Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 337

Get a receiver and an amp. You won't regret it

I'm still in the funds accumulation phase of that upgrade though so nothing in the short term With the second kid coming I also feel like I should keep a bigger war chest so to speak, so I may postpone the upgrade indefinitely. What I mean is, don't hold your breath!

Booooo. (As I exhale and gasp for air)

Are there former Hsu owners that came to the SVS side? My old boss loves his PC12 and swears by it.

Cool, we are in the same page now.

The lack of review at this moment might be the main reason why SVS is willing to take chances on giving this risk free 45 days in home trial. So, people can actually test the speakers by themselves (as mentioned by Ed before). Really tempting opportunity for those looking for a nice set of speakers on that price range.

That's an interesting idea that you posted right there; but it might be a nightmare to implement something like that, specially when most companies are trying to reduce production/logistic costs by keeping "standard" products (without having to customize things depending on your specific configurations). Even if you are paying extra for those things, it just complicate things at the end.

Nonetheless, an interesting idea indeed.

The best set-up for the Ultra Tower really depends on the sophistication of the digital bass management set-up in the AVR. If the AVR has the ability to set individual crossover frequencies for each channel, then 40 Hz would be a good choice, as would full-band. OTOH if the AVR only has a single global crossover which applies to all channels (and this still includes a great deal of even new AVR models), then full-band is the best choice for the Ultra Tower, since the crossover required for all other channels would typically be 60-80 Hz, which would be a complete waste of the Ultra Tower's stellar bass extension/output capabilities.

As most A/V forum veterans will attest, I'm a big fan of high passing even large towers. But most large towers pick-up their toys and go home around 40-45 Hz. The Ultra Tower really does have usable output/extension to the upper 20 Hz region in-room, and it really enhances the overall bass response when run on full-range. And for me to recommend this - that's saying something. I'm not just toeing the company line - the Ultra Tower really does have awesome bass. With that said, there are potential downsides to running any mains on full-range, like missing uber deep content in the 14-28 Hz octave which would otherwise be re-routed to the subwoofer. So each scenario should be evaluated on its own merits and particulars, especially what sub is in the system and how capable it is.

While an external amp will always improve performance with any high-end speaker and I'm certainly a fan of them (and use monoblocks in my own reference HT), we've run the Ultra Tower on full-range with typical higher-end AVRs with no problems at all.

Thanks for the precision Ed! The way you talk about them, those towers seem to be really special.

Then again I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean. Are you saying that without an AVR that can do a per-speaker crossover, you are actually advising against using a subwoofer with the Ultras towers? Or simply that they should be set to Large on top of an existing subwoofer? Wouldn't that be tricky as hell to set up correctly? I guess it could be done correctly with a sufficiently flexible EQ solution.

Hi Neutro -

For 2-channel music applications, the Ultra Tower doesn't require a subwoofer, unless you are a pipe organ aficionado.

For HT applications with a subwoofer:

- If the AVR only has a single global crossover for all speakers, run the Ultra Tower on full-range.

- If the AVR can assign individual crossovers to each channel, run the Ultra Tower with a 40 Hz crossover, or on full-range, depending on the extension/output capabilities of the subwoofer in the system.

that reminds me of my big beef that there are some AVRs that still have a global crossover setting for all speakers, what is this 1995? If you are mixing and matching speakers, you really shouldn't buy a receiver that you have to make compromises by running your tower full range and some of bass goes into a blackhole.

My Pioneer has a global crossover and it looks like all of their new models this year still do, so it seems that they will never change this. I didn't even realize what any of this was until recently (2 years after I bought it though lol).

Yeah, I'm "stuck" with a Pioneer receiver, with a single crossover frequency and calibration (EQ) that doesn't extend to the sub frequencies (and is simply an adjustment of 6 standard EQ bands). To be fair, with my setup, I prefer that my SVS subs take charge of everything below 100 Hz, and LFE is all sent to the subs anyway. I wouldn't use the per-speaker crossover values anyway.

Next receiver will have:

• Audyssey MultEQ XT32 -- I must try that as everyone and their grandma say it's the best calibration algorithm available. However I'm not sure I'll pay a huge premium to have SubEQ HT even if I could benefit from it.
• Pre outs
• Network standby (wake on LAN)
• AirPlay and MHL
• A gazillion HDMI inputs

If I had to buy one right now it probably would be the Onkyo TX-NR818 but hey, receivers with this feature set won't get more expensive with time, so I can wait

One feature that I'd like and haven't seen anywhere is the capability to leave headphones plugged in and *still* have sound come through the speakers. It would be tremendously useful with wireless headphones. Usually people suggest that I use an analog stereo output instead of the headphone jack, but analog outputs only output analog content, not digital. Typically the headphone output is the only output where multichannel digital inputs are downmixed to analog stereo, and having a plug in the jack cuts the speakers, even on very expensive receivers.

