Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 338

The LPF needs to be set at 120. This passes all available LFE information to your sub. Setting it lower will further reduce the potential output of your sub.

Try setting your mains to 60 or even 80hz, as this would increase the frequencies sent to your sub. 40hz setting for your mains further limits SB12's involvement with the sound. I would also set your surround xover to the same value as your mains.

Set your SB12's gain to 12'clock and listen to a track you're very familiar with that has good musical bass (Morph the Cat by Fagen or Vogue by Madonna are a couple that I've used to evaluate bass).

Audyssey states they find the -3db point of speakers, and then the AVR manufacturers use that info to determine speaker size/crossover. Chris K. (Audyssey CTO) always recommends setting all speakers to small, and an 80 hz or higher crossover (it is fine to increase the crossover frequency, but trying to set the speaker for a lower crossover point than recommended is discouraged). This can be done in the AVR's menus after the calibration is done and does not require you to rerun the calibration.

Infinity lists the FR of your center as being -3 at 80hz, so I am a little surprised that Audyssey is coming back with a 120hz crossover. Is the center sitting on a shelf or stand? If so, is it pulled all the way forward or isit sitting closer to the wall (pushed back from the edge)? Sometimes, either using an isolation items such as Auralex MoPad's and/or bring the speaker all the way to the front can help limit/eliminate some unwanted reflections that may be causing destructive interference. This would be a bit low frequency for that, but I've seen some weird floor-bounce/cabinet interactions before. It may be worthwhile to try running Audyssey again at some point if you change the position of the center.

I'd try running a crossover for the mains at 80-100hz to see if that helps improve your results, as well as setting the LFE's LPF at 120hz. The plus side is that this is free, and can be done very quickly/easily through the AVR. If you are still not getting the response you want, turn off Audyssey and try playing around with new positions/distances for the front speakers, sub, and seating areas as these changes can/do create gigantic swings in performance. Once you have what you consider to be the optimal realistic positions, run the speaker setup/EQ prcedure again. A great guide on using Audyssey is available here from a fellow AVS'er.


OT: Voltron...nice. I loved that show as a kid.

Thanks for the tips. I have set all crossovers to 80Hz already. I will definitely increase the gain.
Edited by RPGMasta - 3/14/13 at 10:50am

I'm with Accuphase on all his points. The SB12 will perform better than your mains way above 40 Hz. In fact, below 40 Hz is rumble zone The 40-80 Hz octave contains very interesting bass textures, and above that, punch and attack. The case against using a higher crossover (e.g. 120 Hz) is simply that bass becomes more localizable above about 80 Hz. But I'm quite happy with my 100 Hz crossover (with towers "rated" down to 36 Hz), although the symmetric positioning of my dual subs will alleviate localization issues. I think Audyssey, YPAO, MCACC, etc. set crossovers very low because most of the time, the mains are better at handling about anything except the very low frequencies than the typical sub.

In Audyssey the crossover is per-channel. The 80 Hz figure comes from the localization issue mentioned above. Setting crossover to 80 Hz across the board would be ok, except notably for the LFE channel. The LFE channel is the .1 channel and basically contains mono special effects that are typically played 10 dB louder than the other channels and contains frequency content up to 120 Hz. Those waveforms are meant to be played on the sub. In Audyssey-equipped AVRs, you *can* send the upper frequencies of the LFE channel to your mains, but we recommend using 120 Hz (i.e. all the LFE content) as a crossover frequency *for the LFE channel*. Other channels are typically set at 80 Hz unless they are satellites that cut off higher than that.

Are you in the US or elsewhere (e.g. Canada)? Your options are very different depending on your location. That being said: the BFD is inexpensive and effective, but you *shouldn't* really need it with an XT32 receiver unless you want more flexibility (e.g. non-flat EQ).

I can understand not wanting to cancel Sorry, I'm really not familiar with Audyssey. I wish I was But there *ought* to be a way to force crossover frequency at 80 Hz for the mains and surrounds. Heck, even my Pioneer AVR can do that, and it has a single crossover across all channels and doesn't even EQ the sub output. Maybe someone else can chime in.

SPL meters on phones have limited reliability. The famous RadioShack SPL is easy to use and relatively inexpensive, and also very well known, with available calibration curves. It has an RCA out so that it can act as a calibrated mic with the appropriate calibration files. Many find that there are too much variations between individual units for that model to be reliable though, and the Behringer ECM8000 is probably the most recommended mic. I think it will need a mic amp though, and is not an SPL meter so the FR measurements it will produce are on a relative scale only.

Great! Follow the instructions closely (first calibrate your sound card) and post some of your measurements before / after XT32. But first step should be to set a 120 Hz crossover on the LFE channel (and center channel if it doesn't go as low as 80 Hz), and 80 Hz elsewhere.

