard high quality interconnects work just as well?
post #682 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith_JL View Post

For dealers in Canada, please contact our Canadian Distributor:
GemSen Distribution
266 Applewood Cres.
Concord, Ontario L4K 4B4
Telephone: 905-660-3110

Email: sales@gemsen.com

To The Bogg, bbrc and other Canadians who might consider contacting GemSen, I would advise you to phone rather than e-mail. I e-mailed them a week ago and haven't heard a peep. I also e-mailed msmith_JL at the same time with a question regarding comparative performance of the f112 and f113 (he did provide his e-mail address earlier in this thread) and have yet to receive a reply, even to suggest that I should redirect my inquiry to someone else in the company.

For someone who has become accustomed to the internet-direct model (Ascend, SVS, ACI among others) this level of responsiveness to a potential customer by a B&M-based company, especially one who posts this on its website, is certainly somewhat sobering, fabulous product or not...
post #683 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose3000 View Post

TheEar/TJEli, Thanks for your comments. I will go with the F113. Can you address the other questions?

Also I am trying to decide on satin versus gloss finish. I only saw the gloss. Is the satin the same quality hard finish with satin clear coat? Also is a sub unbalanced cable required or do standard high quality interconnects work just as well?

Sorry cannot comment here,I have both in gloss.
post #684 of 6767
Quote:


Originally Posted by Moose3000
...Also I am trying to decide on satin versus gloss finish. I only saw the gloss. Is the satin the same quality hard finish with satin clear coat?...

Yes, I don't know if it's clear coat or a poly-acrylic of some sort. The finish is every bit as smooth and nice as the gloss, just not as reflective. Mine is in the front of the HT and I didn't want to pick up light glare/reflection from the screen. You will wish your car had a finish as nice as this.

JL recommends Mequiar's wax and microfiber cloths for cleaning. The Fathoms also come with a pair of white cotton gloves for unpacking etc.
post #685 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryMB View Post

To The Bogg, bbrc and other Canadians who might consider contacting GemSen, I would advise you to phone rather than e-mail.

Hi Gary,
I've sent you an email this morning. and during the last week or so I've spoken with the The Bogg, many many times. I believe theres a few members here I've called on the weekends as well to make sure they were being taken care of and would be happy to work with you personally if you wish. Email sometimes does have it's glitches when it comes to spam filtering and for situations like that I apologize.

Canada is a little behind the USA in terms of having dealers already in place since meeting CSA standards were an important necessity for JL AUDIO, a task often overlooked. JL AUDIO did a great job getting through this slow process rather quickly and now it's time to for us to play a bit of catch up with Canadian Retailers who understandably take a considerable amount of time deciding on products and business partners.

For anyone on the forum who has and inquiries I always welcome emails and phone calls as well:

My direct contact info is:

Tel 905.660.3110 ext 239
Dave Singh
Gem-Sen

Unfortunately the forum is preventing me from posting my email adress at this time but it is linked to my profile.
post #686 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

Lets put one thing to rest,the f113 produces higher quality sub bass than any HGS/DD Velo sub.

I have an HGS18,it is a mighty refined subwoofer,good output and well rounded performer,the f113 outclasses it. From output,passing by sub bass quality to built quality! There is no other way around this...the Fathom subs are best of class.


And yes I enjoy being part of the JL owners parade. f113 and f112 style


Well you know what they say about opinions, don't you?

I did some extensive side by side between the F113 and the DD-18 this weekend. With music, the F113 is every bit as clean and articulate as the DD-18 with perhaps a very slight edge going to the Fathom. But on movies, the DD-18 provides a more visceral experience. I used all of my favorite (and familiar) demo material WOTW, Master & Commander, UB 571, Pearl Harbor attack sequence and Titan AE and the DD-18 was consistently more powerful (room shaking) at all locations in my very large and open space. My room has carpet over slab and the DD-18 simply shakes the foundations and furniture more than the F113 does. I have no doubt that the F113 extends a bit lower but I have found that most LFE is 20HZ and above and that is where the DD-18 shines. I used the same settings on my Parasound Pre and the subs are in virtually the same location. At this point I have to think it is the driver size and or the Velo EQ that makes the difference. I found that the F113's ARO lessened its output and it sounded better when I used the defeat.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the F113. It is a very well made subwoofer and if I didn't already have the DD-18, I might consider the F113 due to its smaller size. But in considering the street prices of the DD-18's and the fact that I would have to purchase an SMS-1 to EQ the Fathom, the price issue becomes a moot point.

Disclaimer, with all the variables at play here, your experience may be different than mine. This was a listening test only. My observations were confirmed by my fiancé who tolerates my hobby because she really enjoys good quality HT . I did not bring out the SPL meter or take any other form of measurements.
post #687 of 6767
Interesting RMK. Especially since Craig did some GP testing of the DD-18 and the f113 and found that not only did the f113 extend lower but beat it by a healty 6dB (almost 7dB) at 25 Hz! I'm wondering if you used the DD-18 EQ to optomize the f113 if your findings might be different. That or even the slightly different positions of the two subs also contributing to you finding the DD-18 being more powerful. The GP measurements really eliminates all that though. And 6dB difference is substantial at 25Hz (and should be easily noticed through listening tests). I mean that's like stacking two DD-18 to equal the f113 in output at that freq. FWIW, he also measured at 20Hz and 16Hz. At 20Hz the f113 beat the DD-18 by about 5dB, and at 16Hz by about 3dB.