Since we have such similar setups, do you find that bass is lacking when playing music in stereo? I have my RC-70s set to "Small" and the PB-1000 is running 3db hot and the crossover is set to 100hz, but I still feel like the sub is barely there during music. It is great during games and blu-rays though.

The Onkyo TX-NR818 fits the bill on all of your requirements, except for Airplay. Perhaps the next year's model replacing it would add that too, as Onkyo seems to have AirPlay enabled receivers elsewhere globally. I have the Onkyo 818, and the MultiEQ-XT32 (or its specific implementation on the 818) seems to be really sensitive to the placement of the mic, much more than the MultiEQ XT implementations on Denon/Marantz receivers I've tried - using the same setup and mic positions. When I do get the mix right, it is definitely worth the price premium over MultiEQ XT.

I know - major pet peeve of mine too, warp. And some of the biggest names still use a single global crossover for all channels, and they also don't EQ the subwoofer channel.

I did not realize the 818 had no AirPlay; I kind of just assumed it would have it as it's present in much cheaper competitors. Then again, I'm not set on AirPlay as it's Apple-only and we run a mixed ecosystem of mobile devices at home My ultimate goal would be to be able to 1) wake up the receiver using any mobile device and 2) tell it to play whatever I'm listening to with the mobile device 3) without having to turn the TV on a browse an on-screen GUI... sometimes I just don't want to bask in plasma light...

First point requires network standby / wake-on-LAN capabilities. Second can be accomplished with different technologies. As the 818 is also a DLNA client, it could probably be done without AirPlay.

I have no qualms about naming those biggest names

That being said I'm not 100% sure about MultEQ XT32 for EQing the sub. I heard it's fantastic but basically it can only EQ flat. In that regard, cheap solutions like the BFD or MiniDSP can be more flexible. I wonder if mixing Audyssey and another EQing device is a good idea, and if so, in which order this should be done.

I've read that sometimes, when there's a large peak in the frequency response, Audyssey can be fooled as it adjusts level first and then finds and applies the EQ filter that squashes the peak. Since the level was adjusted with the peak, the resulting, EQed FR is often set at an incorrectly low level. This is basically what happened to me with my house curve EQ -- trying to set the sub level with either an SPL or the receiver is a recipe for disaster if the FR is not flat first. So basically it looks like a good thing to first take care of the major peaks with an external EQ solution, then run Audyssey for correct results.

Maybe I'm over-thinking this but I'm hesitating between putting more money in my EQ setup buying a MiniDSP, or even maybe an Antimode Dual Core, or putting the money towards the XT32 receiver.

When you're plying movies, the LFE channel can get 10 dB louder than the other channels. This might explain why the sub is great in games and blu-rays.

The problem you're describing may have many sources but since I had the same until last week with dual PC12-Pluses in a small room, I can confirm it's not necessarily for lack of subwoofage. What you may be experiencing could be a dip in your in-room frequency response between, say, 40 Hz and your crossover. Below 40 Hz are the rumble-like effects that are often used in games in movies, so maybe the sub level at those frequencies is ok (or even boosted, which would compensate the dip above 40 Hz when measuring the average level).

Since you have a Pioneer AVR, that means your sub output is not EQed. You may have lots to gain by EQing your sub properly. But first step would be to re-locate your sub if possible to see if other locations provide a more pleasing frequency response. If that fails, I'd advise you to buy an SPL meter and/or a mic, install the REW software on a laptop, and try to measure the frequency response in your room.

Hi guys.

I will encourage the thread with a video I made this afternoon of my PB12-Plus DSP, a reference to the movie level battleship.
Edited by Lecter83 - 3/12/13 at 3:30pm

Someone can tell me that will not let me put the video?

It seems that the post is blank.

I'm not sure why it doesn't work... maybe a size limit or movie format thing. Can you upload your video to Youtube and give us the link instead?

Indeed'm getting the url of the video, I uploaded it to youtube.
I will try now

A reference level and barely breaks a sweat. On my left is 10m2 room, there are plenty of headroom.