Thanks again to all who offered hints and tips. I have tried to find the post or article i read that suggested we use 80Hz LPF, but i cannot. I have changed back to 120Hz, increased the sub channel in the AVR menu by 6db as well as my LCR by 3db, turned the gain to halfway on the sub (or 12 o'clock). all seemed to provide more bass, but not physical effects. then, when i was still disappointed after cranking several bass heavy tracks like Harlem Shake, Dynamix II's Purple Beats, T.I. and Justin Timberlake's Dead and Gone, Kanye's Mercy and D12's Rap Game, i decided that i would remove the Y splitter i installed at the suggestion of many posters in the Subwoofer forum. HUGE HUGE HUGE difference. Either I plugged the RCAs into the wrong jacks (don't think so?) or the splitter is damaged, but what a tremendous increase in output and "feeling" the bass. I'm not feeling as much in the chest thump like many posters claim, but more i feel it bouncing around in my ear canal.

I will now play Rush's Clockwork Angels as several of the tracks have a low, super rumble prolonged bass note that is very pleasing.

Voltron was pre-Transformers greatness! You can watch full episodes on YouTube if you want a blast from the past, though i doubt they've encoded a 5.1 track

I'm really glad you found the problem RPGMasta... I'd bet on a damaged component in that case. Enjoy your bass... As for chest thump, as discussed earlier in this thread, you have to heavily boost upper bass by several dBs and listen quite loud to have the feeling you get in clubs for example.

Excited so posting here. Just placed my order for dual PB12-NSD subs which will replace my dual klipsch Sub 12. Very excited!

I was saying to myself "this thread is too quiet"... Congrats! Report here when you get them, to boast or get setup tips... We also like pictures

That's awesome. U will be having some true earth shaking effects in ur home.

Let us know ur comments when u get them.

Trust me ur in for a surprise !!!

Sweet.........it is really cool that you are shooting for dual subs right away......congrats!

Thanks for the kind words everybody; my wife and I just purchased our first home and I finally have a room to call my own in the basement. Here are the before shots. Next is a 70 inch TV to hang on the wall.



The panorama got weird in the TV

Can't wait to show the after shots. Suggestions are appreciated.

The speakers are B&W 683 fronts, HTM61 center and the surrounds are 685s

What tv stand is that?????

It's a salamander synergy series. Quad version

http://www.salamanderdesigns.com/syn/quads.jsp
http://www.amazon.com/Salamander-Designs-SB248B-Synergy-Cabinet/dp/B0074GCWEU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1363663254&sr=8-2&keywords=salamander+quad

Nice stand. I've had my triple twenty for about 7.5 years now and it still looks great. I can (and do when needed) stand on it when swapping out TV's and it doesn't even blink. This is saying something as I'm 6'5" and almost 270 lb's.

Congrat's on the new house and subs. You have a very nice looking room to work with.

Sweeeeeeeeeet

I would love a room like that. Also a TV stand like that. Probably the speakers too.

***

In other news, I'm slowly going through Jindrak's Ultimate Bass Demo Disk with my new EQ and the results are fantastic. So many scenes for which I'd never pay the blu-ray but which are worth the 30 sec of bass. The server room scene in Pulse is incredible.

I also watched a family movie this weekend at moderate volume (-24 dB from ref): "Brave". Even at moderate volume, the thumps of the horse's hooves were nice and punchy. I guess I'm re-discovering my subs and getting more and more enthusiastic.

I agree. I'm contemplating trading up my SB13-plus in cherry to dual SB13-ultra. This is to get a matching pair.

Anyone get any concrete info on what changed performance wise? The sb13-plus I have is great but it was really under the radar. The sb13-ultra are getting rave reviews! Is it just better marketing?

The good news, the less sonic conflict one has with speakers, subs and room acoustics, the lower one can go on the MVC due to a lack of cancellation. Last night we watched a Matt Dillon (starred, written and directed by) movie with the MVC at -30dB and to us, it was on the edge of being loud.

"City of Ghosts" A very excellent, done differently (dare I say intelligently) movie of intrigue and betrayal of friendship in an exotic land.

"City of Ghosts" trailer.

We found this movie on Comcast's, Encore, premium HD movie channel selection.

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about time!! haha JK...very happy to hear you are finally feeling the difference....damn house curves lol!! now you must watch a lot of scenes over again haha..

I think the older SB13-Plus and newer SB13-Ultras are more or less identical save for the finish. So I'd say marketing

Yes, about time, however I had very little of it to spend tuning the duals. As for the house curves, the idea was good but I did not adjust levels correctly after. So next step *may be* restoring some of that house curve. I think doing so would be much easier on another EQing platform -- namely one that allows an independent volume setting. So I'm pondering getting the MiniDSP. On the other hand, the BFD is sitting there and doing a great job right now, so I'm postponing the decision. I'd love trying an Antimode 8033S but I feel the price tag is quite steep at $450 -- better put that toward a new receiver. And don't get me started about the Antimode Dual Core

You're right about listening to scenes over again. When it comes to very low LFEs, I had everything right already so there isn't much difference. The difference is in the middle- and upper-bass where everything is much punchier now. Music is fantastic again for all material I tried although "Bass, I Love You" doesn't dig as deep as before due to the 20 Hz region not being hot by 6 dB.