Anyway, subjectively Craig also had a different take with the f113 being more powerful from what I recall, but you are the only two we have to go by as far as direct comparisons for the subjective portion. But the GP tests are pretty telling.
Though the dealer (also a Velo dealer) I bought my f113 from did tell me that he has a customer that also has both the DD-18 and the f113 (not Craig he says ) says that in his opinion tha f113 has quite a bit more "slam" which he thought was attributed to the fact of the Servo control that the DD-18 uses.

Here is a link to that post earlier for the GP numbers: GP testing, DD-18 vs f113
post #688 of 6767
I had seen Craigs report and that is why I decided to check out the F113 in my HT. Frankly, I was surprised by my results. Your thoughts on the Velo EQ and or the positioning may have been factors. I suppose without measurements, these impressions of mine are meaningless (hence my disclaimer). None the less, I heard what I heard and the results were clear cut enough for me to reach my conclusion. But I fully acknowledge the amateurish and subjective nature of my test. Caveat Emptor!


Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicFirst View Post

Interesting RMK. Especially since Craig did some GP testing of the DD-18 and the f113 and found that not only did the f113 extend lower but beat it by a healty 6dB (almost 7dB) at 25 Hz! I'm wondering if you used the DD-18 EQ to optomize the f113 if your findings might be different. That or even the slightly different positions of the two subs also contributing to you finding the DD-18 being more powerful. The GP measurements really eliminates all that though. And 6dB difference is substantial at 25Hz. I mean that's like stacking two DD-18 to equal the f113 in output at that freq. FWIW, he also measured at 20Hz and 16Hz. At 20Hz the f113 beat the DD-18 by about 5dB, and at 16Hz by about 3dB.

Anyway, subjectively Craig also had a different take with the f113 being more powerful from what I recall, but you are the only two we have to go by as far as direct comparisons for the subjective portion. But the GP tests are pretty telling.

Here is a link to that post earlier for the GP numbers: GP testing, DD-18 vs f113
post #689 of 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Well you know what they say about opinions, don't you?

I did some extensive side by side between the F113 and the DD-18 this weekend. With music, the F113 is every bit as clean and articulate as the DD-18 with perhaps a very slight edge going to the Fathom. But on movies, the DD-18 provides a more visceral experience. I used all of my favorite (and familiar) demo material WOTW, Master & Commander, UB 571, Pearl Harbor attack sequence and Titan AE and the DD-18 was consistently more powerful (room shaking) at all locations in my very large and open space. My room has carpet over slab and the DD-18 simply shakes the foundations and furniture more than the F113 does. I have no doubt that the F113 extends a bit lower but I have found that most LFE is 20HZ and above and that is where the DD-18 shines. I used the same settings on my Parasound Pre and the subs are in virtually the same location. At this point I have to think it is the driver size and or the Velo EQ that makes the difference. I found that the F113's ARO lessened its output and it sounded better when I used the defeat.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the F113. It is a very well made subwoofer and if I didn't already have the DD-18, I might consider the F113 due to its smaller size. But in considering the street prices of the DD-18's and the fact that I would have to purchase an SMS-1 to EQ the Fathom, the price issue becomes a moot point.

Disclaimer, with all the variables at play here, your experience may be different than mine. This was a listening test only. My observations were confirmed by my fiancé who tolerates my hobby because she really enjoys good quality HT . I did not bring out the SPL meter or take any other form of measurements.

All these test are somewhat subjective, what sounds good to you may not sound good to me. I have no experience with any of Velodyne DD series so I can not speak on that. But I will tell you this, I bought my F113 after reading reviews from Craigsub who has compared this sub directly to the DD18. This was Craig's reference Sub until the F113 came along and beat it. Craig shows some numbers as well, which is always a big plus. Also, TheEAR, who has more Subwoofers than anybody I know personally or have seen on any of these boards. He also maintained that F113 was better than the Velodynes. Then you have Randall Smith, from the Home Theater Authority, who's job is to test Subwoofers. Mr. Smith compared it to his reference SVS PB 12/plus 2, which by the way I have as well in the opposite corner of my room, and picked the F113 over the SVS. Coincidently, this became his new reference Subwoofer as well.

I think your review may be some what biased. I know when I spend that kinda of money on something, I wanna think I have the best too. Just like if the Submersive beats out the F113 I will still want to beleive I have the best sub in this price catergory, the 1-5k. So I try not to post on my personal opinions when it comes to comparing the equipment I have to other equipment because I know it would be biased as well. When I look for new equipment I look to people like Craigsub and TheEAR. People I know that are unbiased.

When your spending this kinda of money we are talking about, people deserve objective opinions not jaded or biased opinions.
post #690 of 6767
My vote is to bring on the double-blind testing with the heavy hitters and let the chips fall where they may.
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