In the video you see specks of dust, every time the sub moves air, dust stirring beneath the seats (is a small slit and falls broom or vacuum cleaner to clean)

Gotta love subwoofer porn

BTW guys I just reviewed my EQ to remove the downward slope I had in my FR from 60 Hz to 20 Hz. It digs with even more authority now without negative impact on quality for music. I had to lower the sub pre out volume by 1 dB to compensate, but I'm closing in on perfect EQ I think

Also, it looks like I'm not the only one (close to) clipping the BFD. It seems that some AVRs have sub pre outs at higher levels than others, and for those, the high signal setting (+10 dBu) of the BFD is more appropriate than the generally recommended low-signal setting (-4 dBu). I'll have to try that but that may mean re-checking levels for both subs and the AVR. Not sure if that setting actually attenuates the output of the BFD or if its simply changes the ADC/DAC range. Still looking at the MiniDSP-- this might be my HT-related purchase of the month

I downloaded Jindrak's Ultimate Bass Demo Disc last week and since I don't have (nor particularly want) a blu-ray burner and 50 GB blank media, I managed to set up XBMC 12 ("Frodo") to bitstream audio to my receiver from a laptop with an HDMI output. It works! I hope I'll be able to check the included scenes soon at full volume... If any one wants a hint on how to setup XBMC 12 to bitstream HD audio to the receiver, just ask.

I'm a bit slow today, were you boosting the higher freq's (or, similarly cutting the response ie: -1@60hz, -2@50hz, -3@40hz....-n@Nhz)?

The house curve I had applied originally was boosting the lower-end, with 20-30 Hz about +6dB with respect to 80 Hz. I realized recently that this, combined with automatic level adjustment in the AVR and/or manual level adjustment with an SPL meter without taking the house curve into account, had created a huge dip between about 45 and 80 Hz. That dip was the root cause of my dissatisfaction using my Pluses, as I found out two weekends ago. In short, the SPL or AVR mic measures the average level of a wide-band signal sent to the sub, but that average level corresponds to about mid-house-curve. So mid-house-curve (~45 Hz) was set at the level of the mains, and anything above that (~45-80 Hz) was under the level of the mains by a few dBs.

Two weekends ago I decided to start from scratch and EQ flat. I managed something quite nice, which immediately sounded *much* better for music. I immediately remembered how it was with my SB12 and now it sounds the same, except of course it can go louder. I posted the following EQ curve (final one is red -- blue curve is without EQ, green curve is REW's first-try result).



So it's quite nice but it lacked a bit of punch in the low end. This is due to me being accustomed to the +6dB boost but also the slight downward slope above 20 Hz (the BFD cannot EQ below 20 Hz, hence the intact port resonance at 17 Hz). Now I adjusted that and gained low-end punch. Will post EQ later, but it looks like a very slight slope in the opposite direction. I had to lower the sub pre out a bit to compensate for that.

My whole point is that EQ does change how a sub sounds *a lot*, and if a non-flat EQ is used, sub level should be adjusted either by ear, or using a FR measurement.
Edited by neutro - 3/13/13 at 1:38pm

I've had my SB12-NSD for three weeks now, but i haven't been "wowed" yet. i know i must be doing something wrong. I have a bedroom set-up so the room is not large, less than 1500cu. ft., but i think i need to move at least one more piece of furniture out of the way. I received my new center channel last night and ran XT32 again on my Onkyo 818. it almost sounds as if the sub is not there at all. I bumped up the crossovers to 80Hz for fronts as Audyssey had them at 40Hz. I also set the LPF at 80Hz. Both helped, but i feel that it's still not enough. I know my room is wonky and my primary listening position is not the best bass location. I have tried a subcrawl (of sorts), but with limited placement options, I felt very discouraged.

XT32 set all the channels way down, -5db for L, -7 db for C, -3.5db R and -2.5db for the sub. I don't completely understand that, but figuring adding 5db to my normal listening level of -25.0 to -20.0db would couteract that. IIRC, the Onyko manual also states that reference level for Rock music is +15db (I predominently listen to Rush via CD, FLAC or Spotify), does that have anything to do with my perceived lack of sound and punch from my sub? I have listened with Dynamic EQ both on and off. i've tried reading this and many other suggestion threads and feel like i'm totally misusing my $650 piece of equipment.

Turning the gain way up on the sub has an effect, but it seems to be overpowering. Not that is the worst situation, since I got into car audio in my impressionable early 20s near Miami when car audio was really starting to take off, sticking my head in a Chevy Blazer with 8x 15" woofers pumping a DJ Magic Mike CD wasn't unheard of, but now I'm looking for quality over quantity. Maybe I just don't know what quality should sound like.

Current set-up.
Onkyo 818
SVS SB12-NSD
Infinity Primus
P363 Front
PC351 Center
PC163 Surrounds
Sony Bravia 40" LCD, Bluray and CD player

this should be at 120Hz....that should make a big difference

I have a pretty similar system with Infinity Primus speakers as well... I found using a 100Hz crossover for the fronts got a little more punch I was looking for.
Also placement of the sub can have a HUGE impact. Have you done the sub crawl to see if there is a better location for your SB12?

Indeed it should have an impact. But I'm suspecting something else.