I can't remember the specific scene but browsing through Jindrak's demo disk, I encountered effects I had never heard before. In one of them I felt sucked in instead of slammed back. You can believe it or not

Also, I now use XBMC (12) to play the clips (I didn't bother to burn them to BD-50 media) and XBMC takes care of *all* of them and is able to bitstream to the receiver. That is super nice.

From personal experience, just saying, experience is a terrible mistress as simultaneously, experience gives and abuses your love.

I love our Marantz, SR5007 but would love to have a Denon, 4311ci for Audyssey, MultEQ XT32 and the stereo subwoofer pre-outs. Not so sure of the Onkyo, TX NR818 due to reliability issues.

As sensitive and responsive as our speakers are, when playing a fast paced action seqence close to reference levels, I can hear the sonic life being sucked out of the capacitors as the sound track demands more then the AVR is capable of.

We have and I love the ease and use of the DSPeaker, Anti-mode, 8033S II combined with MultEQ XT but for all the wonder and awe that I have, the miniDSP with program module and interconnectivity with REW, is looking like a complex and time consuming buy but more and more, due to it's versatility, is looking to be the better buy. I hate chasing Rainbows cause I never seem to catch that illusive pot of gold.

My recommendation, based on your above and the stated personal experience, if the BFD is giving you flat FR curves, be happy. If you're bored and have a couple hundred bucks burning a hole in your pocket and nowhere else to go, with appropriate programming module, get the miniDSP and write it off as entertainment. Take one for the Gipper and let us know what you think of the miniDSP.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 3/19/13 at 12:28pm

Well one thing is certain, everything in that department is written off as entertainment anyway

I'm pretty flexible with the BFD already but ease of use -- tinkering -- looks like it would be easier on the MiniDSP.

I guess next time I rage because I can't remember how to upload PEQ parameters to an already used preset on the BFD, I'll impulse-buy a MiniDSP and tell you how it is

.....

Did you ever consider keeping the two Klipsch Sub 12's in your setup?
Having four subs in the mix, will address both the horizontal and vertical standing waves
in your room, much better than just having two subs.

I also have dual PB12-NSD subs in my HT, combined with dual BIC America F12 subs.
Audyssey MultEQ XT32, with Sub EQ HT, did a superb job of blending the two ported
and the two sealed subs, seamlessly together.

However, the F12's don't go very deep and I was concerned that Audyssey, was bringing
the output of my PB12's down, to there level.
So I did a little experiment, I disconnected the two F12's and ran Audyssey again,
with just the dual PB12's' connected to Sub 1 and Sub 2.
To my amazement, gone was that solid foundation of bass feeling I had, running
four subwoofers.

So now I am back to running four subs.
Give some thought to running four subwoofers, it makes a BIG difference.

I have a couple of questions for you if you don"t mind. I just purchased the PB12-nsd to replace my BIC f12. I wanted to incorporate the F12 in the system but was afraid Audyssey would bring the PB "up" to the BIC levels. Do you think I can do this without losing the deep bass of the PB? Is there anything special I should do while running Audyssey? I have the Dennon 1612, so no XT32 or dual hookups. I planned on just using a splitter. Any advice would be appreciated.

I'd maybe pickup an Anti-Mode 8033S or 8033C, that can equalize 4 subs without issue. That would save you having to buy an entire new reciever.

The last picture shows how to connect 4 subs:
http://www.dspeaker.com/en/technology/anti-mode-technology/anti-mode-connection-examples.shtml

The Anti-Mode will EQ each pair seperately, I think that would get you the best sound out of those subs.

Sorry, I don"t think I was very clear on I what I have. I only have 1 Bic F12 and 1 PB12-NSD. I just wondered if pairing these together would gain me anything. If so, how to go about it properly..Do you think a sub equalizer would be the best way to go?

I never thought about it, I planned on replacing my two sub 12s for a single larger sub because my moving year after year has taken a toll on them. I was afraid I would be disappointed with a single and just went for duals. I am basically expecting to throw the old klipsch subs away. Knobs are broken, lights are out, etc. I will give 4 a try before I toss them, but I just don't want the beaten and battered klipsch subs in my home anymore. If I like what I hear, I may go for a third or fourth pn12-nsd. Thanks for the advice.

WOW!!!

Didn't know your Klipsch subs were in such horrible condition.

They aren't horrible, they work fine, but they have some patina