RPGMasta, bear with me. I had the SB12 in a similar room (~1600 cu ft) and it took me a while to set it up to outstanding results. Then I upgraded to dual PC12-Pluses. Just in terms of wattage, this is 4x the single SB12. But it took me weeks of fiddling around to get to a result that matched what I was able to squeeze out of the SB12. I don't want to discourage you by telling that, just make you realize that obtaining outstanding results can be surprisingly difficult at times.

The SB12 should be able to shine in that environment, and furniture is more or less transparent at the wavelengths the SB12 excels at. One of the problem will small rooms is room modes, that are often more pronounced. Typically in such a room you'll have at least one big peak and/or one big dip in the frequency response, entirely due to the room shape. Also unless you listen close to a boundary, the frequency response will be strongly dependent upon listening position. Did you notice parts of the room where bass is much stronger?

What often happens with automatic EQ in AVRs (XT32 or other algorithms) is that sub level is first set, then EQed is performed. This may severely skew the level setting. Here's an example. My room had a +9 dB peak at 45 Hz (see the pic a few posts above -- blue curve). Those kinds of peaks sound like the sub can produce only one note, as any sound close to the peak frequency is amplified and all others are almost inaudible in comparison. When level is set with that kind of frequency response, most of the level measurement is due to acoustic energy at or around this peak frequency. The sub level is lowered across the board first to match -- in average -- the main's level. Then the EQ cuts the peak (e.g. by applying a -9 dB wide-band cut at 45 Hz), removing a large part of the acoustic energy that was measured. The sub output is now EQed, but its average level is now way below what it was before.

What I suggest is that, if possible with XT32, you perform the channel level adjustment step alone after EQing. Alternatively, just raise the sub pre out level on the AVR, or the sub's gain, and see if it improves things. In my case, difference was literally night and day, and even at low volumes, bass is fantastic now. But I want to stress: EQ issues had me regretting dual Pluses over my SB12 -- that's how bad things can be just because of inadequate EQ.

I've been there. With small rooms, there's seldom space to spare, and very few possible sub locations. Just stick to the one that sounds best, if possible close to a corner. Corners will reinforce bass but introduce peaks and dips in the frequency response. But since your sub channel is EQed, you should be able to get a good result out of that. Then adjust the sub's level to your taste after EQ.

Typically this is due to a peak such as the one I described above. Raising the volume is not pleasing as frequencies close to the peak are overpowering, and you *still* don't hear the rest correctly. Another symptom of this is that some material will sound ok while other will be unlistenable due to the peak. If this is after running XT32, maybe it has trouble taming one of the peaks. Or maybe the mic was not placed at your usual listening position, or the sub was moved (even just a bit) after running XT32. You say that you raised your crossover from 40 Hz to 80 Hz. Did you run XT32 again after that? If not, then XT32 only EQed your sub up to 40 Hz... I'm not familiar with XT32 but you should be able to re-run it and tell it not to change the crossover?

If you have a laptop and don't mind paying for a mic you could try the famous REW software to record a frequency response and see how bad the situation is. I hate suggesting to someone to spend even more money when they're not satisfied with their investment, but maybe you could benefit with an external EQ solution. But XT32 *should* do the job. Does it present you with before / after frequency response graphs? Do they look flat?

I think you'll know it when you'll hear it. When everything sounds good, any material is pure bliss. Jazz will treat you with punchy contrabass attacks and deep resonances; rock will feature kick drums like you're on the stage; you'll bask in bass bliss hearing the deep notes in ambient electronic music; etc.

Best of luck, and keep us posted with your results. I would also advise contacting SVS, they may provide good hints to make the SB12 shine. You can try other subs but as you describe your problem, I doubt this will fix anything, unless by sheer luck (winner sub placement, sub with a FR that counteracts your room's, etc.).
Edited by neutro - 3/14/13 at 7:16am

Thanks for the in depth response, neutro. I am at work and paying from my phone, so quoting and formatting won't be precise.

I set the LPF at 80Hz when reading a link provided to a suggestion from a Dolby employee and another person whom I've forgotten. It was an improvement before my latest XT32 run. I haven't changed back to 120Hz to hear yet.

I'm not against more hardware for proper sound, but haven't found a BFD yet.

I might be using XT32 incorrectly, but it sets the crossovers after calculation. I only have options to save or cancel. After waiting through 83-4 measurements, I didn't want to hit cancel. It set Front to 40Hz, Center to 120Hza and surrounds to 50Hz.

I only have an SPL on my phone. Radio Shack looks at me crazy when I asked them if they had one. Will order from Amazon methinks.

My main computer also resides in the room and I installed REW last night. Have gotten a mic they recommend though.